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Amendment breakdown times
- Thread starter bigshrimp
- Start date
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We had one somewhere, or maybe it was on Overgrow.
The best I can remember, the fast release nutes are the guanos, dried blood and most things liquid or soluble like compost and worm castings.
Next were the meals like alfalfa, kelp and cottonsead.
Next were more solid granulars like bone meal, crab meal and shrimp compost.
Last were the minerals like rock dust, greensand and dolomite.
This is all just to the best of my recollection which isn't too good anymore at my age. ;-)
Burn1
The best I can remember, the fast release nutes are the guanos, dried blood and most things liquid or soluble like compost and worm castings.
Next were the meals like alfalfa, kelp and cottonsead.
Next were more solid granulars like bone meal, crab meal and shrimp compost.
Last were the minerals like rock dust, greensand and dolomite.
This is all just to the best of my recollection which isn't too good anymore at my age. ;-)
Burn1
I use a simple 75 day rule for organic amendments--that is, if Nitrogen is greater than 6% then on day 75, at least 75% of the matter will be decomposed (only 60% on day 28). Simple rule of thumb that works most of the time (there are a few exceptions...like kelp meal).
Source: smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/Sullivan_et_al_2010_World_Congress_Soil_Science.pdf
We lacked data on higher N analysis specialty products available for use in USDA Certified Organic
production. To gain additional data on high N specialty products, we performed a 28-d laboratory incubation
using fertilizers offered for sale to organic farmers in Portland, Oregon including: seed meals, fish
byproducts, and animal byproducts (Table 1). Most of the specialty products decomposed rapidly. Most
specialty products with greater than 6% total N released 60+% PAN in 28 d. Decomposition (%) for
specialty products with 6+% total N was similar to PAN (%). Plant-available N (%) was similar for most
fertilizers with total N percentage > 6%. Experimental data for PAN release from high N concentration
organic fertilizers (>6% total N) typically ranged from 60 to near 100% (Figure 2 and unpublished data).
Therefore, the Calculator estimate of 75% PAN for 70 d after application is on the conservative side.
See Table 1 for PAN, and 7 & 28 day decomposition rates for these amendments: seaweed extract, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, ground fish bone, meat and bone meal, soybean meal, fish/feather/alfalfa meal, bone meal, feather meal, bone meal, fish meal, corn gluten meal, granulated feather meal, fish protein digest, feather meal, & blood meal.
So...in my world, I assume most organic amendments will "have given their all" (some 75%) in around 75 days (I know, the study says 70 days...but "at least 75% on day 75" is easier for me to remember). If amendments are to be "replenished", then I add them on day 60 or so--and restart the 75 day clock.
Cheers!
Source: smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/Sullivan_et_al_2010_World_Congress_Soil_Science.pdf
We lacked data on higher N analysis specialty products available for use in USDA Certified Organic
production. To gain additional data on high N specialty products, we performed a 28-d laboratory incubation
using fertilizers offered for sale to organic farmers in Portland, Oregon including: seed meals, fish
byproducts, and animal byproducts (Table 1). Most of the specialty products decomposed rapidly. Most
specialty products with greater than 6% total N released 60+% PAN in 28 d. Decomposition (%) for
specialty products with 6+% total N was similar to PAN (%). Plant-available N (%) was similar for most
fertilizers with total N percentage > 6%. Experimental data for PAN release from high N concentration
organic fertilizers (>6% total N) typically ranged from 60 to near 100% (Figure 2 and unpublished data).
Therefore, the Calculator estimate of 75% PAN for 70 d after application is on the conservative side.
See Table 1 for PAN, and 7 & 28 day decomposition rates for these amendments: seaweed extract, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, ground fish bone, meat and bone meal, soybean meal, fish/feather/alfalfa meal, bone meal, feather meal, bone meal, fish meal, corn gluten meal, granulated feather meal, fish protein digest, feather meal, & blood meal.
So...in my world, I assume most organic amendments will "have given their all" (some 75%) in around 75 days (I know, the study says 70 days...but "at least 75% on day 75" is easier for me to remember). If amendments are to be "replenished", then I add them on day 60 or so--and restart the 75 day clock.
Cheers!
Good stuff!
Keep it Clean!
