a common misconception in solvent extracting is the plant waxes contain the terpenes and flavanoids.
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A Warning regarding Dabs from Dale Gieringer
- Thread starter Thomas Paine
- Start date
Reading your (plural...last several pages), I agree w/ Sam....and preference is dry sift kief. The fact that any amount of butane is quite unappealing and as a health standpoint....nasty and long term....unsafe.
And too, I like to know WHERE my product comes from and how it was processed. The hype isn't enough to get me interested. Probably it's the reason a lot of us grow our own....we KNOW what/how it was grown from seed to harvest.
At least everclear is distilled, using drops sublingually are made of grain vs. a petroleum product being smoked or ingested.
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The waxes may not be the source of cannabinoids and terpenes but they do get trapped in the wax during some extractions.
-SamS
-SamS
wouldn't flavonoids also be part of the differential between dry sift and other solvent extractions? While arguable taste and smell might not have medicinal properties they become arguable tenants from a connoisseur
I ask because of the existence of flavonoids in the waxes of other plants
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11140533
C-methyl-flavonoids from the leaf waxes of some Myrtaceae.
AbstractThe thin waxy coatings on leaves of nine species of Callistemon, two of Melaleuca and one species of Metrosideros, have been studied for the occurrence of leaf surface flavonoids. The Callistemon species and Metrosideros robusta exhibit only C-methylated flavonoids, while O-methyl flavonoids were detected in Melaleuca huegelii. The new natural C-methyl flavonol, 5,7-dihydroxy-3,8,4'-trimethoxy-6-C-methylflavone, was isolated from Metrosideros robusta. The leaf wax of Callistemon coccineus contains the novel C-methylflavonoid, 5,4'-dihydroxy-8-C-methyl-7-methoxy flavanone.
there were also references of them being water (flavonoids) soluble which means perhaps they are being separated from the wax by selective solvents like BHO which doesn't seem to grab water solubles?
IMO Terpenes play a huge role in the effect. I recently saw someone with a PHD, lecture on the subject. Cutting edge research that was done in Europe. They tested different strains from various coffee shops and found that the subtle difference in strains terp levels, had a drastic impact on the strains effect.
For example I can have a kush and a diesel that will test nearly the same for thc levels %19 thc, but the effect is drastically different. The terpenes play a big role.
Check out anaylical360 and look at the test results. Click on "thc levels" so that they are orientated from highest to lowest (deadhead og will be at the top)
Now scroll through the results and pay attention to the strains and levels, youll see strains like blue dream with results nearly identical to chem valley kush, Or Tahoe OG almost the same levels at Grand Daddy Purp. The effect is obviously different.
also Taxol is terpene derived and is being researched for its cancer fighting properties..definitely medicine in the terps.
I am interested in flavonoids but have never tried to see if they influence the high or medical properties.
-SamS
-SamS
I would like to drop 2 cents here..
In my opinions terpenes define the direction of the high , THC amplifies it into that direction
Terpenes and understanding of them will be the main thing breeders will be focusing on the next 50 years.
But thats just my humble opinion.
Flavour is everything.
In my opinions terpenes define the direction of the high , THC amplifies it into that direction
Terpenes and understanding of them will be the main thing breeders will be focusing on the next 50 years.
But thats just my humble opinion.
Flavour is everything.
I wonder if flavonoids get similar reactions to aromatherapy? Not much clinical information to back its claims yet many patients report on its effectiveness.
Our sense of smell and taste are tied to memories more so than other senses so perhaps certain smells and tastes evoke positive memories (scent based memories) in people and subconsciously this resonates with the person indeed making them feel better than without.
I just dabbed for the first time the other day. Guy made shatter out of Blue Dream.
I have asthma/lung issues, and blueberry strains close my lungs up naturally, making it hard to breathe.
This Blue Dream shatter almost closed my lungs up completely after 1 big rip off that special pipe he used. Titanium thingy with like 8 holes around the sides.
I went outside to get fresh air and didnt want another hit. Not because it was soooo potent I couldnt hang. But because I didnt want to pass out from not getting the oxygen I need. This happens with hashish too. But shatter is even harder on my lungs.
