Operation RAD (Root Aphid Death)

[sahdgrower]

Operation RAD Root Aphid Death


Hello all, this is my first journal and really my first real grow in a very long time. I was so pleased to have the opportunity to grow indoors legally after so many years of smoking in secrecy. Anyway I bought my clones and setup my grow room but my clones never really took off. I have been struggling as to why fighting with various nute deficiencies PH lockout etc. Until I saw them. The Root Aphids on the roots of my plants. It explains all the problems I have been having as well. So rather than give up and scrap the room I decided to try and fight them and post here a very detailed journal of my quest to kill off the aphid scum. Here’s my journey,
Setup:
600w Gavita Pro SE
4’ 6-bulb Hydrofarm T5 HO
DIY Ebb and Flow system

DIY RDWC based on Snypes design.


4 buckets and one controller approximately 20 gallons run by 400gph inline water pump and 700lph air pump connected to 4” airstones in each bucket except controller.


Air temp: 62F nighttime low to 78F daytime high. Air circulated by oscillating fan and exhausted through 250cfm 6” booster fan.
Water temps: 60-73F however more effort will be put to controlling this in a more specific range 65-70F.
Nutrients: Using General Hydro FloraGrow and FloraMicro at approximately half strength (350-450ppm on 500 scale). Using tap water which I decant into an open container and allow 24 hours before putting in system, tap Ph range is 8.5-9 and 150ppm.
PH Range: Have steadily maintained PH between 5.8-6.3
Strains: 2 Blackberry Kush clones acquired 11-1-13, 4 Blackberry Kush, 2 Platinum Cookies and 2 Vortex clones acquired 11-23-13. 2 GDP were also acquired to 11-1-13 but were removed due to absolute lack of vigor which I believe is due to the Root Aphids that came along with the cuttings.
Root Aphids discovered 12-4-13 and I took 3 days of research before formulating my plan.
Goals: Complete control of root aphids through organic methods.
Methods: I will try a threefold attack plan. Hot water dunk, neem oil both foliar spray and root dunk, and a homemade version of SNS 203.

Tools: Neem Oil 100%, Clove Oil, Rosemary Oil, Soap, empty container, measuring devices, submersible thermometer, a notebook and a pipe full!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=50206&pictureid=1173703

 

[sahdgrower]

Preliminary Findings

Preliminary Findings

Method 1: Hot Water Dunk.



I filled a pyrex 8 cup measuring cup with hot tap water.

It came out approximately 117F so I microwaved it a minute or two to bring the temp up to 120F which I measured with a common food thermometer I bought at Bed Bath for $10 (minus coupon discount). I did nothing to maintain the temp as I used the water but did monitor it continuosly with my meter.



I pulled my most infected plant out of the DWC and carefully plucked individual RA’s using the tip of my thermometer probe and then after observing to make sure I did not harm them in the harvesting process and that they were indeed alive and moving I dumped em into the hot water. RA died in less than 30 seconds in water over 115F repeatedly. Between 112-115 death between 1-2 minutes and under 112 death was not guaranteed in my tests. I tested approximately 15 individual RA as the temp in my water dropped. Then got new hot water and tried again to confirm.


After confirming that hot water alone would indeed kill the RA and finding that 120 was a good temp to ensure RA death I now needed to test my plants to see if it would harm them. So I tested on my Vortex #1.


Dunked in 120F water for 2 minutes then immediately dunked in 68F half strength nutrient solution and set back in place for observation. The water dropped from 120F to 110F at the end of the 2 minute dunk. After several hours no ill effects were observed.



Emboldened I now moved on to testing 2 of my better (still pitiful I know) clones BBK #5 and #6.


BBK# 5 received same treatment as VX#1 and I observed several dead floaters after treatment. On BBK#6 I increased water temp to 125F which dropped to 112F after the 2 minute dunk. I did not notice any dead floaters on BBK#6 however these clones are small and not visibly covered with RA. On BBK#1 and #2 RA can easily be observed on roots.

After confirming the survival of BBK#5 and #6 I will treat BBK#2. After I confirm her survival I will treat BBK#1.

