Amendment breakdown times

[Commonwealth]

Neptune's Harvest is cold processed and a full fish emulsion - not hydrolyzed. http://www.neptunesharvest.com/emulsions.html

Easy as googling before turning people off to the best available brand on the east coast.

 

[rasputin]

It's not an emulsion, it's a hydrolysate. The web page spells that out very clearly right at the top. They are showing why emulsions are inferior to Neptune's Harvest Hydrolyzed Fish.

From your link

The main differences between Fish Emulsions, Solubles or "so called" Hydrolyzed Fish Concentrates with the Nitrogen being four or greater, and Neptune's Harvest Hydrolyzed Fish are as follows:

http://www.neptunesharvest.com/fishfacts.html

Reading is as easy as 1, 2, 3.

Who is turning people off to fish hydrolysate?

Fish hydrolysate is great stuff. If you're on the east coast I recommend Organic Gem.

 

[idiit]

Last were the minerals like rock dust, greensand and dolomite.

^^ b1

cool subject and i believe a very important one.

first off, on this subject i'm a learner, not a teacher. you guys are way more advanced than me in these areas. sincere statement.

i was reading up on the amendment rate for azomite trace minerals and they were recommending something like 1lb./sq ft! now even an organic noob like me knows organic is about ballance and this looked whacked out of ballance.

then i learned that trace minerals are the most difficult and time consuming of amendments to chelate by the microherds.

then i learned a little about some prehistoric micro-organisms called rna extremophile archaea that are really good at breaking down things like trace minerals that dna micro herd have a hard time chewing up and digesting (chelating).

^^ https://www.google.com/search?q=arc...8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

then i researched sea-solids and learned that they are excellent as plant food and the sea is one of the few places that pre-dna (rna) extremophile archaea still exist.

so, chelated trace minerals perfectly chelated and ballanced by nature is one benefit of using sea-solids.

i took this one step further. i have a 5 gallon bucket of azomite soaking in a de-clorinated water soluble commercial microherd supplemented with archaea. some black strap molasses added to keep the microherd #'s up. i'm letting the micro-herd digest (chelate) the trace minerals and then using the partially chelated trace minerals in my indoor recycled organic living soil.

i have another smaller bucket with bone meal and another bucket with calcitic lime soaking in the same archaea amended solution.

after 3 months soak time i'm adding the trace minerals, lime and bone meal soaked with the archaea amended supplements. the plants do look better to me.

i'm going to add these three archaea chelated amendments to my outdoor garden spots and watch.

as the trace minerals, bone meal and lime continue to soak/chelate i hope the available supplements ( chelated) will improve my results.

i use sea-crop and it is water soluable. the archaea chelated trace minerals, lime and bone meal will hopefully stay in the root periphery longer is the idea.

i lived in the country with a septic tank for a few years. the septic guy showed me all the vitamins that were still intact after many years (previous inhabitants) at the bottom the of septic tank. this was a very valuable lesson in the difference between amendments and availability of amendments!

 

[Weird]

It is PAINFULLY obvious, those who want the benefit of organics but aren't willing to take a
"risk" or change the paradigm of control.

bottle fed organics are inferior regardless of source

living soil replicates the natural environment that the plant has evolved with.

It is the best model for ESTABLISHING a ONGOING COLONY of microbiology whose benefit to the plant INCREASES OVER TIME

in essence you are growing healthy soil and the plants gain optimal benefit

with feed in the water you are feeding the plant as if you were the microbiology in the soil and guess what, the plant evolved to use its root system to seek out exactly what it needs to THRIVE and it can only communicate at its fullest potential in LIVING SOIL and only living soil can offer ALL of the components a plant has evolve to require.

