Chemical in Buds. If you're good in Math, please help

[greenops]

Here's a good article explaining LD-50 and LC-50. LD-50 measures acute toxicity only. Death from a single dose or exposure. It does not address carcinogenicity, damage that is non lethal [e.g. organ damage], etc. Does not address long term damage. Note also that "Half Life" means that after the interval [e.g. half life 60 days] half of it remains. In another 60 days, half of that [1/4] remains.
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/ld50.html

To control PM use Actinovate multiple apps. It is an antibiotic producing bacillis. I would also spray the room and all sides and bottoms of containers. Acceptible for organic production. Order from a source that does a volume business, and check the date on the pkg. when received. Good luck. -granger

Thanks for the tip!

Yeah i understand the definitions. That's why i was attempting to calculate the concentration that i used to spray the plants with.

From my research, it's not carcinogenic.

But I assume that DC 50 and LD 50 is difficult to compare to our consumption, because the concentration used to test on animals are ridiculously high, that we normally wouldn't be exposed to such concentration. At least that's what I hope! OO, can u verify this?

 

[Only Ornamental]

But I assume that DC 50 and LD 50 is difficult to compare to our consumption, because the concentration used to test on animals are ridiculously high, that we normally wouldn't be exposed to such concentration. At least that's what I hope! OO, can u verify this?

You're right, they are difficult to compare with this particular case but not because of the tested concentrations. These values indicate which precise amount/concentration kills 50% of the test subjects. That may be for example in the nanomolar or the kilogram range.

Almost forgot (important consideration):
Difenoconazole contains two halogenated benzene rings; decomposition by inappropriate combustion (e.g. ) generates likely toxic, mutangenic and/or cancerinogenic chlorinated aromatic compounds... also the triazole ring should burn up to dangerous nitrous oxydes and alike! Judging on a gut level, smoking difenoconazole will likely harm your health dozen times more than using it spoon-wise as sugar substitute in your morning coffee...
It might be preferable to use sieve or bubble hash (but not extracts!) and/or a vaporizer to limit carry over from treated leaves and reduce thermal degradation of residues, respectively .

 

[greenops]

Now that's what I was afraid of. In my research i found out that it was low in toxicity and non carcinogenic, but that must have been related to eating fruits with residues, exactly what this fungicide was intended for. I don't like making bubble hash out of my entire harvest. So if the buds are too risky to spark up I might as well quit this grow right now.

The highest health risk I've read so far is OO's post above, but OO... I tried to google Difenoconazole + benzene rings and came up with nothing much. Is that something you just know from your background or where did u read this?

Also it has been mentioned that Difenoconazole doesn't move as effectively to the untreated parts of the plant. If this theory is correct, all the buds should be free of this toxin... and that's basically what the guy at the grow shop meant with "just dont spray the buds", although that guy lost all credibility in my eyes by even recommending this stuff. However, when I google Difenoconazole and translocation I find the following statement:

Difenoconazole (CAS No.119446-68-3) is a systemic fungicide with preventive and curative action. Absorbed by the leaves, with acropetal and strong translaminar translocation.

I don't know if that's just exaggerated advertisement for their fungicide product or a fact.

How would u assess the risk of smoking the buds, 10 weeks of application, being sprayed on twice before buds production? As risky as the toxic ingredients in our deodorants, riskier than smoking cigarettes?

 

[Pinnate]

The climate in my cab is pretty stable, 30-45% rH, 25-26 C. I never had PM in the same environment before, just last time it surprised me out of nowhere.

All I can suggest is more forced air circulation ─ I've not even seen PM indoors in ~40 yrs growin'.

 

[Only Ornamental]

...I tried to google Difenoconazole + benzene rings and came up with nothing much. Is that something you just know from your background or where did u read this?

Also it has been mentioned that Difenoconazole doesn't move as effectively to the untreated parts of the plant. If this theory is correct, all the buds should be free of this toxin... and that's basically what the guy at the grow shop meant with "just dont spray the buds", although that guy lost all credibility in my eyes by even recommending this stuff. However, when I google Difenoconazole and translocation I find the following statement:

Difenoconazole (CAS No.119446-68-3) is a systemic fungicide with preventive and curative action. Absorbed by the leaves, with acropetal and strong translaminar translocation.
...
How would u assess the risk of smoking the buds, 10 weeks of application, being sprayed on twice before buds production? As risky as the toxic ingredients in our deodorants, riskier than smoking cigarettes?

Try to search for the chemical structure alone and you'll see (if you have the x-ray eyes of a chemist LoL) the structural elements. You guessed right, it's 'standard knowledge' for me; though which decomposition product exactly emerges depends strongly on the complete structure and requires actual testing (which hasn't been done in detail). But check out the MSDS (for example of a Syngenta product containing difenoconazole) HERE. BTW, it's section 10 you should look at...