 

[sahdgrower]

SG 203

SG 203

Method 2: SG’s DIY SNS 203. So in my research I came across SNS 203 for RA treatment but its pretty expensive and I looked at the MSDS sheet for the product and noted that it’s ingredients were few and easily acquired for me. So I used their formula to calculate my mix. I used
SG203 formula
15ML Clove oil
5ML Rosemary oil
5ML Dr. Bronner’s Baby Soap (I have seen mentioned not to use this although I am not sure why)

32oz. RO water


I didn’t use the exact formula they have, the proportions of clove and rosermary oil are about the same but I used the soap in place of Lauric acid and Polyglyceryl Oleate. The Dr. Bronner’s has coconut oil in it which is a natural source of lauric acid but Ihave no idea how much is in there and the polyglyceryl is an emulsifier which is why I just used soap (all ingredients I bought at whole foods and cost less than $20 and could be found for cheaper with a small amount of effort).
At full strength a dab killed a RA in seconds. Diluted 3oz/gallon


RA death was repeatedly observed in 3-5 minutes
Testing plant tolerance to SG203:
First tested VX#2 by dunking completely in diluted (3oz. per gallon) SG203 for 1 minute with slight swishing motion to ensure complete penetration into hydroton.


Removed from solution rinsed with tap water.


(this is actually a pic of BBK#1 in my cleaning station) Then dunked in half strength nutrient solution. Returned to system for observation. After several hours no ill effects observed.
Moved on to test BBK#3 and #4 with my SG203. I dunked them each for 2 minutes. On #3 I did not rinse roots afterwards and on #4 I rinsed and dunked as with VX#2. Left overnight (daytime for them) and no observable damage after 12 hours.
Will wait one more day then proceed to treat larger plants BBK #1 and #2.

 

[sahdgrower]

Open to all opinions, criticisms, suggestions etc. Prefer you have some actual hands on experience. Plenty of hear say to be found. I know my plants are pitiful looking. I was going to kill them then I figured why not experiment when I have nothing to lose. If I don't succeed impressively I will nuke the room and start from seed. No more foreign cuttings in my room!

 

[ozzieAI]

never used neem oil in hydro...make sure it is fully emulsified before adding it

good luck with it

 

[Granger2]

Sahd,
I have mentioned not using Dr. Bonner's. It's fine for a surfactant, but I prefer using Insecticide Soap for an insecticide. All soaps are not the same. Some don't kill insects, or don't do a very good job of it.

For emulsifying Pure Neem Oil, you can use Lecithin granules in a blender with the oil, and it will make a stable emulsion, that will cause little harm to roots [unlike oils], plus it will provide a shot of P.

I like your meticulous, cautious technique. Two valuable tools are Cedarcide PCO Choice [Cedarcide.com] and Nematodes. Buy todes online, not locally. You get fresh product that way. Here's a good source:
https://www.buglogical.com/benefici...-bacteriophora/steinernema-carpocapsae-mixed/
Proper timing is important and keeps you from negating one tool with another. With todes, use overwhelming numbers.

Also, OGBioWar. I'm using it now, but the jury's still out. Many others swear by it.

Keep us informed. I can tell you from experience that you can keep RA's from damaging you crops with organic measures. Good luck. -granger
NOTE: I now [4-10-14] use 2-3 tsp/gal of Cedarcide PCO Choice. Higher concentrations cause root damage. Best to try on expendable plants, flush, wait 7-10 days to see if they pass. Very effective repellant too. -granger

 

[sahdgrower]

It seems my cautious approach isn't doing the trick. All my test plants are already to f'ed up for me to really determine if my treatment was very detrimental. All the while the RA are multiplying. I did get good enough results from my homemade 203 (I don't think all RA died on first treatment) to just risk it on my BBK#2. I completely submerged her net pot into my 203 and shwished around a bit then let her sit for about 8 minutes. Removed her, rinsed her with tap water and washed away as many RA (mostly dead but some still wiggling)as I could then returned her to DWC, and she seemed to come through just fine maybe even a little bit spunkier this morning. So I went ahead and treated my best plant just now BBK#1 she is growing like crazy even though she has the most RA, but her roots are starting to brown especially just above the water line. So I was desperate to at least knock the populations back. Which I definitely did.