Not that you cant grow great pot other ways but you can't grow better pot naturally because the plant evolved to grow this way

its all about the allelopathy and yes boys and girls even secondary metabolites benefit over this. and while we can target individual mechanism in lving soil and add them to our traditional gardens and see a benefit, it is the overall symphony of microbial life that exists in natural soil that is the game changer and its the colonization and management of this life that changes the game.

signed

someone who KILLS it using chems and bottled nutes and loves to control feed in fact I truly believe it is an art, or at least in some of my grows it was

reality is at best the plant did what it would have done naturally just took alot more work

 

[VerdantGreen]

i think its important to point out that bottled nutrition/fast release ferts and living soil are NOT always mutually exclusive, and imo to eshew one or the other out of nothing more than ideology or desperation for peer approval is to turn your back on a bunch of resources that might come in useful to you at some point.

i run a recycled soil with great results, most of the nutrition comes from slow amendments like kelp meal, rock dusts, EWC etc - but i also use fast release and bottled butes to boost certain elements like nitrogen at some points during the grow. Some i use every time, others when i feel they might help. personally i feel i can get better end results and yield efficiency this way than if i rigidly stuck to one 'discipline' or the other.

so my advice is not to limit yourselves just so as you can say 'i dont use this or that'

respectfully

VG

 

[Weird]

i think its important to point out that bottled nutrition/fast release ferts and living soil are NOT always mutually exclusive, and imo to eshew one or the other out of nothing more than ideology or desperation for peer approval is to turn your back on a bunch of resources that might come in useful to you at some point.

i run a recycled soil with great results, most of the nutrition comes from slow amendments like kelp meal, rock dusts, EWC etc - but i also use fast release and bottled butes to boost certain elements like nitrogen at some points during the grow. Some i use every time, others when i feel they might help. personally i feel i can get better end results and yield efficiency this way than if i rigidly stuck to one 'discipline' or the other.

so my advice is not to limit yourselves just so as you can say 'i dont use this or that'

respectfully

VG

im not saying everything organic in a bottle is inferior

im saying addressing issues ad hoc regardless of how successful you do it (I am downright fantastic at it tbh) with products and methods designed to do as much is not as effective as having balanced living soil as you are simply replicating SOME of what already exists

if your soil needs those pick me ups then your living soil is incomplete and im not saying your end product is inferior because you use them to complete it either, im saying that if your soil was spot on it would be unnecessary

now for those people I know using recycled living soil sans those bottled products their results get better over the course following the same guidelines

my guess is that the allelopathy of the microbiology becomes more powerful the longer it established between itself and the plants rhizosphere over subsequent generations (or crops)

to TOUT bottled products as perfecting the process is not correct.

They provide a solution

but remember that implies there are problems

 

[rasputin]

Weird is spot on.

The results from one person's garden & soil cannot be extrapolated to other gardens along the same lines simply because they use similar amendments or share a similar approach. There are too many variables. It is silly to assume others experience the same issues and dare I say a bit arrogant?

In plain, because your soil may lack N does not mean everyone else's does as well. I would think this would go without saying but that just shows how much I know.

VG, you are blaming the wand when you should be blaming the magician.

The idea that one is being rigid or attempting to gain others approval by adhering to a particular discipline is just absolute shit. It reeks of this modern "everyone is a winner" nonsense where no one is wrong, they are just correct 'in their own unique way'. I won't let that stand. It's relativism gone mad. Some things are relative, others are not. If that disappoints you, welcome to reality.

I wonder if you would you say to a martial arts practitioner who is following technique from his master, who specializes in an ancient form that some modern studios have abandoned in an effort to make the discipline more accessible to beginners, that they are being rigid and limiting in an attempt at seeking approval from others.

Is a chef being rigid or limiting himself by following a decades old traditional recipe to the T without allowing substitutes or approved equals? Some would say he is being dedicated, passionate, and respectful of those who have come before him.

I admire nature's simplicity and effectiveness and seek to replicate it's processes as best I can in an artificial environment due to prohibition because I think mother nature has us all beat in experience and results.

