Is it possible that reality is not what you think?...yes?/no?...lol

[southflorida]

Though the philosophy and science of consciousness or true self-knowledge - that we're discussing in this thread - may seem to refute or deny the truth of all normal forms of human knowledge, but it does not in fact deny the relative truth of any other philosophy, science or religion.

It merely places them in a correct perspective.

In the grand scheme of things, everything has its relative place, and this philosophy of self-knowledge simply enables us to understand the relative place of everything in a correct perspective.

The truth is that the "grand scheme of things" - and everything that has a place in it - are all known only by our mind, and thus are ultimately only our thoughts.

Since we cannot know anything except in our own mind, we have no adequate reason to suppose that anything exists outside of our mind.

Even the idea that things exist independent of our mind, and are therefore more than just our thoughts, is itself merely a thought or imagination.

This is probably the most important insight: In our direct experience EVERYTHING that we seem to perceive and know is occuring ONLY inside our mind, inside our thinking, inside our imagination.

It is all simply a secondary process, where incoming DATA is created and interpreted by our mind, so fundamentally all we ever have is mind interpreting what the mind is creating through its imagination.

The false belief and assumption that our body/mind is the subject perceiving objects directly as they are is what keeps us confused in a major way.

In our direct experience this is NOT what actually happens.

There is nothing happening outside a human being or for that matter inside a human being.

There is no human beings in absolute reality.

All we ever have is mind, which is a function of Consciousness/Being...dreaming/imagining that it is a body/mind combo, and that it is physically real and that it perceives stuff that is separate from it, and that it perceives stuff inside itself in the form of thoughts and emotions.

But, fundamentally, all of this is a type of a dream occuring inside the mind, meaning that it does not really exist, meaning it is not real, in and of itself.

...similar to the dreams we have when we sleep.

The mind is simply a phenomenon occuring inside the Absolute-Non-Dual-Consciousness-Being, and is only relatively true, in relation to the mind that is having this dream of being a mind/body combo.

What the philosophy and science of consciousness refutes or calls into question, therefore, is not merely any particular thought, idea or belief that our mind may have about anything, but ultimately the reality of our mind itself.

All dualistic systems of philosophy, science and religious belief are dealing with the truth – but not with the absolute truth.

The truth or truths with which they are dealing are only some relative forms of truth, and because they are relative, the truths of one such system may appear to clash with those of another.

However, the conflict between all the countless forms of relative truth can be reconciled when each is seen in its correct perspective, which is possible only from the standpoint of the absolute truth of non-dual self-knowledge – the fundamental consciousness "I am", which is the impartial substratum and reality on which or in which all things appear and disappear.

Though the objective knowledge that we acquire by means of philosophy and science may appear to be true and valid knowledge from the relative standpoint of our mind, from the absolute standpoint of our real consciousness "I am" it is not true knowledge.

Whatever knowledge the human mind may acquire through philosophy, science, religion or any other means can only be relative knowledge, and not absolute or true knowledge.

Our mind is an instrument that can know only duality, relativity or limitations, and not that which is beyond all duality, relativity and limitations.

However, the limit of our knowledge does not stop with our mind. Beyond our mind, or rather behind, beneath and underlying our mind, there is a deeper consciousness – our fundamental and essential self-consciousness, "I am".

This essential self-consciousness or non-dual knowledge of our own mere being is itself the absolute knowledge – knowledge which is absolutely, unconditionally, independently and infinitely true, pure, clear and certain.

 

[supermanlives]

reality changes

 

[southflorida]

Yes all this is true and out of context I agree with all this. The problem I have is when you start trying to be specific about what are absolute truths and what are relative truths. That's what I was trying to point out and you just danced around. You assume that individuals will come to the same conclusions as you and you've convinced yourself that if they don't they're too influenced by the forces controlling society to see what you're saying.

Absolute truth is absolute and is true always and under all circumstances.

Relative truth is true only in relation to something else, meaning that it is NOT absolutely true.

Confusing absolute truth with relative truth...is called confusion.

And, as I already said many times, and probably will say many more, that is what we have in relation to the human condition - folks that are confused about who/what they really and absolutely "are."

What two different people see as relative truth and absolute truth is still relative to their unique perspective.

This is my primary point.

Absolute truth is NOT relative to any unique perspective.

Any truth that is relative to a unique perspective of a mind is relative truth, even if the truth that this unique mind is contemplating is absolute.

Why?