So I am thinking, currently bbk1 and 2 are in really big net pots which holds alot of hydroton and a lot of nooks and crannies for RA to hide, now suppose I rig up a support system to hold the plant stable and allow the main stem to grow freely and at the same time wash all the hydroton out of the net pot. Is there any reason other than support for the hydroton? Does anyone on here dwc without any medium at all?

 

[symbiote420]

I'm getting ready to brew up my 1st batch of Cap's bennies' ...wonder if the peeps who aren't having success with it are just using a regular aquarium pump and stone? Says on the site to use a pump and stone rated @80L per/minute ....bought a double micro-pore airstone to use with my commercial pump ...about to hit my gals in a few hours!

 

[roasthawg]

I'm getting ready to brew up my 1st batch of Cap's bennies' ...wonder if the peeps who aren't having success with it are just using a regular aquarium pump and stone? Says on the site to use a pump and stone rated @80L per/minute ....bought a double micro-pore airstone to use with my commercial pump ...about to hit my gals in a few hours!

Count me in the group not having any success against bugs with caps... neither ra nor fungus gnats. Will have to check on my stone, it bubbles the water well but might not be the required amount of air nonetheless.

 

[symbiote420]

Also on the OGBioWar site Cap advises to use the tea at full strength/undiluted if you're under a heavy infestation. Due to the fact that RA's shed their skin every 3 to 5 days I'll be using the teas at full strength for three apps three days apart with the Foliar Pack ...then I'll run some b. subtilis and a zyme prod through the medium to help clean up the mess. Got my fingers crossed this works, saw peeps getting some good results with this method.

 

[Granger2]

Symbiote,
Yeah good point. Use OGBioWar at full strength if you have an infestation. The dilute is for a preventive. To me, the cost of using it full strength is trivial compared to the time and yield loss of an outbreak, not to mention mental anguish. Good luck. -granger

 

[sahdgrower]

quick update

quick update

Sorry I had intended on this journal being a lot more intensive but the shit hit the fan in life just as I discovered my stupid RA. Barely able to keep it all going but wanted to post my update.

After so much hemming and hawing I decided to hot dunk my 2 good clones. They are growing the best but the most infested go figure. Anyway of all my preliminary testing with my sacrificial clones most of my data was useless, however the one clone that looks the best of all of them is my VX#1 which received the hot water treatment. So this morning I went ahead and gave bbk1 and bbk2 the hot water dunk. The plants seemed to take it just fine although I will know better after todays lights out cycle, and I got a ton of dead RA. None of them seem to survive the treatment, even those that found their way to the bucket edge and out of the hot water were still killed by the steam trapped by the bucket lid I believe. Seems hot water may be the way to go for me. BTW I used 120F water and did nothing to hold temp. It only dropped about 5 degrees over the course of the 2 minute dunk. Crossing my fingers.

 

[sahdgrower]

oh yeah been wondering if anyone ever tried fish to deal with RA? Thinking aquaponics. Dump a couple guppies in each bucket and raise water to top?

 

[sahdgrower]

Update

Update

Hello ICmag,

Ok a more thorough description of what I did and the results.
First thing I did was to take a piece of lettuce and submerge it in 120F for a few minutes to see if there would be any obvious tissue damage or signs of cooking. The lettuce seemed unaffected. Also my VX#1 is starting to look a little perky so clearly the hot water drench did not do too much damage. So...

Filled a 5 gallon bucket with hot tap about 118F also had 8 cups of very hot water to add if needed. Took my BBK#1 and dunked her for about 3 minutes (hard to use my timer cuz it's on my phone and my hands were wet so I just counted).


As you can see the water temp did drop but not as much as I thought it would so no need to add the extra water for me. I did swish her around gently in the bucket and checked at the root zone for temperature penetration. The results....



