Amendment breakdown times

[rasputin]

Bah. I just had a response typed up and got the stupid "you must reload page" and it wiped out my post. So I'm gonna make this short & sweet.

Bigshrimp, think of those soil conditioners you mention as multi-vitamins. If you have a healthy, balanced diet there is no evidence that I am yet aware of that suggests taking in 5x the amount of a given vitamin is beneficial, or more beneficial than simply meeting the required amounts. Do you have any such evidence?

That said, I think all that you mention are great and serve a purpose. That you imply they are somehow similar to using soluble, ionic nutrients is where you lose me. Ionic nutes bypass the soils buffering capacities and force feed the roots. This is why hydro grows take great pains to measure nutes and add them in specific orders to avoid burning the plants. This is categorically different from feeding the soil.

Why do you feel pointing out this distinction is bad? Or that it warrants your comment about being cool? Can we discuss this without bullshit sarcasm? Cuz I can get just as snarky if you'd like. I'd just rather not.

 

[bigshrimp]

Bah. I just had a response typed up and got the stupid "you must reload page" and it wiped out my post. So I'm gonna make this short & sweet.

Bigshrimp, think of those soil conditioners you mention as multi-vitamins. If you have a healthy, balanced diet there is no evidence that I am yet aware of that suggests taking in 5x the amount of a given vitamin is beneficial, or more beneficial than simply meeting the required amounts. Do you have any such evidence?

That said, I think all that you mention are great and serve a purpose. That you imply they are somehow similar to using soluble, ionic nutrients is where you lose me. Ionic nutes bypass the soils buffering capacities and force feed the roots. This is why hydro grows take great pains to measure nutes and add them in specific orders to avoid burning the plants. This is categorically different from feeding the soil.

Why do you feel pointing out this distinction is bad? Or that it warrants your comment about being cool? Can we discuss this without bullshit sarcasm? Cuz I can get just as snarky if you'd like. I'd just rather not.

All of the things mentioned are manipulations of soil and plant systems for our goals.

LOS type growers commonly add things that are disruptive to soil ecology. That CT, SST, Coco water, all contain soluble nutrients. SST and Coco water have sugars. Not to mention force feeding enymes, hormones, and pgrs.

We decide that the benifits of these outweigh the negatives.

I don't see how that is all that different from using something with a portion of soluble nutrients. If we are primarily relying on natural processes to feed our plant - its organic soil. If not then what ratio is ok?




If i were growing people as a business...

 

[xmobotx]

Well, CT done proper is a microbial "boost" & offers very little in the way of any soluble nutes. SST is the rough equivalent of sprouting a bunch of barley in your mix & reflects on the practice of ley rotation {where a crop of barley is part of the planting rotation in soil-building} again coco water is about providing enzymes {like SST} & has very little in the way of "NPK"

i think you have a valid point {@ least for consideration} in that we are providing luxury additions of microbes, hormones, enzymes & PGRs w/ these kinds of "teas"

and, the steer towards the "water-only" method tends to negate that consideration

many folks new to LOS/ROLS apply these concoctions as a regimen, concerned about the quantity, order, frequency of application but, FTMP these should be applied as an occasional gentle nudge and used to get a freshly mixed soil activated ~not as a "feeding regimen"

your goal w/ living soil is that water-only ideal

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

the diminishing returns thing is spot on

with healthy SFW populations, additions such as CT make little if any difference. think of it like the microbial populations you seek to multiply in your ACT brew are alive in full force in the living soil ~it's doing it's job as a habitat for the SFW

the enzymes you get from sprouting seeds or adding coconut water may be active and present in your soil mix already ~largely negating the addition of more

similarly, w/ a healthy plant foliars or drenches w/ aloe make little to no difference compared to watering a good living water-only soil mix. It's night & day when a plant has been predated upon or is suffering from some malady ~not so much when the plant is already healthy

and; fulvic acid is a component of compost/humus additions! this really emphasizes the importance of getting the humus additions right. Good, living compost/EWC/vermicompost is the cornerstone of a true organic grow & part of that is aged additions complete w/ humic and fulvic acids ~from the most plant-natural sources

So are you saying that a lot of the things that Coot has recommended over the years is wrong?

 

[supermanlives]

I got me popcorn . let the show continue. lol interesting thread

 

[redlaser]

So are you saying that a lot of the things that Coot has recommended over the years is wrong?

I'm curious as to what you think goes against what Coot recommended

 

[bigshrimp]

Good points - you guys are right after all, cant get me to argue against good humus and ecological diversity.

I just see some incongruities with the living soil "paradigm" taken to the extreme.

I'm doing reamend soil in 7 gallons so i cant speak about no-till and its dynamics. I guess once i get there ill see.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

I'm curious as to what you think goes against what Coot recommended

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the enzymes you get from sprouting seeds or adding coconut water may be active and present in your soil mix already ~largely negating the addition of more

similarly, w/ a healthy plant foliars or drenches w/ aloe make little to no difference compared to watering a good living water-only soil mix. It's night & day when a plant has been predated upon or is suffering from some malady ~not so much when the plant is already healthy"[/FONT]

Those are direct from Coot.