Because in this case the mind with a unique perspective is the subject and the truth it is contemplating is the object.

Plus, in addition to these two things, we have the process of contemplating or interpreting. So there is nothing absolute about a unique mind's perspective, it is always dualistic and never can be inherently absolute.

Now granted the vast majority of the public is caught up in trying to live up to a false image and then attempting to cope with the misery they feel when they can't find satisfaction that way. I don't know if I would agree with the 99.9% you throw out based on your relative view but I would agree it's a majority. These are the people most easily led and most easily influenced, that's why they'll hop on every new diet, exercise routine, exercise equipment, age reversing cosmetic, penis enhancing product, etc. that comes along. Ironically they are also the ones most likely to agree completely with you. Because you offer an argument that suggests they can with not much effort other then thinking about things differently they can magically turn their lives around and find enlightenment.

As you can see yourself, what I'm pointing at is not very popular, and the majority of folks are denying it.

In my personal and direct experience in the off-line world, not one person that I know personally is willing to let go off their current assumptions (that they are a body/mind combo) and seriously consider this information.

The reality is all you are doing is telling people not to just routinely accept what they're told but rather pay more attention and think more on their own which while not bad advice is not the earth shaking, reality transforming, panacea, you make it out to be.

This is only the first step, but fundamentally, I'm saying there is no primary reality such as a body/mind, that it is all mind imagining itself to be a body/mind combo, and that what most people consider to be a real physical and objective experience is no more real than a dream that evaporates once we wake up.

And, plus, this state of waking itself, is simply another dream, that is not that different from the dreams that we experience when dreaming.

In deep sleep, we have no awareness of the mind or body and there are no dreams and no perception, we simply "are."

In other words, all we experience during deep sleep is "I am."

So, if we use our direct experience as a test of reality, we can see who and what we are.

And, during the states of being awake and dreaming, this "I am" does not disappear, but simply stays in the background, while the mind goes crazy imagining all kinds of "stuff."

Absolute Consciousness of Being is like a movie screen, if we use an analogy.

When there is no movie, it is there.

When the movie appears, it is also there.

What appears on the screen is temporary, similar to the waking and dreaming states, and when the projector (mind) is turned off, the screen remains.

So, the screen (consciousness) is always there, under all circumstances, while the movie (mind's imagination) is temporary and not real, in and of itself.

Without the screen (absolute reality) there would be no movie (relative reality).

When the movie is playing the screen is exactly as IT-IS, it just seems to change because the movie is projected on it.

This is the same with our mind.

It projects images/thoughts on the screen of Consciousness, and temporarily believes that these images/thoughts are absolutely true.

But, they are only relatively true, and relate only to the mind that is projecting them and perceiving/interpreting them.

The fact is reality is exactly what each of us thinks it is. If I look up in the sky and truly believe that I see the sky as red in color then no amount of people saying "no the sky is actually blue" will make me suddenly see the sky as blue.

Yes, your individual movie on the screen will be like you project it.

But, the screen will remain as it is.

This is my point.

The screen is absolutely real, your projection is relatively real.

Just like no amount of me telling you there are flaws in your argument is going to make you see those flaws.

In absolute reality, there are no you/me, etc...it is non-dual and absolute. It is one, whole, undivided thing.

The mind boggling part of reality isn't that what we see isn't reality it is that for each of us that reality is as unique and different yet similar as each of us are.

This is truly mind boggling, and is the reason why I have been so interested in getting to the truth of what the mind is for so many years.

I just have always wanted to know the truth of who I really am.

And this truth has always been with me, I didn't have to search for it.

In fact, my search is what kept me from being aware of who I am.

When I finally turned around and faced my real self, and stopped searching, I realized that simply and authentically...

...I am that I am.

 

[southflorida]

reality changes

I see, you like to keep it short and simple

...yes, it's true relative reality always changes.

...but, absolute reality doesn't.

relative reality is what isn't...but only "appears" to be.

absolute reality is what "is."

 

[HempKat]

It is all simply a secondary process, where incoming DATA is created and interpreted by our mind, so fundamentally all we ever have is mind interpreting what the mind is creating through its imagination

No the mind is not creating the external stimuli, it is only interpreting it. If you are sitting somewhere and your eyes are closed and I sneak up on you and smack you in the back of the head you'll feel pain, perhaps even the movement of air from my arm swinging towards your head just before I smack you. That doesn't mean you imagined me.

