organics and pH. and lime

waktoo · Dec 5, 2013

Postin' links...

Maina, you only need one book, found here...

http://www.soilminerals.com/

I guess you found Logan Labs website. Awesome. I got my results back in 4 days, I think. They are very fast. It all depends on when you mail, I guess.

I suppose having a water test might benefit you, at least for peace of mind. But from my research and learning, unless it's REALLY bad, a soil mix combining proper mineral balance, ample organic material, and healthy diverse microbial populations will take care of all the ph balancing necessary to maintain stable pH levels in the soil.

waktoo · Dec 5, 2013

Maina said:
I'm calling lab in the morning.I'm going to have soil test and water test. Thanks chances of eBook not good I'm thinking. I can't test the stuff I put in soil its gone

Before you collect a sample to send off...

If you have perlite in your mix, I would suggest trying to remove as much of it as possible before having your soil tested. Perlite contains Ca, Mg, K, Na, as well as Fe and Al. All of these are considered in the tests offered by Logan Labs. While they are not readily available in your soil currently (nor will they be for quite some time), they MAY show up in you test results. I'm not familiar with the chemical extraction process used for these testing methods. So to be sure, I removed my perlite using classifiers (rock/sediment screens) prior to sending off for analysis.

Try to find out from the lab if leaving it in will actually effect the CEC ratio determined from the soil sample. Make sure the answer comes from one of the lab tech's, not the person who answers the phone (unless they're a tech', of course). I was going to suggest "floating" it out by soaking it water, and then drying the soil before sending it off for analysis. But in retrospect, soaking will release colloidal clays into the soaking water, which will then be poured out as "waste", and will not be included in the ACTUAL CEC of the soil sample. These tests consider the CEC of the humic and clay portions of the soil, not the organic content.

Maina · Dec 9, 2013

OK I read the book . I get it. I wish they had a break down on soil by the gallon or yard. I also had my water tested. My town has chloramine In the water. So I have a filter but at the tapp its .67 after filtering .11 is .11 high will it kill my soil? Do I need a better filter ? Picking out perilite will suck. I'm going to float it in water then dry the soil and send it in. Thanks for the help guys :tiphat:

Maina · Dec 9, 2013

The book was deep lol.

xmobotx · Dec 10, 2013

organic matter in the water will negate the chloramine toss some EWC or dead leaves or something in a bucket & let it sit for a few hours & you can be certain the chloramine wont be an issue

waktoo · Dec 10, 2013

Maina said:
OK I read the book . I get it. I wish they had a break down on soil by the gallon or yard. I also had my water tested. My town has chloramine In the water. So I have a filter but at the tapp its .67 after filtering .11 is .11 high will it kill my soil? Do I need a better filter ? Picking out perilite will suck. I'm going to float it in water then dry the soil and send it in. Thanks for the help guys

If you're going to float the perlite out, I would suggest agitating the mix as LITTLE as possible. The more you mix, the more colloidal clays may be forced out of the soil body and into solution (your soak water). The object is to preserve as many colloids in your soil mix as possible. This will give more accurate CEC readings when your soil is tested. Evaporating the water off might be your best bet.

It's possible to do the calculations for smaller amounts of soil. If you purchased Mr. Astera's book (or e-book), you can email him and let him know you're trying to make calculations based on volume, as apposed to square footage. He sent me a PDF file for a new chapter going into his newest edition (what edition did you get?) that explains how to do it. You'll need to know how much a gallon of your soil weighs when completely dry (perlite removed), so soak enough soil for your test so you don't have to go through the soaking/drying process twice. A few months ago I amended a 64 gallon batch of potting soil, so it's doable. You will have to come up with a fairly accurate volume for the soil that you're working with, though.

Although it is necessary to have RO filtration for filtering chloramine (and chlorine requires carbon filtration, at the very least), xmobotx's advice is spot on. I know many organic growers using municipal water that don't even bother with the presoak, based on the premise that the organic material in your soil mix will neutralize the chloramine just as effectively. The choice is yours. If you're concerned about the effect that non-soaked water might have on your micro herd, you can always inoculate from time to time with a compost tea.

Keep us updated.

waktoo · Dec 10, 2013

waktoo said:
If you're going to float the perlite out, I would suggest agitating the mix as LITTLE as possible. The more you mix, the more colloidal clays may be forced out of the soil body and into solution (your soak water). The object is to preserve as many colloids in your soil mix as possible. This will give more accurate CEC readings when your soil is tested. Evaporating the water off might be your best bet.