Keep it Clean!
Thanks guys, I might add--strategic usage of fertility laden teas starting around 60 days after transplant makes good sen$e. Depending on the objective (veg/flower), residual fertility (% left in soil), harvest time, etc--kinda makes the "ingredient" selection process all the more important...not just whether if this is a "flower tea" or "veg tea"--but also how much fertility is in the soil? How many days since I transplanted?...60 days? 120 days?
Who says my teas are goofy?....LOL! Each of my teas have a purpose and a reason for its existence--otherwise, why brew it?
Cheers!
Who says my teas are goofy?....LOL! Each of my teas have a purpose and a reason for its existence--otherwise, why brew it?
Cheers!
DinosaurCocks
Member
that is why i like to use Natures Nectar brand organic nutes, they have all been predigested by enzymes or something so there is no slow breakdown, the numbers on the bottle are the total amount in the bottle, available instantly, with not much leftover to slowly breakdown.
it may be cheating a bit but id rather just buy 3 bottles and feed them basically the same thing every time, and know exactly what levels they are getting at all times, one of the things that kept me from the organic world for so long was the unknown...EVERYTHING was slow release and at different rates, there was stuff you mix in before and top dressings and teas, all combining into some sort of mysterious witches brew of gross smelly decomposing gunk...it would seem to take an immense amount of knowledge and diligence to keep track of what was releasing when and what the total available numbers would look like at any given time... with my new organic liquid nutes it's much more like lucas formula on soilless...but i still retain my organic rating and all of the benefits of this style of growing...at least i am pretty sure i do...my buds are yielding more and tasting better than ever before. though im just now starting to taste the first samples of my first organic harvest, and it was really only about half organic, as it got normal lucas formula for the first 5 weeks, but my future batches will be 100% omri certified organic. yes, it may cost 200 bucks a year more, but that is a small fraction of a percentage of the total amount it will earn you during that year, and cuts the amount of work and research and problems by 75%...maybe i'm just lazy but you can't put a price on having the time and peace of mind to truly relax more often...
it may be cheating a bit but id rather just buy 3 bottles and feed them basically the same thing every time, and know exactly what levels they are getting at all times, one of the things that kept me from the organic world for so long was the unknown...EVERYTHING was slow release and at different rates, there was stuff you mix in before and top dressings and teas, all combining into some sort of mysterious witches brew of gross smelly decomposing gunk...it would seem to take an immense amount of knowledge and diligence to keep track of what was releasing when and what the total available numbers would look like at any given time... with my new organic liquid nutes it's much more like lucas formula on soilless...but i still retain my organic rating and all of the benefits of this style of growing...at least i am pretty sure i do...my buds are yielding more and tasting better than ever before. though im just now starting to taste the first samples of my first organic harvest, and it was really only about half organic, as it got normal lucas formula for the first 5 weeks, but my future batches will be 100% omri certified organic. yes, it may cost 200 bucks a year more, but that is a small fraction of a percentage of the total amount it will earn you during that year, and cuts the amount of work and research and problems by 75%...maybe i'm just lazy but you can't put a price on having the time and peace of mind to truly relax more often...
sounds a lot like throwing money away to me
i can't quite make the connection between mixing & measuring from a bottle every {or every other} watering being easier than a water only grow?
of course, I'm off-topic here & none too concerned about breakdown times ~I only want it to be less soluble additions {within a wide margin} so the micro-life is doing the heavy lifting instead of me force-feeding a plant
i can't quite make the connection between mixing & measuring from a bottle every {or every other} watering being easier than a water only grow?
of course, I'm off-topic here & none too concerned about breakdown times ~I only want it to be less soluble additions {within a wide margin} so the micro-life is doing the heavy lifting instead of me force-feeding a plant
I hear you Xmo, but it kinda depends on which nutrient one is adding--occasionally the "bottle version" is more efficient/cheaper than the dry stuff.
Let's compare kelp meal (km) with seaweed extract (se) and see what happens with the soil--
1. Nitrogen--both are 1% each.
2. C:N--almost the same, km: 26 & se: 29
3. PAN (Plant Available Nitrogen) after 28 days of application--not even close, km -6% & se 0%...kelp meal removed 6% Nitrogen from the soil--seaweed extract removed/added zero, which means kelp meal consumes nitrogen (it cooks) before it can decompose.