What the mind does is it interprets the input it receives from the external world, this is the process by which you've formulated the argument that everything from the mind is secondary. Now though you are trying to say that since the mind has labeled the stimuli it to is imagined and yet it isn't. If it were everyone would be living the perfect life, imagining and making real everything their little hearts desired but that isn't happening because we don't just imagine and thereby create everything we experience. We can only control how we interpret what we experience things that are already there before we came along and will still still be there when we are gone unless it's something we can destroy. Even then that thing is still there just so altered by destruction as to no longer be recognizable as the same thing from before the destruction.

Reality is real, not imagined but everyone's reality is only real to them even though it would seem that everyone's individual reality all exists in the same time and space as everyone else's individual realities. What makes that happen is the secondary process of the mind giving it a slightly different interpretation then the next person. Like in my example of the sky, one person looks up and sees red, another looks up and sees blue. Maybe the one seeing red does so because he was taught that what everyone else calls blue, is red? OR maybe he has some flaw in his optic nerves that sends an incorrect signal to his brain? Whatever the case, to him that's real, just as real as what anyone else sees.

You keep talking about facts and truths but they are only, your facts, your truths based on your opinions which are a product of your secondary process of mind interpreting the world around you based on your previous experiences and the programing of your environment. Like for example you seem to think a big part of what motivates people is a need to fit in and be accepted so the logical conclusion is that's what motivates you or else you wouldn't think that. You look at others and project your own feelings on them and you do so because that allows you to maintain this invented interpretation of reality not being real. Which fits really well with your opinion that people do what they do to protect the mind image. The problem is, not everyone is that way. Unfortunately you in further trying to protect your interpretation have manufactured an answer for that by just telling yourself they are too caught up in the programming to see things your way.

 

[HempKat]

This is my primary point.

Absolute truth is NOT relative to any unique perspective.

Any truth that is relative to a unique perspective of a mind is relative truth, even if the truth that this unique mind is contemplating is absolute.

Sure it is, if you say X is absolute truth and I say no Y is absolute truth. Then we can't both be right. Either one of us is right and one wrong or both are wrong. There are in fact absolute truths but what they are is for each of us to decide. Your test for what is an absolute truth is something that remains true under all conditions. For the sake of argument let's run with that. All though that's really just your test. What someone else uses to measure absolute truth is up to them. Anyway just because you look at or experience something and decide it would remain the same under all conditions you can imagine doesn't mean someone else will agree. Maybe they can imagine a condition under which it isn't true because their experiences have given them more knowledge with which to imagine scenarios then you can imagine. This then would create the situation of two people disagreeing on what is and isn't an absolute truth.

Then again based on your theory of reality there are no absolute truths because everything that can be experienced is secondary and therefore imaginary. In order for you to declare a thing to be an absolute truth you would have to run it thru the secondary process of mind in order to experience it and run your test on it to conclude it to be an absolute truth.

 

[southflorida]

No the mind is not creating the external stimuli, it is only interpreting it. If you are sitting somewhere and your eyes are closed and I sneak up on you and smack you in the back of the head you'll feel pain, perhaps even the movement of air from my arm swinging towards your head just before I smack you. That doesn't mean you imagined me.

I am going to try to explain what I mean by mind interpreting what the mind is creating itself, but this can't be proven by me since it is only something that I experience directly in my own consciousness. But, maybe others experience this also.

The best example I can use is to compare this waking experience we are having to the dreaming experiences we have.

When we are dreaming our mind is imagining and creating whatever is occuring in the dream. Simultaneously, the body/mind combo that is being dreamed by the mind interprets this dream and the body/mind combo responds accordingly.

If we are honest and actually pay attention, we will notice the only difference between the waking state and the dreaming state is that in the waking state we are much more attached to our body, and in the dream state we are not. In the dream, as a rule, if something happens that is quite uncomfortable, we simply wake up or have another dream where we experience another scenario.

This is what I mean when I say that mind is creating and interpreting experience in our waking state. Obviously this is not something everyone pays attention to, but this is mostly because of cultural programming that makes one assume that they are primarily a body/mind.

But, if one actually pays attention to what actually occurs in our direct experience, they will notice that our body/mind is not primary, and not even secondary, but a tertiary event.

Consciousness/Being >>> Mind >>> Body/Mind combo >>> Perception/Interpretation

This is my current perspective to the hierarchy of our experience.

