Double ended bulbs and reflectors

[nachoconqueso]

So I stumbled across a reflector that houses a double ended bulb and has an 8" port for air cooling. People keep talking like double ended is the future. Learn me on this subject as I'm in the market for a new 1000w and I'm willing to give something different a try.

 

[seeingthings]

I'd be interested at the 600w level.

I've seen the DE bulbs for sale on a few different sites. Haven't seen much for reflectors though.

 

[nachoconqueso]

https://sunlightsupply.com/p-15008-acde-8-double-ended-air-cooled-reflector.aspx

Here's one from Sunlight Supply. As of right now I see DE bulbs available from Gavita, Philips, Ushio, and Digimax (1000w versions). There is also an adjust a wing kit and a non air cooled version as far as reflectors go. For the bulbs I know that the Gavita bulb says it needs the Gavita ballast and the Philips bulb works in the Gavita Pro-line ballast. Also, the Philips bulb is 400v but the ballast it works on runs it at 240v. I'm waiting for a response from Ushio regarding what ballasts they work on. Hopefully there is one I can try on my regular old quantum 240v.

I hit up hortilux too. You never know what they have in the works.

 

[habeeb]

if I believe your talking the 1000 bulb. you can't / shouldn't cool them. it will actually reduce output from them

 

[nachoconqueso]

if I believe your talking the 1000 bulb. you can't / shouldn't cool them. it will actually reduce output from them

Can you explain why that is? That's an 8" port on that reflector SS makes. Why produce a reflector with a port that size (which I normally use for my 1000w ventilation) knowing that 1000w DE bulbs aren't suppose to be air cooled?

 

[otis33]

I think there is an certain temperature(hot) that the bulbs work best at.... from what I've read. I don't own one nor have I ever even seen one, other than on the internet.

 

[nachoconqueso]

I think there is an certain temperature(hot) that the bulbs work best at.... from what I've read. I don't own one nor have I ever even seen one, other than on the internet.

I may have heard this before, but I think it was directly in regards to Philips bulb with this info coming from Philips. It still doesn't explain why SS, who knows what they're doing, made an 8" air cooled hood. There's no reason to make a hood that sucks and creates a situation where a bulb doesn't operate the way it should. So why do it? Drunk maybe? Or is Philips full of shit? I just don't see how blowing away radiant heat, using room temperature air, from the bulb prevents it from reaching its normal internal operating temperature. I'm in need of learnings here.

 

[Hammerhead]

Everyone that said cooling the DE is not recommended is correct. You can not cool these bulbs. They are meant to run at high temp., if you change the temp the spectrum will change. bulb might blow. This info is from a Gavita rep.. I have 2 of these 1k pro de lights. They get hotter then se bulbs do. These were designed for greenhouses with very high ceilings. I keep my room temp controlled. I dont cool the lights directly.

Im using the Agrotech Magnum DE Reflector on 1 of the Gavita's(par readings on this hood ar better then OEM)They do have another one that has ports for cooling I would never use it. Make sure you wipe the bulbs off with IPA. no oil from your hands can be on these bulbs. The oil can cause the bulb to prematurely fail.

 

[nachoconqueso]

Gotcha. Gavita sells Philips product so they get their info directly from them. I emailed Sunlight Supply so they could explain the purpose of this air cooled hood. They're kinda on the other side. We'll see what they say.

 

[habeeb]

because it's filled with Nitrogen, which apparently, makes them sensitive to the temp changes..

 

[Snow Crash]

Gotcha. Gavita sells Philips product so they get their info directly from them. I emailed Sunlight Supply so they could explain the purpose of this air cooled hood. They're kinda on the other side. We'll see what they say.

Straight from their AC/DE description:

The AC/DE’s patent pending design allows removal of heat generated by the lamp without cooling the lamp below proper operating temperature.

Heat rises. The glass prevents the heat produced from the bulb from easily warming up the area past the glass. This traps the heat it produces inside of the reflector. The air from the 8" duct passes behind the reflective material (between the reflective material and the exterior of the hood) rather than the traditional model of the air passing over the bulb. In doing so hot air from the bulb is redirected upwards through the reflective material and removed without actually directly cooling the bulb beneath operating temperatures, allowing the hood to be placed closer and to better control the temperature of the environment.

Really though, if your intake temperature is 6-7 degrees f beneath what you want the canopy at, and you have your ventilation rated at 2x the room volume (400cfm fan for a 200cfm grow space), even open hoods are an option. Tall ceilings help anyone, just in the way that it keeps the heat further from the plants, so maybe the Gorilla tents with their included 1' extension could be worth the money.