4. Percent decomposed after 7 days & 28 days of application--again, not even close, km 8% & 14%, se 21% & 38%. So, after 28 days, kelp meal provided the soil with only 14% of it's nutrients--whereas seaweed extract provided 38% of it's nutrients.
Hmmmm...38% vs 14%, in this particular instance, the bottled version of "kelp" is actually superior--as it over 2.7 times more efficient than dry "kelp meal".
Ohhh, where did I get the data? Table 1 in that link from my earlier post.
Cheers!
Let's compare kelp meal (km) with seaweed extract (se) and see what happens with the soil--
1. Nitrogen--both are 1% each.
2. C:N--almost the same, km: 26 & se: 29
3. PAN (Plant Available Nitrogen) after 28 days of application--not even close, km -6% & se 0%...kelp meal removed 6% Nitrogen from the soil--seaweed extract removed/added zero, which means kelp meal consumes nitrogen (it cooks) before it can decompose.
4. Percent decomposed after 7 days & 28 days of application--again, not even close, km 8% & 14%, se 21% & 38%. So, after 28 days, kelp meal provided the soil with only 14% of it's nutrients--whereas seaweed extract provided 38% of it's nutrients.
Hmmmm...38% vs 14%, in this particular instance, the bottled version of "kelp" is actually superior--as it over 2.7 times more efficient than dry "kelp meal".
Ohhh, where did I get the data? Table 1 in that link from my earlier post.
Cheers!
A soil mix containing kelp meal should be allowed time to break down before planting into it. Or if in no-till, it should be applied with equal parts compost. Many dry amendments will consume nitrogen in this way, not just kelp meal. So the point about it consuming nitrogen is moot if you prepare your soil correctly.
It's disingenuous to make some far fetched point about kelp meal's efficacy without being honest about using it and comparing it to something like seaweed extract, an inherently inferior product.
As for the 8% vs 14%, as mentioned seaweed extract is not comparable to kelp meal. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Break down time is irrelevant when what is breaking down doesn't deliver even half of the nutrient payload or amino acids, enzymes, pgr's, and trace minerals. If you prepare your soil correctly and time your garden's progression correctly, there is no need to rely on bottles to deliver what your soil is lacking. As it's been said before, you can't amend your way to a living soil.
Decomposition is only part of this equation. What is decomposing? What is being delivered to the soil? If we only measured amendments value in terms of how quickly they break down no one would use sands or rock dusts.
It's disingenuous to make some far fetched point about kelp meal's efficacy without being honest about using it and comparing it to something like seaweed extract, an inherently inferior product.
As for the 8% vs 14%, as mentioned seaweed extract is not comparable to kelp meal. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Break down time is irrelevant when what is breaking down doesn't deliver even half of the nutrient payload or amino acids, enzymes, pgr's, and trace minerals. If you prepare your soil correctly and time your garden's progression correctly, there is no need to rely on bottles to deliver what your soil is lacking. As it's been said before, you can't amend your way to a living soil.
Decomposition is only part of this equation. What is decomposing? What is being delivered to the soil? If we only measured amendments value in terms of how quickly they break down no one would use sands or rock dusts.