What the mind does is it interprets the input it receives from the external world, this is the process by which you've formulated the argument that everything from the mind is secondary. Now though you are trying to say that since the mind has labeled the stimuli it to is imagined and yet it isn't. If it were everyone would be living the perfect life, imagining and making real everything their little hearts desired but that isn't happening because we don't just imagine and thereby create everything we experience. We can only control how we interpret what we experience things that are already there before we came along and will still still be there when we are gone unless it's something we can destroy. Even then that thing is still there just so altered by destruction as to no longer be recognizable as the same thing from before the destruction.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that there is a distinction between the "mind" and the "body/mind" combo, that the mind is imagining the body/mind combo and the "body/mind combo" is interpreting the data provided by the "mind."

I realize this might seem stupid, but I am trying to describe the actual nature of our experience, which is different from the way we "seem" to experience what we perceive on a moment to moment basis.

This does take a little contemplation to notice, but without a doubt, almost anyone can see what is occuring, if they let go of their assumptions during the contemplation and pay attention only to their direct experience.

Reality is real, not imagined but everyone's reality is only real to them even though it would seem that everyone's individual reality all exists in the same time and space as everyone else's individual realities. What makes that happen is the secondary process of the mind giving it a slightly different interpretation then the next person. Like in my example of the sky, one person looks up and sees red, another looks up and sees blue. Maybe the one seeing red does so because he was taught that what everyone else calls blue, is red? OR maybe he has some flaw in his optic nerves that sends an incorrect signal to his brain? Whatever the case, to him that's real, just as real as what anyone else sees.

In my direct experience, as I mentioned above, in the hierarchy of the nature of our experience, there is a "mind" that is creating the "body/mind combo" that we assume is who we "are."

I'm saying this "body/mind combo" is an

assumption

we are making.

This is not something to believe or not believe, it is only something we can actually be aware of in our direct experience as the Consciousness/Being that we are.

You keep talking about facts and truths but they are only, your facts, your truths based on your opinions which are a product of your secondary process of mind interpreting the world around you based on your previous experiences and the programing of your environment. Like for example you seem to think a big part of what motivates people is a need to fit in and be accepted so the logical conclusion is that's what motivates you or else you wouldn't think that. You look at others and project your own feelings on them and you do so because that allows you to maintain this invented interpretation of reality not being real. Which fits really well with your opinion that people do what they do to protect the mind image. The problem is, not everyone is that way. Unfortunately you in further trying to protect your interpretation have manufactured an answer for that by just telling yourself they are too caught up in the programming to see things your way.

True, I can't know what anyone else experiences.

I am simply trying to describe what I am directly experiencing, and wondering if anyone is also experiencing it.

Obviously, as a body/mind combo I also experience everything that you are describing in your posts above, but, simultaneously I directly experience Being Consciousness and Being Mind, and these last two perspectives is where I am trying to come from in my posts.

Obviously this is not working because as human beings we share and can only communicate in the world where we are body/minds, but since fundamentally and originally and authentically we are Being/Consciousness, I'm aware that we can all directly experience our Primary Nature also.

We simply can't communicate about it, because it becomes relative, since we have to use language which is a part of the "body/mind combo" world.

 

[SPG*]

Dude(s) if you think reality is an illusion then you believe Exsistance is created before us...?
Individual rewards I say...
Lol

(Yes! Our eyes are tricked by some spell). Why not?

 

[HempKat]

I am going to try to explain what I mean by mind interpreting what the mind is creating itself, but this can't be proven by me since it is only something that I experience directly in my own consciousness. But, maybe others experience this also.

The best example I can use is to compare this waking experience we are having to the dreaming experiences we have.

When we are dreaming our mind is imagining and creating whatever is occuring in the dream. Simultaneously, the body/mind combo that is being dreamed by the mind interprets this dream and the body/mind combo responds accordingly.

If we are honest and actually pay attention, we will notice the only difference between the waking state and the dreaming state is that in the waking state we are much more attached to our body, and in the dream state we are not. In the dream, as a rule, if something happens that is quite uncomfortable, we simply wake up or have another dream where we experience another scenario.

This is what I mean when I say that mind is creating and interpreting experience in our waking state. Obviously this is not something everyone pays attention to, but this is mostly because of cultural programming that makes one assume that they are primarily a body/mind.

But, if one actually pays attention to what actually occurs in our direct experience, they will notice that our body/mind is not primary, and not even secondary, but a tertiary event.

