Help: New Ballast blowing the fuse

[jimmyd42]

Im going nuts over a problem with fuses getting blown:

A good friend of mine, who happens to be medical marijuana patient, has two grow rooms, one for veg and one for flowering.

Both rooms have 1 18" fan, a 8" inline fan aswell as lamps:
- room 1 has a 1000 watt magnetic ballast + lamp
- room 2 has a 600 watt digital apollo ballast + lamp

Both rooms run on separate 15A fuses.

Since the 600 watt room has been added, the fuse of the 1000 watt lamp randomly gets blown, sometimes every 5 minutes, sometimes every other day.

Both systems are running through surge protected power strips.

When either one of the lamps is turned off but everything else is running, its working fine.

Whats happening here? How can both ballasts influence each other on different circuits? Or am I missing something?

 

[justanotherbozo]

i can't answer your question i'm afraid but have you considered a smaller light for veg, there's no way you need a 600 to veg for a 1000, i flower in a 4 x 4 with a single barebulb 600 and i veg with nothing but 160watts of shop light fluoro's and get all the growth i need.

...i live in an older house with crappy electricals so i have to limit myself accordingly, that's why i have to flower with a 600 rather than a 1000 or two stacked 600s.

anyway, that may be ONE answer, that you lighten your overall load.

peace, bozo

btw, here is a thread on electrical stuff that may be of some help.

[URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867"]Growroom Electricity and Wiring[/url]

...oh, and welcome to the site and the hobby.

 

[rives]

Sounds pretty odd.

First, let's clarify that the separate circuits actually do feed the rooms that they are supposed to - each lamp goes off independently when the associated fuse is pulled?

The circuits are dedicated to each room? That is, they feed nothing else in the house?

Are these actually fuses, or are they circuit breakers?

If the house is actually wired the way that you think that is, about the only scenario that I can come up with to explain it would be that the combined load is causing sufficient voltage drop that the current goes up. The 1000w circuit, being more heavily loaded, then bumps over the limit and blows the fuse. Pretty long reach for that explanation, though. I would lean toward something else going on. Do you have an ammeter, a voltmeter, and know how to use them?

 

[jimmyd42]

Thanks for your replies!

I checked the circuits, and yes, they are independent. I can switch off each and they go out individually.

I think they are circuit breakers, its a panel with switches. All the electric stuff was installed last year by an electric company with all the new regulations and fancy stuff.

The two circuits are not dedicated and there is more stuff on them, like the room lamps and the baseboard heating, which is off.

Also, we turned on every device in the house including all baseboard heaters to see if it would pop the fuse, but it would not, just as expected. The load shouldn't be the problem here on paper.

After thinking alot about the problem, I came to the same conclusion as rives and see it as very unlikely, that the problem actually happens the way I described it in my first post. I posted here to find an explanation like the one you gave (that the fuse might pop because of voltage fluctuations), as I do not have any electric background. But probably that is just coincidence and in reality the ballast or some other component is broken.

As a matter of fact, there is an UPS installed in the building which gives very detailed information about the energy in the house, there are no fluctuations in voltage registered in the last months. There is no other way to measure anything there atm.

 

[jimmyd42]

The second room is now turned off after the fuse popped 6 times in only 2 hours.

I replaced/removed all power strips, so that's not the problem. I looked for mechanical problems with the cables but couldn't see anything.

Im running out of ideas....

What could be the underlying problem? Why would attaching a ballast and a fan to a outlet pop the circuit of another one?

 

[rives]

Without some instrumentation and pulling things apart, you are pretty well just easter-egging (what's under here...?). There are innumerable ways to screw up an electrical installation that result in strange symptoms, or at least they seem strange until you find the cause and then it becomes very logical.

Without some more electrical knowledge, you are probably stuck with calling an electrician in. If this is a recent installation, then you probably have GFCI or Arc-Fault breakers, both of which are going to be extremely sensitive to poor wiring practices. If one of your circuits is a standard breaker and the other is a GFCI, then you could get the symptoms that you are seeing if the neutrals are mistakenly tied together in the walls.

 

[jimmyd42]

A very good point, rives!

Here is what is in the box:

600 watt light: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...terchangeable-Circuit-Breaker-Q120U/100044919

1000 watt light: http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

So the curcuit breaker is actually an Arc Fault one, and its resetting to middle position. I am just reading about what exactly that means ;-)

 

[jimmyd42]

I think the digital ballasts noise is triggering the AFCI.

Thanks rives for helping me out with this one!

