Super Soil, Tea, Sythentic Nutes

[Chunky Dixel]

I've been perfecting growing indoors starting with a super soil, brewing compost tea, and watering in sythetic nutes.

Does anyone else have experience doing this. I've found that you do not want to ph down your sythentic nutres because it will throw off your ph balance in your soil.

My soil consists mostly of promix and earth worm castings.

I'm currently running Dyna Bloom as my salt based nute.

 

[dank.frank]

Question is why do you need synthetic nutrients in soil, to begin with?

If your going to use synthetic - why not just use coco and get higher yields?

The biggest benefit to be achieved while growing in soil is fostering the life cycle of the microorganisms...

Synthetics damage the health / population of the micro herd - so this combo type of program seems very counter-intuitive and counter-productive.

I don't understand why people try and mix the two methodologies...



dank.Frank

 

[Avinash.miles]

 

[supermanlives]

don't sound like perfection to me. mixing organics and synthetics is a waste of organics .lol but hey if it works for you

 

[yujin]

Yeah you're probably destroying any good living stuff with the synthetics. I'm not saying synthetics are bad. They just don't play well with organics. You really need to choose one way or the other. They do not mix at all.

 

[Chunky Dixel]

because if you compare nutrient feeding schedules from a handful of the most popular companies they blend, many of them use both organics and synthetic nutrients together?

 

[dank.frank]

The goal of nutrient companies is to ultimately sell you their product - nothing wrong with a bit of capitalism...but that line of thinking is not going to get you the best end result.

When you say you are using super soil - I'm not sure how super it is if you still have to feed your plants anything in addition to what is already in the soil.

When I mix my soils, unless a plant is just a super heavy feeder, any additional nutrition just burns them - so I know my soil in and of itself is pushing the ladies as hard as they need to be pushed. I literally only give my plants water their entire life cycle - and I use the exact same soil mix for both veg and flower...

If you find your plants are requiring more than what the soil is providing - that is a sign you need to work on your soil mix a bit more to get it truly "perfect". The usage of other inputs, is really at this point just acting as a band-aid to cover the inadequacies of your base soil mix.

The reason nutrient companies have begun taking this approach is they fear the rise of the true organic grower - the grower that has no need for them. So they've begun campaigning for these hybrid growing options; sure, grow organics, but try this to boost "insert marketing here"...

The longer you put synthetics into your organic soil, the less healthy your soil will become, and the greater the need for synthetic substitution will become...eventually convincing you that organic soil is crap and what is really working is their products.

It's a really smart attempt on their part to invalidate the truth; A true organic soil will self regulate and provide everything the plant needs to perform at it's genetic optimum. The last thing they want you to understand = you don't need them... AT ALL.

Aside from what you see the nutrient companies doing - what else is motivating you to utilize this approach?



dank.Frank

 

[GreenDream]

We have done exactly what you are doing with excellent results. There's just a few things to keep in mind. The Mineral and biological waterings should be done separately, and the mineral watering should not go over about 1.2 EC. Most biologics are damaged by Phosphate levels over 50ppm and IME as long as we followed those 2 rules, our micro herd would remain intact.

The reason I have tried this is because I am the guinea pig for the hydro store that my friend owns. He doesn't grow now that he's gone legit and owns the business, so when new nutrient lines come out, he kicks me down 2.5gal jugs and asks for a full report. Most recently I have been testing the Kind series from Botanicare. (Which ROCKS btw.) This is why I need to be able to mix synthetics with biologics.... I will NEVER give up my compost tea!! JOOC, what's your reasoning?

edit: When we are combining mineral and bio feedings, we are using a soiless blend of 4 parts Pro Mix, 3 parts coco, and 1 part worm castings. Supersoil might get a little too hot with the addition of mineral nutes, so keep that in mind

 

[dank.frank]

A mineral nute = synthetic? Chemical? Salts?

When I think of mineral nutrition - I'm thinking gypsum, dolomite, oyster shell flower, rock dusts, azomite, diatomaceous earth, sul-po-mag, greensand, leonardite, clinoptilolite....etc.

Not their chemically extracted derivatives - to call them "mineral feedings" seems a bit misleading to me...but maybe not.



dank.Frank

 

[GreenDream]

A mineral nute = synthetic? Chemical? Salts?

When I think of mineral nutrition - I'm thinking gypsum, dolomite, oyster shell flower, rock dusts, azomite, diatomaceous earth, sul-po-mag, greensand, leonardite, clinoptilolite....etc.

Not their chemically extracted derivatives - to call them "mineral feedings" seems a bit misleading to me...but maybe not.



dank.Frank

It really depends what type of nute it is. I just got used to calling them all mineral nutes cause when we're talking in the store, customers don't want to hear the word "chemical" when they're buying their favorite kool-aid. But yes there is a distinction between mined minerals and chemically synthesized nutrients. Just to confuse things more, K-mag (sul-po-mag) is a mined mineral salt yet is actually considered organic under most organic review institutes, as are most of the other bulk nutes you listed. It really depends which organic certifiers you go by; OMRI or USDA or other.

 

[dank.frank]

The others are just licensing bodies for advertising purposes - it's like paying to be in the cool kids club....but they all follow NOP standards.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

So because people at the store don't like to call it what it is - you have decided to create a terminology to soften the blow...such is the nature of marketing.

Kind of amusing.

Rather than call it sul po mag - I should have just stated Langbeinite - as that is what it really is. A mined mineral - the fact it is a "salt" does not make it essentially bad - what makes salts bad, is when they are in an ionic form in which the plant is force fed. Langbeinite still has to be broken down by soil microbes to be utilized by the plant - which is what makes it different...


dank.Frank

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

This thread is confusing at best.