in the living soil/no-till paradigm; "more efficient" translates to "runs out sooner"
there are apparently many "shades" of organic & the soluble nutes shade of organic leans towards chem ideology {the so called "NPK paradigm"} I like to practice/advise towards "beyond organic" i.e. more sustainable, longer lasting, closer to nature &, more complete nutrition ~living soil/no-till {recycling} whatever term you want to use for this "beyond organic" ideal goes beyond the NPK paradigm to become a simpler method than doing all the calculations
I am starting to feel like a good starting point {in the form of a well balanced soil recipe} is fairly important & find the most long-lasting mixes are going to be the more diverse ~meaning, we're not exactly using a shit-ton of the kelp meal & w might want some seaweed extract too! {probably as kind of an inoculant starting the mix ~not "plant food"}
feed the soil not the plant
there are apparently many "shades" of organic & the soluble nutes shade of organic leans towards chem ideology {the so called "NPK paradigm"} I like to practice/advise towards "beyond organic" i.e. more sustainable, longer lasting, closer to nature &, more complete nutrition ~living soil/no-till {recycling} whatever term you want to use for this "beyond organic" ideal goes beyond the NPK paradigm to become a simpler method than doing all the calculations
I am starting to feel like a good starting point {in the form of a well balanced soil recipe} is fairly important & find the most long-lasting mixes are going to be the more diverse ~meaning, we're not exactly using a shit-ton of the kelp meal & w might want some seaweed extract too! {probably as kind of an inoculant starting the mix ~not "plant food"}
feed the soil not the plant
Rasp,
First--this thread is about "amendment breakdown times"--not about "living soils" or "no-till" practices. Those ideas have different strategies, different approaches, and different rules. Majority of us are "indoor gardeners" that grow short crops and interested in seeing an immediate response to our efforts. In other words--add something on Monday and we better see results by Friday. Unlike you (ROLS/no-till/recycle), waiting weeks/months to wait for kelp meal to decompose/breakdown before any benefits can be realized is a privilege that most of us do not have. Using something of comparable quality that works 2.7 times faster...is of interest to me.
My preference of seaweed extract is "cold processed" (dried Ascophyllum nodosum seaweed treated under high pressure and cold water--no chemicals, no heat), which retains all the goodness found in seaweed...but in a bottle. Yep, all the micro-nutes, plant growth compounds, carbs, protein, vitamins and amino acids are all there--in liquid form, with the OMRI and Organic label.
Knowing when each micronute, carb, vitamin, amino acid, plant growth compound, etc will actually become "Plant Available" would be excellent information--if it were only available for kelp products. Do you have data on the time/duration for seaweed active ingredient's to become Plant Available? I don't. So, until we have ALL that data, IMHO, the next best comparison/yardstick available to us is using the "decomposition rates" of certain amendments. Of course this assumes: the faster a product decomposes, the sooner it can become "Plant Available". It would be silly to conclude the opposite: the slower a product decomposes, the faster it becomes "Plant Available"....real silly!
Second--you mentioned there are "many dry amendments will consume Nitrogen in this way" (like kelp meal). I agree, things like green manure, sawdust and a few odd ball meals do consume Plant Available Nitrogen that way, but not aware of many others. Please enlighten us on the other "many dry amendments" that consume Plant Available Nitrogen "in this way" (-6% after 28 days of application).
Third--there is plenty of science to support the benefits of using seaweed extracts as a foliar spray and soil conditioner...but I did not read anything to support your claim that seaweed extracts "are inherently inferior products". Is that opinion--or fact? Please publish/link to the evidence/science to support your claim that kelp meal is "inherently" superior over extracts.
Seems that your preference is "kelp meal"...and mine is "seaweed extract"--fine! I guess we can both agree on the benefits of kelp--but we disagree on the "form" (dry vs liquid). A person I agree with 80%, is not my 20% enemy...at least in my world.
Cheers man!
BTW--
The term "efficiency" depends on one's "objective". For containerized growing, one objective is not leave behind any unused nutes/ferts in the soil at harvest. The goal is to provide just what the plant needs so it can do it's best (quality/yield), no more--no less. For sustainable farming, one objective is to feed what the soil requires/needs (for this year and next year)...after taking into account the residual levels of nutes/ferts that remain in the soil after harvest/prior to planting. Containerized growers prefer little to zero residual (no exce$$)...whereas sustainable farming (rols/no-till) desires/expects/plans to have residual amounts of nutes/ferts in their soil (thereby reducing future nute/fert application amounts). Both growers have the same goal--to grow the best plant at a reasonable cost, but have different nute/fert objectives (zero residual vs planned residual). Neither are wrong.
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Now we are in the "weeds". How is it processed/extracted? The product's quality is greatly influenced by the extraction process--and when it comes to seaweed extraction methods, we have three basic choices:
1. Chemical hydrolysis method (alkaline/potassium hydroxide)--most popular and worst option. The strong alkali and high temperature can destroy/degrade the nutrients in seaweed
2. Physical extraction method (high-pressure and cold process)--a great option, but more expensive to produce than the chemical method. The seaweed cell walls are broken down by using high-pressure and cold process (water) without significant damage or degradation of seaweeds active ingredients.