 

[waktoo]

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the enzymes you get from sprouting seeds or adding coconut water may be active and present in your soil mix already ~largely negating the addition of more

similarly, w/ a healthy plant foliars or drenches w/ aloe make little to no difference compared to watering a good living water-only soil mix. It's night & day when a plant has been predated upon or is suffering from some malady ~not so much when the plant is already healthy"[/FONT]

Those are direct from Coot.

Uh, I'm new here so please forgive me, but I'm VERY familiar with the ideas and writings of Coot. From another forum...

This does NOT sound like him.

Did not these lines come directly from xmobotx's post #40?

 

[rasputin]

All of the things mentioned are manipulations of soil and plant systems for our goals.

LOS type growers commonly add things that are disruptive to soil ecology. That CT, SST, Coco water, all contain soluble nutrients. SST and Coco water have sugars. Not to mention force feeding enymes, hormones, and pgrs.

We decide that the benifits of these outweigh the negatives.

I don't see how that is all that different from using something with a portion of soluble nutrients. If we are primarily relying on natural processes to feed our plant - its organic soil. If not then what ratio is ok?

If i were growing people as a business...

I'm not in the growing people business so there's that. I'm in the growing plants business. I find people are often much more sensitive than even the most finicky plants. Often for no other reason than because their ego has not been catered to. Plants are much more resilient and thick skinned.

I'll respond in reverse...

Relying on natural processes to feed our soil is what organic soil is. I actually dislike the "organic soil" term because organic is a buzz word and everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and say they are growing organically because it's gaining favor in the market. Soil is the important part. Organic liquid nutes are not inherently a part of organic soil growing and more importantly, soil does not require any liquid nutes, organic or otherwise. This is the crucial distinction. Soil is soil. I prefer microbial growing, a term MicrobeMan came up with, because that is what we are doing, growing microbes. It's a more accurate term and it cuts out the buzzword bullshit.

Anyhow, that you may be using liquid organic nutes does not necessarily mean it is organic soil, if you're using an inert soilless medium and feeding liquid organic nutes that isn't soil. Soil is a very specific thing, medium containing nutrients and organic matter, to say the least. Liquid organic nutes can be used on soil, soilless, whatever. You can use it on organic soil but it's not necessary. If it is, your soil is lacking. It's really that simple.

You really don't see how using organic nutrients that need to be mineralized before becoming plant available is different from using inorganic mineral forms of nutrients that are immediately available? One requires organic matter and microbes, the other does not - it often actually kills microbiology.

Liquid organic nutes do not harm micro life like synthetics but they often contain preservatives to maintain shelf life that are unnecessary but most importantly, as it relates to organic soil, is that they similarly provide soluble forms of nutrients that bypass the soils buffering capacities and force feed the roots. Feeding the plant rather than feeding the soil. If you are going to feed the plant in this way you don't need to grow in soil.

Supplementing soil with soluble nutes, without any negative results, should be an indication your soil was lacking to begin with. It needed that nutrition. The soil wasn't containing sufficient nutrition and needed more. People often lightly amend their soil because they are concerned of overdoing it and then need to use liquid nutes to make up for the short fall. This doesn't mean all soil is similarly lacking.

I use Organic Gem, it has soluble nutrients, and if I use it on my soil plants I get N claw. I've had to back it down as far as 5mL per 5 gallons to not get claw because it's simply too much for them, the soil is sufficiently rich. Also, it takes away the soils and plants ability to dictate what is available and uptaken. It force feeds the plants roots which as I've noticed is unnecessary and counterproductive. My soil does not need soluble N. Or P. Or K.

As Xmo pointed out, the nutrient payload in CT, SST, coconut water, aloe, et al; are practically nil relative to what is found in inorganic mineral nutes or soluble organic nutes. So much so, I can't believe you really are trying to make the argument that they are somehow comparable, organic or otherwise.

They are used for reasons that go far beyond any perceived NPK value, like soil conditioning. They are used primarily for their bennies, enzymes, PGRs, amino acids, carbohydrates, et al;. Try growing a plant in a soilless medium and feed it only compost tea of EWC & molasses, SST, aloe and coconut water. Let us know how it goes.

Further, show me a plant that is burned as a result of CT, SST, coconut water, aloe vera, or fulvic acid. I can show you a thousand plants burned by FloraNova, GO, PBP, AN, H&G, GH, et al;. How is that so if they are all the same?

The hang up here seems to be that you see organic soil as including or requiring liquid organic nutrient applications and I'm saying it doesn't. Soil does not need soluble fertilizer applications. Just water. Like plants outside. Who feeds the Redwoods bottled nutes? Or the Amazon? Its all organic matter and microbes.

Where we manipulate things, and by the way - who said manipulation was a bad thing? - is by allowing them to grow in soil that is teeming with microbes, heaping amounts of high quality compost and organic matter, and diversity of inputs. Along with providing them an artificially stable environment and specific genetic selections, this is how we act as, as you said, change agents and manipulate the plants to perform at levels that meet our own specific wants and desires.