 

[dank.frank]

Then do something to help add clarity.



dank.Frank

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

I don't know how to convince someone not to grow with chemicals. They have to decide that for themselves.

Maybe we could come up with a show called "Chemical Cannabis Growing Intervention."

We could have a licensed "interventionist" there with us as we talk about the dangerous road they are going down. Then we offer them help in the form of organic soil, and nutrients. Along with help from a "growing therapist."

Anytime they are having a problem they could call their "growing therapist" to help talk them down off of the ledge.

"Put the chemicals down Chunky Dixel!"

 

[dank.frank]

I think the idea you have exists right here on these forums:

Chunky Dixel makes a post about how he is trying to dial in his grow to produce better flowers - and like 95% of people out there - is getting his information from a hydro store...

I feel it is now our responsibility to dissect his post and provide him with the correct information...to help him along his journey to producing better medicine.

This site - can save people literally YEARS of trial and error - and take someone from newbie to pro in a matter of a couple grows, if people are sincere about learning and improving their garden...

I'm hoping OP comes back to the thread and continues to ask questions and share the ideas he's been infected with, so we have a chance to improve upon his base knowledge and provide him with the facts...

But like you said ESO - it's up to him to digest the information and put it to practical application.

The biggest point to make so far:

Super soil (organics) and synthetics DO NOT jive. It's just not the way to go about doing things. Either grow organic and learn to understand soil - or grow with synthetics and learn as much as humanly possible about various concoctions that are in the bottles and a lot about pH ranges. There is no combination or mix of the two that will optimize a plant...



dank.Frank

 

[paint4420]

I was confused as soon as I read the thread title...

Im sure mixing organics and ionic salts can grow a plant if things are in the right ratios... but.. why!? Your loosing the "simplicity" of bottle fed plants gaining the complexity of act and ewc. plus gaining the complexity of a system not many people want to fux with. All while loosing the subtle flavor and complexity in your buds along with the beneficial biomass that helps plant health and nutrient deliver that is acheived in true organics.

My freind does this as well... mixing oranic ideas with a hydro background and getting decent results... just nothing I would call superior

 

[GreenDream]

The others are just licensing bodies for advertising purposes - it's like paying to be in the cool kids club....but they all follow NOP standards.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

So because people at the store don't like to call it what it is - you have decided to create a terminology to soften the blow...such is the nature of marketing.

Kind of amusing.

Rather than call it sul po mag - I should have just stated Langbeinite - as that is what it really is. A mined mineral - the fact it is a "salt" does not make it essentially bad - what makes salts bad, is when they are in an ionic form in which the plant is force fed. Langbeinite still has to be broken down by soil microbes to be utilized by the plant - which is what makes it different...


dank.Frank

True, but on the other hand, plants don't take up organic molecules. They take up ions (just like the "salt" minerals) that have been broken down by microbes in the soil. Therefore there is little difference between high quality chemicals and organic nutes to the plant, as long as the chemicals/minerals are being used properly.

Where people screw up is by either using too much or using low quality nutrients with bad chelates or heavy metals.

I am going to play the devil's advocate here, so please don't chastise me. I am a die hard organic farmer to the core when it comes to my property and outdoor gardens. However, indoors the cycle is so fast that doing a proper organic (soil building by my personal definition) run is not necessary. Consider this... the plant does not actually take up organic nutrients. So, as long as one uses top quality chemicals only chelated with L-amino acids, that have lower levels of heavy metals than organic ferts, and are used in doses lower than the threshold that kills microbes... it might actually be better than feeding organic ferts! (As long as the soil is alive to begin with.)

Just food for thought.

 

[Chunky Dixel]

I've been basing my knowledge on comparing companies feeding charts.

The master grower I learned from said to make super soil then week 4 introduce a organic base. (He uses humbolt nutrients organic line.) He introduces this base in week 4 because he notices that growing in a 3 gallon container that plant has used all the nutrients in that the soil at that point.

I've been growing for 3 years. The first two years I've used promix with ocean forest, and then maxi crop seaweed, epsom salt, molases, big boom, pro blend and tiger bloom and had great results.

Due to the fact I get so many freebies I've started playing with added in synthetic nutres and I honestly believe I have been hurting my plants with them. I do think they work fine in veg tho. But maybe it's not as easy to notice the difference.

From a year of playing with chem nutes I see that they are not needed if you really make a heady super soil.

I'm going to try my master growers advice which i've never stayed true to and really do an organic grow. based on a heady super soil.

I currently have 4 rooms going
room 1 promix, compost tea, dyna bloom (week 7)
room 2 half promix half super soil, compost tea, dyna bloom (week 7)
room 3 promix with a little amendments (week 2 veg)
room 4 half promix half a heavy amendment soil (week 4 veg)

 

[Chunky Dixel]

Green Dream!!! Yes you are touching on the reason I've been experimenting with both organic and synthetic.

Thank you i was starting to feel really like a newbie. hahaha
yes many interviews I've watched from growers on you tube have said there isn't enough time in the life of an indoor plant to use the nutrition in the soil.

I feel that adding in a little high quality nutrient like dyna bloom will complete the nutrition of the plant.

I do see that it's definitely like a 3rd of the recommended dosage. When adding in a chem.

 

[Chunky Dixel]

Eureka I've been hearing good things from Miles about your organics. I'm looking forward to buying your products. - Chunky