I know this is a community founded on frugality... but buy smart and you'll see the return in the harvest and extended life span on the equipment.

 

[nachoconqueso]

Straight from their AC/DE description:


Heat rises. The glass prevents the heat produced from the bulb from easily warming up the area past the glass. This traps the heat it produces inside of the reflector. The air from the 8" duct passes behind the reflective material (between the reflective material and the exterior of the hood) rather than the traditional model of the air passing over the bulb. In doing so hot air from the bulb is redirected upwards through the reflective material and removed without actually directly cooling the bulb beneath operating temperatures, allowing the hood to be placed closer and to better control the temperature of the environment.

Really though, if your intake temperature is 6-7 degrees f beneath what you want the canopy at, and you have your ventilation rated at 2x the room volume (400cfm fan for a 200cfm grow space), even open hoods are an option. Tall ceilings help anyone, just in the way that it keeps the heat further from the plants, so maybe the Gorilla tents with their included 1' extension could be worth the money.

I know this is a community founded on frugality... but buy smart and you'll see the return in the harvest and extended life span on the equipment.

I appreciate the input. I'm probably going to pick up the AC/DE and an ushio DE at the end of the month.

 

[nachoconqueso]

According to Ushio customer service, the double ended bulbs require run at 230v, require a 400v system voltage, and run on Gavita, Philips, and Sunlight Supply ballasts. They were unsure about the Quantum.

Anyone have a good price on Gavita ballasts? Greners sells them for $360 plus shipping. Seems overpriced. $360 + $300 for the AC/DE reflector and another $120 for the bulb puts you at over $800 after shipping. That's too much.

Edit: hydro shop guy says the Quantum ballast should work, but they haven't tested it. I doubt this as the Gavitas manual says the ballast can only strike 400v EL bulbs and regular hps lamps will damage it. Oh well, looks like I'm selling a quantum...

 

[Snow Crash]

ehydroponics has a Galaxy Grow Amp turbo 240v only ballast package with the AC/DE and the Ushio bulb for $629.95. http://www.ehydroponics.com/1000-watt-galaxy-grow-amp-double-ended-grow-light-package.html

I Figure... A Magnum 8, Ushio HPS, and Galaxy, would run $465ish there. So the upgrade to DE is like $160 (+35%). But if the bulb lasts twice as long and is producing more energy that the plants can use then it can pay for itself in the first year of use.

Maybe there will be a Gavita 1000w remote ballast package option available there in the near future with the AC/DE. Probably in the $700 range. I'll be sure to let you know if I see it, no sense in spending more than you need to.

 

[nachoconqueso]

ehydroponics has a Galaxy Grow Amp turbo 240v only ballast package with the AC/DE and the Ushio bulb for $629.95. http://www.ehydroponics.com/1000-watt-galaxy-grow-amp-double-ended-grow-light-package.html

I Figure... A Magnum 8, Ushio HPS, and Galaxy, would run $465ish there. So the upgrade to DE is like $160 (+35%). But if the bulb lasts twice as long and is producing more energy that the plants can use then it can pay for itself in the first year of use.

Maybe there will be a Gavita 1000w remote ballast package option available there in the near future with the AC/DE. Probably in the $700 range. I'll be sure to let you know if I see it, no sense in spending more than you need to.

Thanks for the link. I was actually going to pick up a mag and horti for $250 and now I'm all about moving on to DE. The difference in price kinda bothers, but I can justify it. Still confused though about which ballasts can run what. The Galaxy included in the package is the same type of ballast that my quantum is and this shop is selling them all together so regular digis might work after all. I'm going to firm it up with manufacturers before I do the purchase.

 

[Hammerhead]

Monster Garden has the best price 498.95 +15ship.. If that Galaxy ballast does not provide 400v it will not work properly. any ballast for the de bulbs has to provide 400v for the bulb.

http://monstergardens.com/Grow-Ligh...-non-ac/Gavita-Pro-1000-Watt-Complete-Fixture


I can tell you that any digital ballest cna fire the DE bulbs. If you dont have the proper equipment to measure the readings you will never know you are running the de bulbs improperly. Do some research talk to the vendors.


I had already went through all of this. I tested the solisteck matrix on the de bulb. It fired fine but my par meter reading where crap. when I put hte Gavita ballest back on the par reading wherew back to normal. The E-Ppappilon uses 100khz super high frequncy. those other digi ballast still use 60khz. I dont know if this is specific the E-P but Gavita ballast is identical to E-P.