Are we sure their talking about passing out from effect? Not just loosing wind and mistaking it for effect?
I have asthma/lung issues, and blueberry strains close my lungs up naturally, making it hard to breathe.
This Blue Dream shatter almost closed my lungs up completely after 1 big rip off that special pipe he used. Titanium thingy with like 8 holes around the sides.
I went outside to get fresh air and didnt want another hit. Not because it was soooo potent I couldnt hang. But because I didnt want to pass out from not getting the oxygen I need. This happens with hashish too. But shatter is even harder on my lungs.
Are we sure their talking about passing out from effect? Not just loosing wind and mistaking it for effect?
No.
THC to CBD/CBN's define the direction of the high/stone/effect. Breeders will be focusing on these over the next....well... infinity.
Terpenes define the smell of the flowers.
Extracting terpenes from flowers/plants is how they make cologne and perfume.
im getting the feeling you have no idea what your talking about... I say this because you just took you first dab and I attended a lecture given by someone with a PHD who does know about terpenes.please read my post above, go to analytical 360, and tell me that terps have no effect.
I saw the lecture given by a PHD, the new research is showing terps play a huge role.
I even talked to some guys doing super and sub critical c02 extracting at the lecture. Sound Co2 from Washington. They also reaffirmed that terps have a noticable effect on the "high" when concentrating them. Apparently with their methods the co2 can settle and they will end up with small pools of terpenes on the top. When a dab was dipped into the "terp pool" and then consumed "there was a noticable effect on the high" according to them..
You need winterized oil, it is much easier on the lungs, that what most of my patients prefer.
Also your dab can be a fraction of the size of a normal hit, sounds like your buddy gave you a dab that was too big, which is what the OP was going after. Dabs that are tooo big.
Yep, "winterizing" is also used in the perfume industry and what do ya know it applies greatly to oil concentrates as well.
Lets all let the industry evolve and grow, if you dont like dabs dont take them.
Another option is making it yourself. Outdoors in a well ventilated area of course. Purge the oil correctly, and you win every time. There's more than enough info just in the Concentrates forum here to teach a newbie how to make quality oil.
It is SAID to have effect....NO proof at all. Only speculation. Terpenes are for aroma.
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7tmoObBS0DoAX1NXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOXBoMDliBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDIyNl8x/SIG=130tvlrh5/EXP=1387309608/**http%3a//berkeleypatientscare.com/2010/10/08/terpenes-terpenoids-and-cannabis/
Until there is proof that certain smells will get you a different effect, than Im stickin to my story about terpenes.
Ive been growing and studying for 25 years.
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7tmoObBS0DoAX1NXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOXBoMDliBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDIyNl8x/SIG=130tvlrh5/EXP=1387309608/**http%3a//berkeleypatientscare.com/2010/10/08/terpenes-terpenoids-and-cannabis/
Until there is proof that certain smells will get you a different effect, than Im stickin to my story about terpenes.
Ive been growing and studying for 25 years.
Most Western bred Cannabis has little or no CBD, CBN is just old degraded THC, the plant does not produce CBN, you do not find it in fresh buds anyway, store dry buds for 6 months at room temp and you will find CBN.
Many breeders have made CBD varieties now, no big thing.
Terpenes will be the focus, 130+ to understand, not so easy like Cannabinoids.
-SamS
Many breeders have made CBD varieties now, no big thing.
Terpenes will be the focus, 130+ to understand, not so easy like Cannabinoids.
-SamS
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Where did you get all your wisdom about terpenes?
Have you ever smoked 100% pure THC?
Then added selected terpenes?
Until you do you need to not have an opinion about something you have zero understanding about.
I can assure you the different 130 terpenes have different effects with THC.
I suggest you find out...
Like I did more then a decade ago.
You can find my posts about my terpene work, just look.
I tried 100% pure THC, then spiked it with a single terpene at a time, the THC was certainly modified, making it stronger, more up, clear, cerebral, psychedelic. Or more narcotic, physical, couch lock. All dependent on the terpene added.
You are the one speculating that terpenes do not modify the THC effects, with no work on your part. to see if they do or don't.