Concerning the advertisement, I don't know Might be that 10% for a scientist is not much whereas for the marketing department it's a lot (if the attained concentration suffices to kill fungi, then it's a true claim in its own sense).

Risk assessment without proper knowledge... I think I quickly get my crystal ball out from under the ouija board, dust my tarot cards off and make my pendulum spin. Seriously dude, is my nickname Aleister Crowley or Stella Matutina?
You have two factors playing against each other, alleged safety v.s. very bad mojo. Which one comes into play (and after how many years after exposure if it's the second one)...
I have the feeling that, after this, you get the hippie paranoia and throw your grow out of the window.

Cause of that, I prefer, when unavoidable, products with a short half-life (no depot effect) and no halogens or aromatic nitrates. I know, I'm kind of privileged and have a little errrr... healthy paranoia too.

 

[greenops]

I know it's silly to base my decision on your risk assessment... it's just how desperate I feel at the moment.

But don't u think that section 10 in your link relates to combustion of a high concentration of Difenconazole? That perhaps whatever residue is left in the buds won't be nearly as enough to produce those kinds of toxins? (wishful thinking)

Yup hippie paranoia is getting to me. I'm realizing that ifs and maybes of a best case scenario don't cut it... I am moving towards accepting the fact that i have to take everything down and start another grow after summer. ... though i'm still looking out for proof or solid arguments that it will be safe after all. If ever, I'll just be careful not to smoke too much of this crop in a short period of time, for what it's worth.


Just maybe one more thing.

I just googled "cannabis, difenconazole" and found this list of different pesticides used on cannabis. But as a uneducated chemist the site doesn't make much sense to me. Difenconazole is listed at the bottom.

if you can take a loot at the following link, is it something relevant?:

http://www.restek.com/chromatogram/view/GC_FF1205/50-29-3

 

[Only Ornamental]

Well, the formation of toxic degradation products is independent of the amount or concentration and smoked as a joint will surely form; If you use a vaporiser below 200°C, you have surely less problems.
I think, that even in the worst case, you wouldn't smell or feel the stuff in you lungs or elsewhere.

If you'd knew what you consume all day long, you'd voluntarily stop breathing .

Our bodies tolerate a lot of toxic stuff but at one point, all the little exposures get too many. For some, it's at 40, for others at 120...

BTW, your link only means that it is tested as a potential residue (because it's possibly harmful). It doesn't mean anything else.

 

[greenops]

Alright, so I won't have people passing out after smoking a J of my buds. And if they expire a certain amount of years later it will most likely be the accumulation of all the BS that they took in their life. I'll prolly go on some juicing diet to improve my immune system lol.

It also makes me wonder how many other, even commercial growers, maybe using this. It's so easily available and on top of that u got salesmen that don't really know what it is so they just tell em there's nothing really to worry about cuz u can use it on fruits. I read an article stating that 50% of the Coffeeshops weed in Amsterdam tested positive for residue. I could have smoked some already without even knowing it.

 

[Only Ornamental]

And if they expire a certain amount of years later it will most likely be the accumulation of all the BS that they took in their life.

Nicely formulated . A good part of the toxic degradation products is common for every smoker anyway.

I could have smoked some already without even knowing it.

I bet you did .

Last night I roughly re-calculated your case: Worst scenario would add up to 1 mg toxic stuff (per day?). If you go for a BBQ with organic everything on a woodfire, you surely get more toxic stuff that evening and you will feel great .

 

[greenops]

Thanks a lot OO. This makes me feel like finishing this grow now. Nevertheless, I'll never want to spray anything like this again in future.

Just to make sure nothing has been left out... As I mentioned in my first post, Rondo Combi actually comes with Difenconazole and Dithianon. Based on the LD50 levels I'm guessing that Dithianon is significantly more toxic than Difenconazole.
However, am I correct in assuming that Dithianon is non systemic and therefore no reason to be worried about 10 weeks after application?

 

[Only Ornamental]

Dithianon

Arrrrggghhhhh!!!! And you sprayed that stuff prolly without protection indoors, right ? Now you can smoke all the difenoconazole you want LoL. Why didn't you say that earlier (or why did I miss it)?

Seriously, that stuff is really not top for closed rooms. Hope, that you have a carbon filter for your grow cabinet.
I couldn't find real intel yet, but I suppose that this compound should degrade rather fast, gets into the plants, but is metabolised rapidly to non-toxic stuff. You shouldn't smoke it pure though (it'll liberate prussic acid ). It's also suspected to be carcinogenic (it's an organocyanide and many of these are dangerous) and the legal amount of residues in food is at 5 ppm (thats pretty low).