Specs for E-P

Rated Mains voltage 220V‐240V

Voltage range (+/

​

​

‐ 10%) 176V‐264V​

Power Frequency ​

50Hz – 60Hz​

Current ​

4,4 A typical @ 240V​

Operation frequency 100 kHz (typical) ​

Light Source: 1000W 400V electronic double ended lamp​

Rated Power
1060W @ 240V​

Inrush current ​

< 50A​

Power factor ​

>0,95​

Dimming type ​

600W, 660W, 750W, 825W, 1000W, 1150W​

Philips GreenPower Plus 1000W EL ​

>2000 μmol/s. Rated 10.000 hours > 95%​

Weight ​

5,4 kg (11.9 lbs.)​

Dimensions (lxwxh) ​

38,0 x 23,0 x 33,0 cm (18.5 x 9.1 x 13.0 inch)​

MET Certification E113627 ​

Complies with UL1598​

Complies with CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 250.0​

‐08​

www.epapillon.com

• 1000W adjustable ultra​

‐high frequency ballast​

(Range: 600‐1150W).​

• High density Vega aluminum reflector with only 1%

annual depreciation.

• Patented open reflector design increases efficiency to
95%, promoting longer bulb life due to reduced heat
buildup.
• lncludes: Phillips Green Power Plus 1000W EL HPS
(double ended) lamp.
• Highest PAR Output in the industry 2000 micromol/s,
Rated 10.000 hours > 95%.
• Driver efficiency > 95%.
• Sealed housing with Gore​

​

‐Tex ventilation plug allows for​

extreme air pressure fluctuation.

• Lamp & reflector easily replaceable.​

• 3 Year warranty on fixture, 1 year on bulb​

 

[nachoconqueso]

Monster Garden has the best price 498.95 +15ship.. If that Galaxy ballast does not provide 400v it will not work properly. any ballast for the de bulbs has to provide 400v for the bulb.

http://monstergardens.com/Grow-Ligh...-non-ac/Gavita-Pro-1000-Watt-Complete-Fixture


I can tell you that any digital ballest cna fire the DE bulbs. If you dont have the proper equipment to measure the readings you will never know you are running the de bulbs improperly. Do some research talk to the vendors.


I had already went through all of this. I tested the solisteck matrix on the de bulb. It fired fine but my par meter reading where crap. when I put hte Gavita ballest back on the par reading wherew back to normal.

Ok that makes sense then. I'm looking at a package that includes the air cooled reflector Sunlight Supply makes for DE. Looks like I'm going Gavita Pro 1000 remote, SS AC/DE, and Philips Green Power. Can't get more beast than that when you crank it up to 1150 (Spinal Tap?). I don't have high ceilings so I doubt I could run it full steam in the summer, but you never know. No one is using this combo yet so the air cooling ability is totally unknown.

 

[Hammerhead]

you cant run it at all if you dont have min 30" from bulb to canopy. Even with that I would raise it to 35-40" from the canopy. I tried the 1150 settong at 30" I still got crispy tops. I dont use that setting anymore. not until I can get 12' ceilings...You also have more settings to chose from 600W, 660W, 750W, 825W, 1000W, 1150W. The Gavita is the same. I run mine at 825/1000..

Hope that helps

 

[nachoconqueso]

you cant run it at all if you dont have min 30" from bulb to canopy. Even with that I would raise it to 35-40" from the canopy. I tried the 1150 settong at 30" I still got crispy tops.

The crispy tops were from light intensity and not heat?

I think I can still swing it at the normal 1000w setting. I'm readjusting to scrog and 12/1 veg light schedule so those two should control stretch and overall height much better. Doin' it.

 

[Hammerhead]

HERE IS THE REPLY FROM GAVITA


We were the first to bring the double ended lamp to the market, with a Philips approved fixture and electronics, suitable for 240V. We are very aware of the frequency, which is actually higher than 100 kHz. The e-papillon uses the electronics we used in our first fixture. It is not a Philips fixture or Philips electronics, basically is it a copy of our fixture (up to the knob and the dim values) with a different reflector. It's always flattering when you are copied, keeps you sharp, and it is a sign you have something really good.

I know that many ballast manufacturers will claim that they fire a double ended lamp, but they do not state whether it is stable and it is certainly not warranted by Philips. The Philips lamps only have warranty when used in a Philips approved fixture.

We state in all our communication, and even on the lamp sleeve that it is only approved for use in a pro-line fixture, not for a normal ballast. Distributors should take their responsibility as well. Unfortunately many shops rather sell their cheap ballast or the one they make a better margin on.

The specific frequency is irrelevant for the user, we do not want to complicate things too much. The shop has a task in advising the customer. Unfortunately many shops are not in business for giving good advise.

Best regards, met vriendelijke groet,