I know you had some bad dust ups with some of the cult members because they didn't share your enthusiasm for guanos and grow store bottled nutes but it ain't me, babe. It ain't me you're looking for. At some point you have to move on from whatever bad taste those guys left you with.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Ras, wierd, hi guys. sorry if it seemed that i was posting as a retort to what you said specifically... that wasnt the case... in fact Ras i thought your posts were pretty much spot on, as usual.
let me expand on what i meant a little.
i use fast release guanos in my mix because i want to give my plants less nitrogen during mid to late flower than they get in the first few weeks when they are stretching, (stretch is yield to a scrogger) i find that a small shot of N guano in my mix will facilitate this and then become depleted, leaving the lower availability of N from the rest of the mix (neem meal, compost etc etc) to keep them happy whilst they build flowers. i find they finish much more consistently better this way. Until i had perfected this i wasnt as happy with my buds grown in recycled soil as i was when i was using the soil once for cannabis and then recycling it in my regular garden.
I know perfectly well that the plants will grow quite happily in a richer mix but im talking about fine tuning here.

as for using bottles i prefer to run my soil quite lean as again i prefer the buds i get that way, but running new cuts and plants from seed means that i have a bunch of plants that will be happiest with slightly different availabilities and i would prefer to add a little extra for the plants that need it rather than run my soil rich enough for all - bacause again i feel the buds are more consistently smooth that way.
as im sure you will have noticed. even if you run number of plants from the same batch of seeds, some will stay greener at the end for longer than others, again its about fine tuning. when i used new soil each time i would actually have a slightly different organic mix for each of the different cuts i regularly ran to get the absolute best out of each, my grows are pretty intensive and my pots smallish so there is less wiggle room than in a big room with huge pots.
i much prefer using recycled soil but i miss that complete control so ive evolved the way i grow a bit and im happy now.

VG

 

[rasputin]

'ello

No apologies necessary man, I was similarly typing out loud but addressing specific ideas which is terribly difficult to convey, I've learned. I know where you are coming from as it relates to your use of both living soil and bottled nutes. My point is just that doing so takes it out of the realm of organic soil specifically into a hybrid approach. I think this is a source of a lot of confusion and contention because while it utilizes aspects of both soil and hydro it isn't exactly one or the other yet there really isn't anywhere else to post about it but the organic soil forum.

It's not a value judgment, there are different things necessary to different approaches.

I just want the organic soil forum to be allowed to be what it is without trying to make it something else just for the sake of inclusiveness, especially if it comes at the expense of diminishing what organic soil is. Hybrid approaches like yours should be showcased for their own merits rather than being reduced to simply organic soil and its sometimes narrow parameters. Perhaps we need a new forum?

I also wanted to address the notion that growing in living soil is about being in the cool kid club as well as this pervasive relativism that has been creeping into this forum.

I dig your approach and can relate, I did something very similar for the first year or two using a lightly mixed soil that couldn't sustain plants for the entirety of the flowering phase, purposely. The aim was exactly like yours, to control what is available to the plant, induce senescence via 'starvation', and be able to fine tune each element by choosing to deliver by hand rather than leaving it to the soil to decide when and how much.

For seed grows I share your view, I still utilize this type of an approach, using reused soil that is not re-amended and allows me to see what the plant wants most and uses quickly and fine tune it by hand. On subsequent grows I mix the soil mindful of that plants particular needs, ie; big calcium feeder, light N feeder, et al; I've come to see this as not entirely necessary, within reason. I have seen firsthand that plants will yellow up even when the soil contains sufficient N for another cycle. Which is why I started to see that what I was doing wasn't exactly necessary and my desire to control things was perhaps unnecessary. The plant knows far better than me.

Over time I let go of the wheel, so to speak, and let the soil drive. I've noticed significant gains from doing so and haven't looked back even though I have continued to experiment with hybrid feeding programs. I just like to fuck around.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi again Ras, i think we perhaps have different definitions of 'organic'. i take no slight at your idea that mine is a hybrid approach but imo it is still completely organic. biobizz is just seaweed and molasses, and sh1t is as organic as you can get nothing more natural than that imo.
anyway i was really aiming what i said at people who are aspiring/learning to become organic gardeners, and ive always been of the opinion that excluding certain options from the get go isnt necessarily a good idea. the fewer 'rules' and exclusions the better imo, as long as it stays within the realms of organic practice.
the way we grow is always shaped by our limitations as well as our preferences. my limitations are space and time, and probably being a bit of a control freak

also, i think my frames of reference and comparison are different from most peoples, i think peeps that come to recycled soil from f*cked up chem grows will see it as a bigger revelation. i came from very dialled 'one use' organic soil and its taken a while and some tweaking to get (with recycled) 100% the results that i was used to . I also do sh1t loads of regular organic veggie and ornamental gardening, thats my job, so i enjoy messing about with 'control' when i grow my weed.

p.s. dont you think that with 'crop' plants and organic farming that we are actually trying to better mother nature rather than emulate it? if you look at the wild versions of our crop plants there is no comparison.Organic Farming is much more intensive and high yielding than mother nature and needs to be that way imo.