Terpenes do change the effects of THC, try them with THC and you will see....
-SamS
Have you ever smoked 100% pure THC?
Then added selected terpenes?
Until you do you need to not have an opinion about something you have zero understanding about.
I can assure you the different 130 terpenes have different effects with THC.
I suggest you find out...
Like I did more then a decade ago.
You can find my posts about my terpene work, just look.
I tried 100% pure THC, then spiked it with a single terpene at a time, the THC was certainly modified, making it stronger, more up, clear, cerebral, psychedelic. Or more narcotic, physical, couch lock. All dependent on the terpene added.
You are the one speculating that terpenes do not modify the THC effects, with no work on your part. to see if they do or don't.
Terpenes do change the effects of THC, try them with THC and you will see....
-SamS
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one.sixoneeight
Member
Perhaps this article will shed a little.
http://cannabishealthnewsmagazine.com/news/1238/importance-of-terpenes/
Importance of Terpenes
By Nathan Spaulding
Terpenes are volatile compounds produced by many plants, as well as some insects. Plants that produce terpenes often possess smells and flavors we find pleasing and are known as aromatic herbs. These aromatic plants have been used by cultures around the world, not only for perfumery and cooking, but also as medicine. The distinctive flavor and smell of each aromatic plant is caused by its unique blend of terpenes. 120 distinct terpenes are produced by the genus Cannabis, with the relative concentrations of the individual terpenes varying greatly among the 700 distinct strains currently in cultivation. Aside from taste and smell differences between varieties, this helps contribute to the broad diversity of potential medical applications of Cannabis. Laboratory experiments have shown that the full range of psychoactive and medical effects of Cannabis resin cannot be re-created simply with the use of pure cannabinoid type drugs like THC (tetrahydrocannabinol). Marinol and Dronabinol, two drugs containing synthetic THC that have demonstrated limited medical benefits when compared with the use of Cannabis material containing the full range of cannabinoids and terpenes. These observations indicate that in addition to the psychoactive properties present in Cannabis resin, secondary components including terpenes are either psychoactive themselves, or are able to modulate or potentiate the affect of the cannabinoids when ingested in combination. GW Pharmaceuticals has invested extensive research into Cannabis based medicines, concluding that terpenes played a significant role in the effectiveness of the medication. GW is now manufacturing the most widely used medical marijuana product in the world an oral spray called Sativex, which contains a standardized mixture of Cannabis terpenes in addition to a mix of THC and CBD (Canabidiol).
From a chemical standpoint, terpenes are a large and varied class of hydrocarbons that make up a majority of plant resins and saps. The name “terpene” comes from turpentine, a terpene-based solvent distilled from pinesap. Essential oils, composed primarily of terpenes, have a long history of topical and internal medicinal use. Cannabinoids like THC are chemically classified as terpenoids, meaning they are derived from terpenes themselves. This explains the common practice among marijuana users of judging the quality of dried cannabis or hashish based largely on the quality and intensity of the smell. In high-THC cultivars, because the THC is made from terpenes, their content is usually correlated with psycho activity.
The resinous trichromes of the cannabis plant contain both the cannabinoids as well as the terpenes, which are constantly being replaced as they evaporate from the resin. The resin of high THC cannabis contains approximately 20 percent terpenes, and 50 percent cannabinoids by weight. The essential oil has traditionally been used as a treatment for skin conditions such as eczema or psoriasis, as a topical antibiotic agent, and to increase circulation. In addition to these topical uses, it is now known that terpenes present in Cannabis do possess neurological effects, altering the production of the neurotransmitters seratonin and dopamine, as well as acting as type 2 cannabinoid receptor agonists. Another significant action when used in combination with cannabinoids is their ability to alter the permeability of both cell membranes and the blood/brain barrier, causing THC and other active cannabinoids to have a faster onset and more thorough absorption. Myrcene and several other terpenes are known to act as mixed agonist/antagonists of cannabinoid receptors, modulating the effects of THC in a similar fashion to CBD (cannabidiol).