3. Biological fermentation method (enzyme degradation)--the best option and the most expensive to produce. The fermentation method is using various kinds of enzymes produced by microorganisms in the metabolic process which use seaweeds as nutrients. It degrades macromolecule materials in seaweeds into micromolecule and water-soluble materials. Without strong alkali and high temperature of chemical method and high pressure and low temperature of physical method, it maximizes the retention of bioactive and nutritious substances in seaweed.
Why did I personally select the "physical extraction" method (cold process) over the superior "fermentation method"? Money...if it costs 525% more, then will I receive 525% worth of benefits? I think not. Last week, I paid $40 for 2.5 gallons of "cold water processed" Seaweed Extract--capable of making 640 gallons (15ml/gallon). The only "fermentation method" product I found was $50 for 1/2 gallon (equiv to $250 for 2.5 gallons). $210 difference...or 5.25 times more.
Now, to answer your question, I think Neptune uses the alkaline method (chemical hydrolysis)...and if true, it would not be my choice.
Cheers!
Eclipse, I didn't bother to continue that discussion because after reading some of your other posts I realized you don't actually want to have a discussion on things. Rather, you want to lecture and pontificate to others how your way is the best way and you have years and years of cash cropping to support that. Sorry, I've seen this movie before and it's pretty boring.
Also, I thought that was a rhetorical question, Eclipse. I figured someone as experienced as you claim to be would know full well that kelp meal > seaweed extract. If for no other reason than the latter is a derivative of the former.
Riddle me this... what's better for you, eating an orange or drinking orange juice?
Both have their benefits but one is empirically better than the other.
You grow hydroponically in a soilless medium. Why you post in the organic soil forum is beyond me. I don't need to force feed my plants liquid nutes or pay grow stores for water.
You can use whatever you like, Eclipse. This is not a personal battle over how you grow your plants as much as you would like to make it about you.
I couldn't care less how you grow your plants. I just care that information is presented accurately and honestly to others who may not know. This site is a resource, not a soap box.
Also, I thought that was a rhetorical question, Eclipse. I figured someone as experienced as you claim to be would know full well that kelp meal > seaweed extract. If for no other reason than the latter is a derivative of the former.
Riddle me this... what's better for you, eating an orange or drinking orange juice?
Both have their benefits but one is empirically better than the other.
You grow hydroponically in a soilless medium. Why you post in the organic soil forum is beyond me. I don't need to force feed my plants liquid nutes or pay grow stores for water.
You can use whatever you like, Eclipse. This is not a personal battle over how you grow your plants as much as you would like to make it about you.
I couldn't care less how you grow your plants. I just care that information is presented accurately and honestly to others who may not know. This site is a resource, not a soap box.
So no facts or evidence--pure conjecture. Got it!
For me, its all about holding people's feet to the fire...when they make silly baseless claims.
IMHO, the soap box star is the one that generates drama for drama sake...probably, because they can not back up their beliefs with facts.
Just because you say that I "lecture and pontificate to others how your way is the best way and you have years and years of cash cropping to support that"...does not make it true or factually correct. Care to share the post where I allegedly made such a claim; I am not aware of any.
I think you are confusing me with someone else.
Cheers man!
BTW...I believe the order of events were--you neg rep me in a different thread, I made a post in this thread, you trolled here to challenge it, I replied asking you for further info...and then--we have this little give and take on two different threads. Funny that you say this site is not "soap box". LOL...too fuuny! Neg rep away dude...guess that's all you have, facts certainly are not on your side when it comes to efficiencies of seaweed extract. Also, I grow 95% organic in a custom "soil mix"--not hydro, guess you are confusing me with someone else!
For me, its all about holding people's feet to the fire...when they make silly baseless claims.
IMHO, the soap box star is the one that generates drama for drama sake...probably, because they can not back up their beliefs with facts.
Just because you say that I "lecture and pontificate to others how your way is the best way and you have years and years of cash cropping to support that"...does not make it true or factually correct. Care to share the post where I allegedly made such a claim; I am not aware of any.
I think you are confusing me with someone else.
Cheers man!