You really think "force feeding" enzymes or plant hormones from something like kelp meal is somehow comparable to pouring soluble mineral nutrients on a soilless medium or even a living soil?

 

[dank.frank]

I for one, say skip the whole bottled retail products (it gets to be a bit tedious measuring 5 or 6 different things every time they get hungry) and suggest you dive head first into producing TRULY organic medicine by learning how to properly amended your soil.

No better soil, in my opinion, than one you just have to add water to make the magic happen...


NSPB

And the clan made sure their pocket superMOD banned this account...ROFL - but it is good to see everyone coming to the same conclusion I did YEARS ago.



dank.Frank

 

[rasputin]

All hail dankfrank, inventor of organic soil growing.

Where would we be without you, df?

Have you never heard of Bongaloid, LC, Suby, Jaykush, Scaybeez, MicrobeMan? That's just canna specific. Jeff Lowenfels and Gil Carandang among many others have been laying it down outside of the narrow canna world for years, decades even.

This is not news by any stretch.

 

[Weird]

some of the dankest plants ive seen to date were outdoors being run in a mix that was attributed to the keeper (of positronics iirc) but lets face it the organics we use are painfully old and we as a community are the last to embrace them

the only reason living soil or organics is considered cutting edge in marijuana cultivation is because since there was no vehicle to profit from sharing the knowledge no on did much

until the internet that is

once again some of the things that matter in organics is the source of your sources and the things you cant see (microbiology)

we are a society sold on the myth we cannot intuitively understand a world we are a living part of and in this regard the practice of organics says otherwise

 

[Weird]

id also like to mention that there seems to be a natural progression for most all people who embrace the good weed to slowly come to realize how effective natural mechanisms are

it takes observational wisdom (requires time) or a bunch of trust (requires faith a dirty word to todays youth) in proven natural methods

for me it took both

needless to say I know alot of people who have slowly transformed into "hippies" for a lack of a better word

when we reestablish a relationship with the natural world it engages parts of our physiological being that has evolved to be engaged with the world it evolved within

most of our disease and strife are merely byproducts of biological imbalance which is created by our actions and decisions individually and as communities not by he potential of the planet or the capacity of the natural world

mankind's population exploded using technologies that cause imbalance and this is due to our ignorance

science is expanding at such a rate that our understanding of the natural world is teaching us otherwise, and with the new knowledge we can act in a restorative manner that not only fixes the natural world but in turn positively effects us as we repair our relationship with it

the microbiological connections and the allelopathy the natural world we evolved to maintain balance in concert with being severed can be restored on individual and as communities/ecosystems

you can see the dynamic play out here on the boards

 

[dank.frank]

LOL - Ras - funny - I didn't mean it like that - as much as I'm looking back and it's funny at the ridicule I got for saying that it could be done - just adding water to get the job done...mimicing rain.

I surely don't think I "invented" anything - I was simply stating I promoted the idea heavily for many years only to find nothing but hostility for doing so...

I think it's awesome people are finally understanding and chaning their gardens to allow the plant to dictate it's own needs...

Many of the current people that post about such things now were no where to be seen even just a couple years ago...even though being part of forums the entire time.



dank.Frank

 

[idiit]

i'm an organic noob, yet even i understand the power of rols!

like the movie gremlins; just add water ( ph adjusted, declorinated)!

so, what about my idea of soaking hard to chelate organic minerals, calcium, bone meal in an effective micro organism water soluable solution for a few months, even longer prior to amending?

 

[rasputin]

Really? Hostility from who? I know you mentioned you had some dust ups with Gascan but I wouldn't think that was over soil, was it? Seems like you two were both using the same general ideas.

As for your comment on the lurkers who are recently popping up, so what man? Why discourage them because you were here before them? Maybe they didn't feel comfortable posting before because people were acting like you are right now and it turned them off? You've said yourself Gas and co turned you off from posting and you felt like you couldn't get a fair shake so you just stopped. Other people could be feeling the same way as you did.

 

[dank.frank]

I'm not sure how saying I'm glad people are coming to the same conclusion I did equates to discouraging anyone...

You were never part of the Organic Fanatic group...I don't expect you to understand; Nor does it rightly matter. The past is the past.

I'm just glad people are seeing the light and producing better medicine for themselves and others.

No need to translate or infer or deduce anything more from it than that, as that is all it means.



dank.Frank

 

[BurnOne]

Would you guys please leave the drama and chest pounding at the door?
Take a minute to think about the newer growers coming in here who may be turned off by your off topic backbiting.
These forums are for HELPING others grow cannabis. There are other rooms where you can discuss other topics. Toker's Den comes to mind.
Be respectful of others. Some people do have "thin skin" and they are just as welcomed here as anyone else.
This should be a place to attract new and established growers, not repel them.
Burn1

 

[rasputin]

BurnOne, will do.