A bunch of dead floaters. After treatment I could not find any survivors initially. Now a few days later I have found a few living RA on BBK#1 but they are very few in number. I am not sure how they survived but I believe another dunk should complete the process.

I also went ahead and dunked BBK#2 as well using the same process as #1.


I have not observed any obvious effects from the dunk on either plant. Roots are visually unchanged (although lots of dead RA I cannot dislodge from the root mass, suggestions welcome), and growth seems to be doing fine as well. My data is not incredibly compelling as to how much damage the plants sustain in this process but the efficacy of hot water is clear. I would suggest however that it is likely to be less damaging than conventional treatments.

I would highly encourage others to try this method and report back their findings. Unfortunately I did not have the proper setup to do a very decisive test and I am too small time to go any further than necessary....

So I have decided to keep BBK1 and 2, keep one Vortex clone that seems to be growing now and one Platinum Cookie clone tat is also growin. I will put those 2 in the DWC system with my BBK and flip to 12/12 on Christmas. I know the 2 small clones will be kinda pitiful.

Couple questions I have, how can I get dead RA out of my root mass without damaging it, or do I need to bother?
If my pitiful clones recover and grow nicely do they still have potential to yield herb and/or viable clones? or are they forever diminished by their difficult childhood?
How long should I wait to treat with hot water again? The RA seem mostly defeated but I do not want them coming back strong. Also don't want to stress my plants more than I need to.
How much if any help is my T5 if I hang it next to my 600hps (since they are still in veg).
Any comments or suggestions very welcome.

 

[Coconutz]

Are you just experimenting?
Theres nothing worth keeping there. These plants are not going to yield.
Cut your losses and clean up.
You dont wanna battle these things through your next grow and you're going to want your next set of plants ready asap.
Just start over and get rid of the infested plants
Spend your time and money sterilizing the room and area so you dont have to try and confine yourself to organic control of the infested plants.
I know this is the infirmary and people wanna talk poison and insect death, but lets think about the costs of running a stunted crop.

 

[sahdgrower]

You don't think the bigger plants are worth keeping? I know the small ones are pathetic. I am anticipating having to deal with RA again. I could clean and hope they never come back but I would rather equip myself with effective techniques to combat them. If vigor returns to the plants and they start growing very quickly, are they already too damaged? In my organic vegetable garden even a plant that was terrible in the beginning will yield nicely if I can return it to vigorous growth while still in Veg. How bout cuttings taken from these plants? Are they permanently screwed?

 

[Coconutz]

Id at least try and source a pack of seeds as backup...
Is this a bedroom type of grow or would you be able to leave out a NPS or a dr doom while it was empty?

 

[sahdgrower]

It is a room I built in an unfinished basement below living space. It would be pretty easy to sanitize but even the walk to the grow room is contaminated. I change shoes before I go in but it is still pretty exposed to contamination. I did drop a 10 pack of Vortex beans night before last and I have them quarantined away from my grow room.

You didn't really answer though. Do you think they are too pathetic and will not yield hard nugs? Even if I dial in the process from here on out?

 

[Coconutz]

I already gave my opinion on that.
Boiling the roots surely isnt gonna increase yield.
Since you already have beans going I would make sure the RA's were gone asap.
You dont wanna battle these things from crop to crop.
You mention its your first grow in a long time, so I dont know anything about your ability to get it dialed. Chances are a first grow in a new location isnt going to be dialed though.
Indoor/outdoor is a bit different. I dont know much about your height/time restrictions... But it seems liek you are using throwing a lot of $ and power at these stunted plants already.
If you are in CA the price of power alone would make you dump a damaged crop.
Its your call if you are going to be better off trying to dial this crop or one thats healthy from the start using IPMs

 

[sahdgrower]

well to be fair I did not boil the roots. I submerged them in 120F water. Water boils at 212F. I could hold my hand in the 120F water with significant discomfort but no burning.

I am not trying to argue as I really appreciate the advice. I am certainly questioning my own abilities to dial it in at this point as well. however I am a capable individual so I anticipate success..... Eventually.

When you say stunted are you referring to my pitiful small clones or the much larger ones? They are growing quite rapidly.