Consciousness/Being >>> Mind >>> Body/Mind combo >>> Perception/Interpretation

This is my current perspective to the hierarchy of our experience.



I guess, what I'm trying to say is that there is a distinction between the "mind" and the "body/mind" combo, that the mind is imagining the body/mind combo and the "body/mind combo" is interpreting the data provided by the "mind."

I realize this might seem stupid, but I am trying to describe the actual nature of our experience, which is different from the way we "seem" to experience what we perceive on a moment to moment basis.

This does take a little contemplation to notice, but without a doubt, almost anyone can see what is occuring, if they let go of their assumptions during the contemplation and pay attention only to their direct experience.



In my direct experience, as I mentioned above, in the hierarchy of the nature of our experience, there is a "mind" that is creating the "body/mind combo" that we assume is who we "are."

I'm saying this "body/mind combo" is an we are making.

This is not something to believe or not believe, it is only something we can actually be aware of in our direct experience as the Consciousness/Being that we are.



True, I can't know what anyone else experiences.

I am simply trying to describe what I am directly experiencing, and wondering if anyone is also experiencing it.

Obviously, as a body/mind combo I also experience everything that you are describing in your posts above, but, simultaneously I directly experience Being Consciousness and Being Mind, and these last two perspectives is where I am trying to come from in my posts.

Obviously this is not working because as human beings we share and can only communicate in the world where we are body/minds, but since fundamentally and originally and authentically we are Being/Consciousness, I'm aware that we can all directly experience our Primary Nature also.

We simply can't communicate about it, because it becomes relative, since we have to use language which is a part of the "body/mind combo" world.

Which all goes back to my initial point. Since you are admitting that you're just stating your perceptions, your opinions, your beliefs, etc and that you can't possibly know what other people think, experience, feel, etc. unless they tell you then why not couch you philosophy in language that is reflective of this rather then trying to clutter it with words like fact, absolute truth, etc. especially when you even admit those things in your philosophy are not real and don't exist?

What I've objected to all along and what I notice others object to is when you try to state things as factual knowledge you have that others don't or are blind to. If you were to avoid definitive statements like "this is why most people..." and substitute it with "In my opinion this is why most people..." I think you'll find people more able to consider the points you're trying to make.

That's my opinion though which is why I say that I only think they'll be more willing to consider.... rather then saying it like it's a fact that if you say it differently people will definitely consider...

This whole exchange that's been going on between us for months now also serves to illustrate my point that everything is relative. All along all I've ever meant to do was suggest a better way to express what is clearly your opinions yet you have seen it as an attack against you and your opinions.

 

[southflorida]

Which all goes back to my initial point. Since you are admitting that you're just stating your perceptions, your opinions, your beliefs, etc and that you can't possibly know what other people think, experience, feel, etc. unless they tell you then why not couch you philosophy in language that is reflective of this rather then trying to clutter it with words like fact, absolute truth, etc. especially when you even admit those things in your philosophy are not real and don't exist?

What I've objected to all along and what I notice others object to is when you try to state things as factual knowledge you have that others don't or are blind to. If you were to avoid definitive statements like "this is why most people..." and substitute it with "In my opinion this is why most people..." I think you'll find people more able to consider the points you're trying to make.

That's my opinion though which is why I say that I only think they'll be more willing to consider.... rather then saying it like it's a fact that if you say it differently people will definitely consider...

This whole exchange that's been going on between us for months now also serves to illustrate my point that everything is relative. All along all I've ever meant to do was suggest a better way to express what is clearly your opinions yet you have seen it as an attack against you and your opinions.

Okay HempKat...I see what you're saying

You know, the most interesting thing is that all words and all concepts (thoughts, beliefs, assumptions, convictions, etc) that have been built using these words are human inventions.

This is probably the first thing that got me to actually notice that there might be more going on then I was being told by my culture (parents, relatives, friends, teachers, media, etc...etc...etc).

When I realized that every thought that I have and every perception that I perceive is interpreted by my mind using these concepts - I had my first serious insight - and this is when I realized that everything is simply the way it is - while my mind is taking this "raw IS experience" and turning it into a relative interpretation.

Since I noticed that all that I interpret relates to me - or to be more exact, to my beliefs/assumptions - this started me down the path of paying attention to what my mind was actually doing on a moment-to-moment basis.

And the rest, as they say is history

 

[floralheart]

I watch tv. I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here.

 

[Happy 7]

Reality is exactly what I think it is, until it isn't.