THE MAJOR TERPENES OF CANNABIS RESIN AND THEIR EFFECTS
BORNEOL – BORNEOL IS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF CANNABIS RESIN THAT CAN ALSO BE FOUND IN CINNAMON AND WORMWOOD (ARTEMESIA SPP). IN CHINESE MEDICINE HERBS CONTAINING BORNEOL ARE RECOMMENDED FOR FATIGUE AND OVERSTRESS. BORNEAL IS MENTIONED TO BE A CALMING SEDATIVE.
CORRYPHYLLENE – CORRYPHYLLENE IS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF CANNABIS RESIN THAT CAN ALSO BE FOUND IN BLACK PEPPER AND CLOVES. IT IS A FAIRLY WEAK AGONIST OF THE TYPE 2 CANNABINOID RECEPTORS (CB2). AS A CONSTITUENT OF A SALVE OR LOTION CORPHYLLENE IS AN EFFECTIVE ANTI- INFLAMMATORY AND ANALGESIC. DRUG DOGS ARE TRAINED TO SPECIFICALLY SNIFF OUT CORPHYLLENE EPOXIDE, A SIMILAR COMPOUND PRODUCED ONLY BY CANNABIS.
CINEOLE/EUCALYPTOL – CINEOLE/EUCALYPTOL CONTENT IS QUITE VARIABLE ACROSS VARIETIES OF CANNABIS, BUT IS OFTEN A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THE ESSENTIAL OIL. IT IS ALSO FOUND IN ROSEMARY AND EUCALYPTUS AND IS USED TO INCREASE CIRCULATION, AND REDUCE PAIN AND SWELLING WHEN APPLIED TOPICALLY. IT READILY CROSSES THE BLOOD/BRAIN BARRIER, POSSIBLY HELPING CANNABINOIDS TO CROSS MORE READILY AS WELL. THE EFFECTS OF CINEOLE, WHEN COMBINED WITH ORAL OR SMOKED CANNABIS, ARE REPORTED AS BEING VERY UPLIFTING, NOTICEABLY INCREASING MENTAL AND PHYSICAL ENERGY. THIS TERPENE, OR OTHERS LIKE IT, MAY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE REPORTED DIFFERENCE IN EFFECT BETWEEN INDICA AND SATIVA STRAINS WITH A SIMILAR CANNABINOID PROFILE.
LIMONENE – FOUND IN CANNABIS RESIN AS WELL AS TROPICAL FRUIT RINDS, LIMONENE IS AN ANTI-BACTERIAL, ANTI FUNGAL AND ANTI CANCER AGENT. CURRENTLY UNDERGOING TRIALS FOR USE AS AN ANTI DEPRESSANT, IT IS ALSO KNOWN TO INCREASE THE ABSORPTION OF OTHER TERPENES BY MAKING CELL MEMBRANES MORE PERMEABLE. THE PRESENCE OF THIS ANTI FUNGAL AGENT MAY BE HELPFUL IN PROTECTING AGAINST ASPERGILLUS INFECTION IN THOSE WITH COMPROMISED IMMUNITY WHEN USING SPOILED OR POORLY CURED MARIJUANA. LIMONENE IS CURRENTLY IN TRIALS TO STUDY ITS ABILITY TO PREVENT BREAST CANCER FORMATION.
DELTA-3-CARENE – A COMPONENT OF CANNABIS, ROSEMARY, PINE, AND CEDAR RESIN. AROMATHERAPY OILS THAT CONTAIN HIGH LEVELS OF DELTA3CARENE ARE USED TO DRY EXCESS FLUIDS FROM THE EYES, NOSE, OR MOUTH. IT IS THOUGHT TO BE AT LEAST PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DRY MOUTH AND EYE PROBLEMS THAT ARE COMMON SIDE EFFECTS OF THE USE OF CANNABIS.
LINALOOL – THIS MAJOR COMPONENT OF CANNABIS AND LAVENDER OILS IS BELIEVED TO POSSESS ANTI ANXIETY AND SEDATIVE PROPERTIES. STRAINS THAT ARE HIGH IN LINALOOL AND SIMILAR COMPOUNDS MAY BE PARTICULARLY BENEFICIAL FOR PATIENTS WHO EXPERIENCE INSOMNIA WHEN CONSUMING CANNABIS.