VG

 

[rasputin]

I didn't say it wasn't organic. It's just not soil. Fertigation is a form of hydroponics. Soil is self-contained in that all the necessary nutrition is in the medium. Water only organic soil is quite different from inert medium fed organic liquid nutrients or organic soil fed organic liquid nutrients. Similar but still different. Thought experiment: is the process in which the Redwoods grow the same as the container grown tomatoes in an old lady's backyard with organic liquid nutes? Both are organic but one is soil, one is hydro.

That is, I think, what many people overlook and it leads to much confusion in the organic soil forum. I don't begrudge beginners from using bottled organic nutes, however they get into it is up to them and the important thing is they are doing it. But that doesn't mean it is soil and the distinction is worth noting. I don't see why some people see this as a bad thing or some evil attempt at discouraging others. Not that you are saying that but the general vibe is that making the distinction is some elitist move to diminish others.

I hear ya on the beginner thing and think ultimately, the important thing is more people growing organically. That said, some ways of doing it are better than others and most come to realize that over time. Look at the people who eventually reuse soil or try no-till. They are absolutely over the moon with the results and often say "why didn't I do this sooner?"

I went through a similar progression as you mention, it sounds like we both started growing organically in very much the same way and honestly, I think I learned the hard way about what works and could have possibly saved some time if I went straight into making a complete soil and letting the soil feed the plant instead of trying to control things and using this bottle for that nute or this one for the other. I don't regret it, learning first hand is essential to gaining a true understanding and it's made me the grower I am today.

And yes, we are trying to be better. But she laid the foundation from which it all is built and acknowledging that doesn't mean we can't strive to beat her ass at her own game.

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks ras, i see how you are making the distinction now.. but tbh i think that occasional liquid feed is in many ways as close to how it happens in nature as an amended or topdressed soil is.

i guess i would be 90% 'water only organic soil' as most of the time i dont need to add anything but water, but i have no problem in using some liquid feed if i think it is necessary.

i am certain that, for my own tastes at least, that using a lighter soil gives a better product. On a couple of occasions i have had aborted seed runs where the pollen was infertile. i use a richer soil for seed runs and the resulting smoke from the richer soil was fine but considerably lower quality than the same cut run with 'just enough'.

nice to chat, and i must say its great to see you posting in organic soil. i'd be interested to hear about yours soil mix for sure.

cheers

VG

p.s. the redwoods, grown from nutrients bought up from the sea by the spawning salmon, has to be one of the most important and beautiful pieces of cycling one could imagine!

 

[bigshrimp]

Just so we are clear - what ratio of soluble to insoluble organic nutrients do i need to use to be cool?

 

[bigshrimp]

Is anyone really doing water only? No SST, no CT, no fulvic,- all of those are effecting soil population dynamics.

I dont think you want to follow the whole replicate nature as close as possible idea to its extreme. You end up leaving important tools behind.

 

[Weird]

Just so we are clear - what ratio of soluble to insoluble organic nutrients do i need to use to be cool?