I thing that 10 weeks will be enough for nearly complete degradation (you get cyanide with every cigarette anyway and metabolise it quite effectively)...
Do you have something on its time of activity (how long it protects the crop) or its environmental half-life (only found, that it's not accumulated)?

Dude, next time you use chemicals on (especially smokable) consumables, THINK and/or ASK fist! (OK, we all did stupid stuff and it didn't do noting bad-a ba bä bähhh bähhh ROFL )

 

[greenops]

Arrrrggghhhhh!!!! And you sprayed that stuff prolly without protection indoors, right ? Now you can smoke all the difenoconazole you want LoL. Why didn't you say that earlier (or why did I miss it)?

Seriously, that stuff is really not top for closed rooms. Hope, that you have a carbon filter for your grow cabinet.
I couldn't find real intel yet, but I suppose that this compound should degrade rather fast, gets into the plants, but is metabolised rapidly to non-toxic stuff. You shouldn't smoke it pure though (it'll liberate prussic acid ). It's also suspected to be carcinogenic (it's an organocyanide and many of these are dangerous) and the legal amount of residues in food is at 5 ppm (thats pretty low).

I thing that 10 weeks will be enough for nearly complete degradation (you get cyanide with every cigarette anyway and metabolise it quite effectively)...
Do you have something on its time of activity (how long it protects the crop) or its environmental half-life (only found, that it's not accumulated)?

Dude, next time you use chemicals on (especially smokable) consumables, THINK and/or ASK fist! (OK, we all did stupid stuff and it didn't do noting bad-a ba bä bähhh bähhh ROFL )

Crap! Well yes, I mentioned it in my first post. The label of the fungicide describes Diathanon as a contact fungicide that prevents spores from germinating. I googled a little bit about it, but when I found out its non systemic, I assumed it won't be that big of an issue.

Actually I even made a thread in here if chemical fungicides are safe. I didn't get a clear answer on there, someone even suggested Eagle 20. So after I called up the grow shop guy again, to specifically ask him if I can spray the plants twice in veg i believed him and proceeded with "my battle against PM".

I do have a carbon filter in my cab. The first time I sprayed my plants (day 30 in veg) I placed them in the hallway. 11 days later, and 9 days after the 12/12 switch, I sprayed them again inside the tent. At that stage, the plants just started to show their pre flowers, that were about 2 mm long at the most. That stuff stinks like gasoline so I breathed as little as possible.

I can't find much regarding it's activity. The half life seems a bit long in soil, up to 68 days, but i don't know how that is relevant as I sprayed the leaves and stems.

In this link however, it says:
The terminalhalf-lives were similar for both dose levels, 55.8 and 46.4 h for males and 56.8 and 56.7 h for females, at 10 and 50 mg/kg bw,The only thing I hope I can rely on, is the statement made by the company that makes Rondo Combi, when I asked them if the 3 weeks withholding period means half life, or if its completely out of the system:

"Die Wartefrist bedeutet bei Anwendung nach Packungsaufschrift, dass die Rückstände auch unter ungünstigen Bedingungen (z.B. Salat im Winter im Treibhaus) unter der vorgeschriebenen Höchstmenge und damit nach heutigem Wissensstand ungefährlich sind."

Meaning, the withholding period, if used as instructed, will be under the maximum residue level, therefore should present no health risk. That also applies to non ideal growing circumstances like growing salad in a greenhouse in winter.

I uploaded the safety sheet in the attachment. It's in german, but I guess someone with your backround will make sense of the data.

Let me highlight that might be something of interest, on page 16:

Persistenz und Abbaubarkeit (persistence and degradability)
Angaben zu: Dithianon
Angaben zur Elimination:
23,9 % (14 d) (OECD 301C; ISO 9408; 92/69/EWG, C.4-F) Nicht leicht biologisch abbaubar (nach
OECD-Kriterien).
-------------------------

It means, not easy bio degradable... hmmm?

What do u mean by "You shouldn't smoke it pure though" - as in concentrates? Or pure joints? I don't like tobacco in my Js

So I hope u can dumb it down for me and let me know the deal. If Diathanon isn't translocating, non-sytemmic and leaves no residue... then all the untreated buds that have yet to be produced should be free of that stuff, right?

Again, I'm very thankful u found this thread and appreciate u guiding me through this.
If ever u need someone to water your garden while you're away, let me know. lol

 

[Only Ornamental]

Na, German is no problem...

Biodegradability may be just disappearance of the original compound or more often further degradation (to a certain content into non-toxic metabolites). With dithianone you only need the two cyanide groups to 'disappear' (react with something).

BTW "You shouldn't smoke it pure though" means don't smoke the pure substance; it was a joke .