It's possible to do the calculations for smaller amounts of soil. If you purchased Mr. Astera's book (or e-book), you can email him and let him know you're trying to make calculations based on volume, as apposed to square footage. He sent me a PDF file for a new chapter going into his newest edition (what edition did you get?) that explains how to do it. You'll need to know how much a gallon of your soil weighs when completely dry (perlite removed), so soak enough soil for your test so you don't have to go through the soaking/drying process twice. A few months ago I amended a 64 gallon batch of potting soil, so it's doable. You will have to come up with a fairly accurate volume for the soil that you're working with, though.

Although it is necessary to have RO filtration for filtering chloramine (and chlorine requires carbon filtration, at the very least), xmobotx's advice is spot on. I know many organic growers using municipal water that don't even bother with the presoak, based on the premise that the organic material in your soil mix will neutralize the chloramine just as effectively. The choice is yours. If you're concerned about the effect that non-soaked water might have on your micro herd, you can always inoculate from time to time with a compost tea.

Keep us updated.

Damn, too new to edit posts...

I thought about the soaking procedure a little bit more. IF you evaporate the water from the soil, rather than pouring it off, then you can mix and agitate the soil all you want. In fact, this will probably get even more perlite out, while preserving any colloid floating in suspension.

Granger2 · Dec 10, 2013

Shit, wouldn't it be easier to do the math and mix up a mini batch of your mix, leaving out the perlite? You can filter out the chloramines with a Small Boy Filter with the KDF-85 carbon filter upgrade. Good luck. -granger

waktoo · Dec 10, 2013

Granger2 said:
Shit, wouldn't it be easier to do the math and mix up a mini batch of your mix, leaving out the perlite? You can filter out the chloramines with a Small Boy Filter with the KDF-85 carbon filter upgrade. Good luck. -granger

I don't think so. Way more work to mix a small batch w/o the perlite for a 2c soil sample. And then there's cycling time for a newly mixed batch of soil to consider....

Maina · Dec 11, 2013

Now some one said don't add loom . I would think in smaller amounts the clay would be good for the mix? Compost castings loom peat ? Wouldn't that help the CEC ?

waktoo · Dec 11, 2013

You'd probably be very surprised at how high the CEC of your soil is. Mine tested at ~20. I was told by Mr. Astera that it was "high" by most standards. Most farming soils (according to Astera) test somewhere around 6-7 CEC.

Wait until you get your soil test back before you start thinking about adding material to increase your soils CEC. Mineral imbalance and high H+ retention by cation exchange sites is most likely responsible for the troubles you're experiencing.

I'm still wondering WHY the same mix you've used several times in the past is giving you problems now. Can you think of ANYTHING that's different this time, like using different compost/EWC, brand of amendment materials, cycling time, inoculants, etc...?

waktoo · Dec 11, 2013

Maina said:
I mixed Up 6,000 gallons of organic mix same mix I have run the last 3 years. Always worked. Not this time pH started at 4.5 and I did the mix let it cook like 4 weeks planted a round and did another the next week had a few problems in veg but did foiler feeding and fixed things each time. Some leaf twisting but not bad.but when flower hit budding just wasn't going. I kept telling myself it will be OK. I had to leave town the last three weeks came home and nothing had to toss the round loss 6-10 lb. So I dug out my blue lad Digital soil pH meter And pH the pots 5.5 . Then cheaked the soil that had veg. Plants in it 5.5 . So I couldn't let this happen to me again. I was able to change soil pH of all the poted plants with h lime. It took over a week to find what would work. .6 grames of h lime for every 2 gallons of soil and 10% water per volume Would bring pH up 1.0 every time spot on.plants never got burnt or harmed.now all plants in the 5.5 soil are now at 6.5 . I really should have had 1 part dolomite 1 part oyster shell and 2 parts garden lime . And 2 table spoons per gallon of soil in straight peat that's at 4.5 will be the way to go . And if shit hits the fan I can bump it with h lime. But it seems to me if you go with the high end mix that's already at 6.5 you are really Limited To the amount of cal,/ lime you can put into your mix because you really don't want to change your pH if its already at 6.5 right? And you guys are saying you really can't get pH lock out with to much Cal. ?

Something I noticed after going back through your posts...

How were your plants being watered when you were gone for three weeks? Unless it was automated, is there any chance that whoever what doing the watering OVERWATERED your plants?