BTW...I believe the order of events were--you neg rep me in a different thread, I made a post in this thread, you trolled here to challenge it, I replied asking you for further info...and then--we have this little give and take on two different threads. Funny that you say this site is not "soap box". LOL...too fuuny! Neg rep away dude...guess that's all you have, facts certainly are not on your side when it comes to efficiencies of seaweed extract. Also, I grow 95% organic in a custom "soil mix"--not hydro, guess you are confusing me with someone else!
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It's almost sad how clueless you are but your arrogance actually makes it comical.
Your blind devotion to studies and citations borders on scientism. You won't believe me but you will believe the data I provide, at which point you will say "oh, Rasp was right." I'm cutting out the middle man and saving us both time. Why would I make this up? More importantly, you use seaweed so you know full well the benefits of kelp meal or else you wouldn't use a liquid extract of it.
So rather than acknowledge you use it because you need soluble nutrients immediately available for you as a hydro grower you want to act as if what I said isn't true and you're using the best stuff. You're upset I said you use an inferior product. How lame. Facts are facts regardless of how you emotional you want to get over them. That's part of their charm.
I actually can provide scientific data to support my claim but I'm enjoying dragging it out and watching you dodge my questions like you did with the orange vs orange juice. See, sometimes there is a simpler explanation that is just as viable as something more complex. I am trying to break it down for you in simple terms.
Kelp meal has numerous empirical benefits over liquid seaweed extract in soil. Something you hydro growers don't understand which is certainly to be expected. Remember, you posted in the organic soil forum. Or have you forgotten where you are? They say the mind is the first thing to go.
I just mentioned the fact one is better than the other and you pitched a hissy fit demanding my time be devoted to do your homework for you and then you started posting in other threads trolling me.
Remember, you did something similar to MM asking for data and he eventually got around to it and now you're singing his praises. Be careful now. Wouldn't want you to start rating my posts as helpful.
Does liquid extract lead to humus creation? Does it improve soil tilth? Does it improve soil microbiology? Does it contain every last drop of plant compounds, amino acids, enzymes, carbohydrates, and nutrients as kelp meal?
From ALS
You're a cash cropper looking for big yields and bottled nutes to get you there. You force feed the plant water soluble nutes of varying quality and consistency, I feed the soil. Two totally different trips.
Your consistent failure to realize the crucial distinction between the two items is your problem, not mine.
Your blind devotion to studies and citations borders on scientism. You won't believe me but you will believe the data I provide, at which point you will say "oh, Rasp was right." I'm cutting out the middle man and saving us both time. Why would I make this up? More importantly, you use seaweed so you know full well the benefits of kelp meal or else you wouldn't use a liquid extract of it.
So rather than acknowledge you use it because you need soluble nutrients immediately available for you as a hydro grower you want to act as if what I said isn't true and you're using the best stuff. You're upset I said you use an inferior product. How lame. Facts are facts regardless of how you emotional you want to get over them. That's part of their charm.
I actually can provide scientific data to support my claim but I'm enjoying dragging it out and watching you dodge my questions like you did with the orange vs orange juice. See, sometimes there is a simpler explanation that is just as viable as something more complex. I am trying to break it down for you in simple terms.
Kelp meal has numerous empirical benefits over liquid seaweed extract in soil. Something you hydro growers don't understand which is certainly to be expected. Remember, you posted in the organic soil forum. Or have you forgotten where you are? They say the mind is the first thing to go.
I just mentioned the fact one is better than the other and you pitched a hissy fit demanding my time be devoted to do your homework for you and then you started posting in other threads trolling me.
Remember, you did something similar to MM asking for data and he eventually got around to it and now you're singing his praises. Be careful now. Wouldn't want you to start rating my posts as helpful.
Does liquid extract lead to humus creation? Does it improve soil tilth? Does it improve soil microbiology? Does it contain every last drop of plant compounds, amino acids, enzymes, carbohydrates, and nutrients as kelp meal?
From ALS
I readily acknowledge the benefits of both meals and extracts for their own specific purposes. In soil extracts do not compare to kelp meal. That you continue to deny this fact shows how little you actually know about soil.
You're a cash cropper looking for big yields and bottled nutes to get you there. You force feed the plant water soluble nutes of varying quality and consistency, I feed the soil. Two totally different trips.
Your consistent failure to realize the crucial distinction between the two items is your problem, not mine.