 

[rives]

I would bet that they have the neutrals cross-connected in the walls, which used to be common practice for circuits supplied by conventional breakers. It is critical for GFCI's and arc-fault breakers to have the circuit neutral come back to the breaker, and be isolated from neutrals supplied by other breakers. The small coiled pigtail that you can see in the Lowes picture is then attached to the neutral bus in the panel, completing the circuit. This enables the breaker to monitor the current flow as it goes out to the device and returns to the breaker - if there is any discrepancy between them, the breaker trips. The anticipated cause for the discrepancy is that there is a ground fault somewhere and not all of the current is returning - this is usually from someone on the other end doing the 60-cycle shuffle. In your friend's case, if the conventional breaker neutral is tied into the wiring returning to the arc-fault breaker, then then it is adding to the current actually being sourced by the breaker and causing the discrepancy. I'm surprised that the breaker doesn't trip instantly as a result. The arc-fault circuit would work fine when the additional current wasn't being added, which could explain why the problem has just shown itself.

 

[jimmyd42]

Would you have any suggestions on how to solve this situation?

I guess it could be fixed by either buying quality digital ballasts or using an extension cable from another room.... any better ideas?

 

[rives]

If this is the problem, the quality of the ballast is irrelevant - the problem is in the wiring. The arc-fault breaker could be changed to a conventional one, and the problem will go away. However, arc-fault breakers are a damn good idea and required by code for bedrooms. If you want to keep the breaker in service, then another circuit will be needed for the 600 and the problem receptacle abandoned. The problem will reoccur anytime that the receptacle is used.

 

[marrdogg]

Respect your opinion rives, I am in no way more knowledgeable than you on this subject. But he stated that they are not dedicated circuits so maybe something else on that line is causing it. Maybe if he turns off and unplug every single item in the house aside from grow room equipment both lights running and see if problems still occurs if not whatever else you have on that line is causing it. Overloading circuit, just a guess..,

 

[smilley]

It could be a weak breaker. It's an easy job to swap it out and see, just make sure to shut off the main breaker before playing with it.

 

[rives]

Yep, it could possibly be from from a variety of things, but considering that the affected circuit is on an arc-fault breaker and the problem only occurs when a device is powered from a different, conventional circuit makes me bet that the problem is in miswired neutrals. These types of breakers are lifesavers, but there is simply no forgiveness in them for deviation from how they are designed to be wired. If the arc-fault breaker was installed after the initial construction in order to bring things up to current code, I can damn near guarantee that the problem resulted from tying into existing circuitry that doesn't work with the new technology but used to be common wiring practice.

As I said above, the only thing that surprises me is that the arc-fault circuit doesn't clear instantly when the other circuit is energized. It would certainly be a good idea to check everything else possible, though.

 

[rives]

I think the digital ballasts noise is triggering the AFCI.

This is a possibility. It would be very easy to check - remove the electronic ballast from the receptacle and try another device in the same receptacle. If the problem is from the neutrals, pretty much any load should cause it to reoccur. If the problem goes away, then the electronic ballast gets a lot more suspect.

 

[jimmyd42]

Thank you all for your replies! Finally I get a chance to learn something about electrics ;-)

And yes, indeed the AFCI never triggers when the lamp is turned off! A 400 Watt vent and a 18" fan keep running but never trigger the AFCI. Also the lights and baseboard heating work fine. As I said, this never happens even when all devices are turned on in the house, it doesnt seem to be a load problem in first place, but is something that specific happens when both ballasts get turned on at the same time.

We switched the receptacles for the lamp on the same AFCI circuit to no success.

Many reviewers state that the Apollo Digital Ballasts have RF Interference.

Also, with the new terms I learned in this thread I get alot of hits on google for this issue. People do in fact seem to have this problem with cheap ballasts.

Ill look into a cheap fix with an extension cord now.

 

[BredForMeds]

just so u know.. I was having the exact same problem.. but with 1000watters.. then I found that whoever did the electrical fucked me hard. he was running random plugs on random breakers.. making the lights trip the breaker wen they were on together.. I used extension cord.. and plugged into another spot in the house.. and not a problem..

if u use an extension cord on an hid ballast. will u not get the entire 1000w? or .. I heard extension cords can fuck up how bright ur bulb is .. and fucking up an entire harvest isn't an option

 

[rives]

An overly-long or too small extension cord shouldn't make your light dimmer, but they could easily make it more prone to dropping off-line and restarting.

 

[bigshrimp]

look for the "major appliance cords" they will be the ones you want.

Is this common for cheap digi ballasts to do rives?

 

[rives]

Is this common for cheap digi ballasts to do rives?

Not that I'm aware of, but I don't think that the number of arc-fault breakers being used for our purposes is that high yet. I've got one to install as a main in my sub-panel, but haven't gotten around to putting it in yet. I have heard of them being prone to tripping with HID lamps, but that was when they were actually powering the circuit that the lamp was on. It's a vastly-superior concept in protection, but if they are anything like GFCI's when they first came out, there is going to be a little pain involved in making them work. GFCI's had a terrible reputation for years for being too sensitive, and I don't know if it was actually because the first few generations of them were really too sensitive or if it was a result of no one really understanding how they had to be installed.

There are lots of good reasons not to buy cheap, poorly shielded electronic ballasts, and this may be another one. They can be pretty indiscreet - interfering with your neighbor's TV and radio reception isn't a good thing.