Do you have any pic's of the plant damage that you experienced when you got back? Are you using humic acid supplements in your soil drench water?

Maina · Dec 11, 2013

All of them are hand watered . Everything was the same but the loam .

waktoo · Dec 11, 2013

Maina said:
All of them are hand watered . Everything was the same but the loam .

So I would assume that the "waterer" knew what they were doing?

And loam was in the previous recipes, but not the latest? Or vice versa?

What is your loam source?

Maina · Dec 16, 2013

Loam source Not shure

rasputin · Dec 16, 2013

The most curious thing to me about chloramine is that I've yet to see anyone demonstrate a negative result from using water containing chloramines on their plants. People seem to be getting by OK drinking tap water, showering with it, and using it in their vegetable gardens. Is this a problem in the making? I don't know. Does anyone know?

Aside from some anecdotal evidence of skin issues, I've yet to see any real data confirming the dangers. Instead, I see cities like San Francisco advising citizens if they are really bothered by chloramine to add a slice of orange or lemon to a gallon of water to neutralize chloramine within 30 minutes as well as Cornell University saying it is very much ado about nothing.

http://waterquality.cce.cornell.edu/publications/CCEWQ-17-ChloramineDisinfectant.pdf

http://sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=4131

Mention of OM to remove chloramine -- http://sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=4125
edit:important to note additional OM should be added after first application, which will sustain some micro-life loss due to exposure. So treat first with EWC or molasses or whatever you use then add your usual amounts to make up your tea/nute solution/whatever.

http://skeptoid.com/blog/2012/12/07/*******watch-overreacting-to-chloramine-in-water/

Granted, we know chlorine kills microbes and who wants that in a living soil? I just don't know that there is enough chlorine per gallon to cause much trouble if proper microbial populations are present in the soil and also added to water through compost tea to counter any potential loss from chlorine.

It's worth noting that chlorine levels in chloramine are very low by the time the water gets to your house, many of the chloramines have escaped as well.

Don't get it twisted, I'm not for this shit in my water. Which is why I skip tap water altogether, well that and the flouride. Why waste good compost treating water if you can source clean water? It's not as convenient as the tap, for sure, but it's worth it to me.

Also, consider that water varies wildly from region to region and even house to house based on distance from water supply, temperature, and chemical composition.

If anyone is really intent on finding out exactly what it is they need to do to remove chloramine completely from their water the best way is to compare/contrast the local water report with a test of your own tap water to first discover exactly how much is present in the water. From there you can then work to figure out the best way to remove it.

As for removing chloramine and how, some easy options are the aforementioned organic matter, humic acid, asorbic acid, and active carbon filtration.

OM works to neutralize chloramines through adsorption and cation exchange. +charged ammonia binds to -charged OM, freeing up chlorine. Carbon from OM adsorbs the chlorine and boom goes the dynamite.

Whether this is even necessary or not is certainly an individual call. I certainly don't begrudge anyone wishing to remove as much potential trouble from their water as possible. I would too but skipping tap altogether has been a better option for both peace of mind and overall water quality.

Btw, that pdf is from 1998, frank. Perhaps we've learned a thing or two about a thing or two since then? Just messing with ya, man.

EclipseFour20 · Dec 16, 2013

BTW...."Sodium ascorbate also neutralize chlorine. It is pH neutral and will not change the pH of the treated water. Sodium ascorbate is preferable for neutralizing high concentrations of chlorine.... Approximately 2.8 parts of sodium ascorbate are required to neutralize 1 part chlorine. When vitamin C is oxidized, a weak acid called dehydroascorbic acid forms."

In my world...that equates to 21.2 mg/20 gallons water. I paid $8 for bottle (8 oz) at Mothers Market...and it works immediately.

Thanks to Microbeman!....See attached pdf.

Cheers!

Siro · Dec 17, 2013

lulz ICMag is crazy. Maina you get the results back yet? I want to get some stuff tested from them.

BurnOne · Dec 19, 2013

I'm going to lock this bitch session. As I will any in the future.
Burn1

xmobotx · Dec 19, 2013

i'm a little torn about whether i should clean this up a little... i dont want to censor anything but if anyone wants me to remove their posts, I can/will

kinda seems to me like organics should be simple ~i mean, we should understand the mechanism but shouldn't have to really get all worried about water sources, pH or chorine/chloramines

there's so many buffers in our soil & diversity is something which will really reinforce that

kind of seems like the opposite in our community; the diversity erodes our buffers quite rapidly

ETA; lol

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