MYRCENE – SIGNIFICANT CONCENTRATIONS OF MYRCENE ARE PRESENT IN CANNABIS RESIN. IT IS ALSO FOUND IN MANGO, HOPS, LEMON GRASS, EAST INDIAN BAY TREE, AND VERBENA. BECAUSE OF ITS APPEALING FRAGRANCE, MYRCENE IS USED IN THE PERFUME INDUSTRY. IT HAS A SIMILAR MODULATING EFFECT ON THE BINDING OF CANNABINOID AGONIST DRUGS AS CANNABIDIOL, POSSIBLY REDUCING EFFECTS OF CANNABIS RESIN THAT ARE FOUND TO BE UNPLEASANT FOR SOME MEDICAL USERS. IT HAS ANTI MICROBIAL, ANTI SEPTIC, ANALGESIC, ANTI OXIDANT, ANTI CARCINOGEN AND ANTI-INFLAMMATORY PROPERTIES. IT HAS SHOWN SOME PROMISE WHEN USED AS AN ANTI DEPRESSANT, OR AS AN ADDITIVE TO OTHER ANTI DEPRESSANT DRUGS AND IS ALSO USED IN MASSAGE THERAPY AS A MUSCLE RELAXER.
TERPINEOL – MINOR COMPONENT OF CANNABIS RESIN, USED EXTENSIVELY IN THE PERFUME INDUSTRY. INTERESTINGLY THIS TERPENE DECREASES MOTILITY OF LAB RATS BY 45 PERCENT, THIS OBSERVATION COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT THIS IS A TERPENE PRODUCED PRIMARILY IN CANNABIS INDICA PLANTS INDICATES TERPINEOL COULD PLAY A ROLE IN DECREASED MOTILITY SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS “COUCH LOCK”.
To get the greatest possible benefits from medical Cannabis products, its important to be aware of the common methods being used to produce this medication, and how this will affect the terpene content of the finished product. When Cannabis is exposed to heat the volatile terpenes quickly evaporate, causing the majority of hash oils currently produced for medication to be nearly devoid of terpenes. When purchasing hash oil products it is important to ask if the terpenes have been retained during processing. Ask your dispensary staff if they are aware of the manufacturing processes used in their products, and the properties of the finished medicines.
Cannabis-based salves or lotions have become a popular treatment for skin conditions, and terpenes play a major role in the effectiveness of these at treating a range of skin problems. When purchasing these types of products you should talk to your dispensary about the terpene content of the different products available as well as the cannabinoid content. When topically applied, cannabis terpenes are very effective for treating a range of skin problems. If you are a medical marijuana user who prefers to smoke or vaporize cannabis, you can increase the effect of the terpenes in you’re bud by slowly breaking it up and inhaling the aromas prior to smoking. Some concentrates that have become popular retain very little of the original terpenes. This is true of most hash oils that are extracted or dried with heat, as well as bubble hash that have lost much of the original terpenes to the water used in processing. The most concentrated terpenes are found in freshly dried buds, as well as high quality dry sift hash or kief.
It is now understood that the psychoactive and medicinal effects of the cannabis plant can’t be explained by THC and other cannabinoids alone. In order to develop a more thorough understanding of the range of medical conditions alleviated with Cannabis use, terpenes, flavonoids and alkaloids that are produced by different strains of cannabis will need to be studied to determine how they interact with cannabinoids to produce the unique healing properties of organic Cannabis resin. The importance of terpenes in medicinal cannabis is becoming more evident as the research progresses. They are responsible for many of the subtle differences between strains and in how they perform medically. As patients become more aware of the complexities of the various compounds in cannabis, they will become more discerning when choosing their medicines. Hopefully, as patients become more aware of the full potential of Cannabis preparations, it will help increase the quality of available medications, and the quality of information. Educated patients can be the driving force for further research into the almost limitless potential for the medical uses of this amazing plant.
References:
www.cannabishealthnewsmagazine.com/medical/963/terpenes