Let me help you since you simply don't understand


brew your microbes from the best bottles and pour the finest teas into your substrate or let your soil be the brewer and instead of making teas have them constantly available by planning your soil properly in the first place

and to answer your next post yes I know plenty of water only dudes including myself and they have existed this was for years and years

water only soils are nothing new either is organics nor are recycled organic soils, just like it wasn't new when the 3 little birds were talking about it here a decade ago.

bottles give a more immediate reaction and more control and for someone who is used to that control it is very difficult to consider risking the unknown for what is assumed to be the same result

it has been in my experience, however when you have a healthy balanced living soil the results are which you simply do not want any other

it doesnt take alot to fill a bucket with a good organic water only mix and put it in a corner of your grow and figure it out

I think one of the disconnects people have is getting the right precursors for the microbiology as in there is a huge difference in performance when using quality castings and composts

the compost and castings can come pres established with thriving microbiology or it can be diminished due to source, handling, age on shelf etc

the real workers here we cant see so we need to have some other way to assure they are active and the best way it to test plants in the mix

imho when you get the right compost and castings all of this will perfect sense and tbh without them I would be using earth juice or something similar if i couldnt find some beneficial package that could replicate the microbial life they would be supplying

 

[bigshrimp]

Sorry i'm more confused than ever, You think that you are going to get the best possible expression out of your plants without using tools such as foliars, SST, CT, sugars, etc...?

 

[Weird]

Sorry i'm more confused than ever, You think that you are going to get the best possible expression out of your plants without using tools such as foliars, SST, CT, sugars, etc...?

yes and I have known many people over the years that use amendments and plain water and kill it.

Understand that those tools foliars, teas, sugars, are great and will give you the most visible results when needed (aka when something is missing) but when all the plants needs are met the benefits of these additions suffer from the law of declining returns (at best).

I understand the difficulty you are having believing this.

One of the most common things you hear in conversations among growers of this style is that it was too simple to be believable.

remember though, as I shared before the level of success of that method seems directly related to quality of castings/compost first and other inputs after that.

Yes you can use teas but compost is the optimal breeding ground that will continue to grow microbiology throughout the life of your grow.

Not that you should abandon those tools but the focus should be on the optimizing your soil and using those tools to bridge those gaps till you do.

 

[bigshrimp]

I'm not going to argue with sourcing high quality humus and establishing a stable ecosystem.

Those are a baseline. And a fine mantra too.

I disagree on the point of diminishing returns.

A CT is always going to boost microbial populations above carrying capacity.

SST/Coco Water/Aloe - Providing elevated levels of enzymes, hormones, pgrs. Demonstrated benefits used by the best organic growers here.

Fulvic - Have you ever used fulvic acid? Try playing around early mid flower with it. Tell me that you don't see effects.

The idea that a healthy soil is as good as it gets honesty just insults my intelligence and philosophically runs counter to what i believe humans to be. Humans are not passive observers, We are agents of change. We modify environments to suit us. The natural world provides plenty of systems for us to study, but when it comes down to it that understanding is used for our benefit.

 

[Easy7]

You can get dry humic acids, which have fulvic acids in it. I like dried nutrients for outdoors, makes it so easy. Plus if you have all this stuff in the soil, feed just minor compost and kelp teas. Nothing with any major NPK, your good to go other than a touch of guano in your tea from time to time.

The test to see when it breaks down. Put it in PH'd water, stir it up from time to time. Shake it will work best, so their is air in there. Doesn't need a bubbler. Test the total dissolved solids and keep track of readings. You will see more dissolved solids as time goes on, for the harder to break down items.

It's probably not so important to know exactly an items decomp/availability peaks. Buds do fine within their wide tolerance of nutrient availability.

Good luck, hope that helps

 

[xmobotx]

the diminishing returns thing is spot on

with healthy SFW populations, additions such as CT make little if any difference. think of it like the microbial populations you seek to multiply in your ACT brew are alive in full force in the living soil ~it's doing it's job as a habitat for the SFW

the enzymes you get from sprouting seeds or adding coconut water may be active and present in your soil mix already ~largely negating the addition of more

similarly, w/ a healthy plant foliars or drenches w/ aloe make little to no difference compared to watering a good living water-only soil mix. It's night & day when a plant has been predated upon or is suffering from some malady ~not so much when the plant is already healthy

and; fulvic acid is a component of compost/humus additions! this really emphasizes the importance of getting the humus additions right. Good, living compost/EWC/vermicompost is the cornerstone of a true organic grow & part of that is aged additions complete w/ humic and fulvic acids ~from the most plant-natural sources