Possible seedling deficiency/lockout? Please Help

[Elements001]

I added some cal/mag a few days ago, and it seems like she is slowly improving. I dont really have any hope left for this plant, but it has been a really good learning experience. Coco is more difficult than soil, but I feel that I'm starting to get a grasp on it, and so far it looks very promising. My other plant is in week two of flower in coco and doing amazingly. This is because I was using differnet nutrients that had calcium and magnesium in them.
Gotta use cal/mag all the time if your nutes dont have it in coco, did not know that.

 

[Elements001]

think it may have jest been a cal/mag deficiency causing a lockout, not necessarily a pH lockout.

 

[papaduc]

Mate, your problem, from the very beginning of this thread, has been one incredibly simple one - a hungry plant.

Believe me, when you get a ph related lockout in coco you will know about it and it will look nothing like that.

And the Magnesium Calcium thing? Unless you've bought a shit, not-properly-prepared coir, it is the biggest myth in coco growing.

I haven't seen this thread before today, but when I read one of your first posts in which you said you were feeding 5ml of basic food per gallon, and then you flushed gallons of water through the pot, I knew straight away what your problem was.

I'll give you an example in a couple of posts. But just so you know, it takes roughly 4 ml of starter feed PER LITER for me to get to 1.0ec, which is the feed strength I use from the seedling stage.

That's approx 16ml per Gallon... Three times what you're using!

You need a basic ec pen, and basic ph pen, and then you need a basic well balanced starter feed, and then you need to begin your feeding at 1.0ec.

I will promise you right now, once you do that, you will see healthy plants from the very beginning and you will wonder why you ever thought this was any harder than compost.

Take care.

 

[papaduc]

Oh, and btw, when you say you don't have any hope for that plant... there's nothing wrong with it, except it's still hungry.

What you have added in seems to have burned the tips. You're probably exceeding the levels for just those minerals.

Honestly, I've lost track of how many times I've said this to beginners using coco for the first time; but, please, ditch the idea of complicating coco growing by using individual elements.

You should only do this as a last resort if your basic starter feed is not working. Then you can add in 0.2ec of it on top of the basic food.

2 questions:

Have you got an ec pen yet?
What nutes are you using and what is the NPK ratio on the bottle?

 

[Elements001]

No, no ppm meter yet, I plan on getting on in the next week. The nutrients I gave it were roots organics buddha grow, 2.0-0.25-1.5, not much in it at all. Definently needed cal/mag for this coco, another seedling I had was having the same issue untill I gave it some cal/mag and it came right back and starting growing like you'd expect.
I honestly didnt know anything about this medium or coco at all when I got it. I thought it was basically the same thing as soil, so I did absolutely nothing to the soil except adding some distilled water with the (i now know) the wrong nutrients at the wrong strength, lowering the ec of the coco. I will also be buying some of GH floranova grow next week as well. I am currently using GH floranova bloom as well as koolbloom and floralicoius+ in another plant I put into coco a week or two before flower, and am having much better results. I've done a lot of reading around here, and feel i have somewhat of a grasp on what I need to do now. I have 2 more seedlings I just started, and now that I have things more under control with the coco they're actually doing quite well.
I just didnt know what I was doing at all, and treated coco like soil without even really realizing it. Very unfortunate, but it's been a good learning experience. Won't be making those mistakes again, and if I do at least I'll know how to correct them now.
Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[papaduc]

Most cal mag has nitrogen in it. I'd bet money it was the addition of that extra bit of nitrogen that boosted them along. It's very rare a seedling will show calcium and magnesium deficiency at that stage of it's life.

The nutes you were using are, like you say, very weak. Based on your measurements, you were feeding them just one quarter of what they need at that stage; maybe even less.

That's the biggest thing to get your head round at first and imo the biggest difference when transitioning from soil - feeding them straight away. You can be worried not to overfeed them, especially as babies.

As well as the other stuff you've learned, just bear that in mind for next time.

Buy an ec pen, and start your babies on 1.0ec of the base veg feed. If you've got a good quality coco, you will not go wrong doing this.

Coco nutrients are designed from the ground up. Every mineral is in there already. With a good coco and a good quality food, you might never see a cal or mag deficiency in ten years growing in the stuff.

 

[Elements001]

yeah, I believe it was mostly the cal/mag, because even the seedlings with their cotyldones or whatever their called were in tact and green. There is N in cal/mag, but essentially none. Think it was just the cal/mag locking out. the necrosis and spotting i had were very indicitive of cal/mag deficiency. That with a low ec meant nothing was being absorbed into my plant, and it was starving even though there is food in to coco mix I bought. Just needed cal/mag and all is well. Not saying this is the case for all coco, but i know its what helped me this time.
Peace.

 

[papaduc]

you can take a horse to water.......


If you're underfeeding by 4x and your plant goes pale, you cannot tell in what amount each mineral is deficient. They all will be. Especially nitrogen; The main one responsible for making your plants green. The necrosis is nitrogen starvation. It's probably the only time you'll ever see necrosis as a result of the plant eating it's own foliage for food.

Believe in me brother... Believe.

Grow the same plants, in the same coco... and this time use ec1.0 of your veg feed with no cal mag. In fact, start your flora nova on 1.0ec and drop the cal mag.

See if this happens again.

Then post back.

 

[Elements001]

think thew soil was ok since it was not just coco. its a hybrid mix : CocoGro® High Pith Coconut Coir, Hydrolite® (Silica Based Rock), Rice Hulls, Perlite, Compost, Earthworm Castings, Bat Guano, Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite, Seaweed, Yucca Extract, Humic Acid, Trichoderma Fungi.
Not trying to argue or anything, but there are some nutrients available in this mixture that should be enough for seedlings, as long as the ec of the coco mix is up to the right range. I have gotten my problem under control now, so thank you for the input.

 

[papaduc]

No problem. Good luck.

 

[Elements001]

you were very right papaduc.

I gave her some of my leftover flowering nutrient mix a couple days ago, and she perked up a lot and got some nice color back to her.
(I only gave her about a quart of the flower nutes. all I had left at the time and didnt want to over water/feed.)

I think I made a mistake though last night when I watered her again. The only vegging nutrients I had were the roots organic buddha grow I used in the first place. I went ahead and added about 20mL per gallon(instead of the 5mL initially), along with 5 mL of cal/mag. When I tested the pH it was very low(below 4.0), and took what felt like a large amount of pH up to get to about 6.5. I was using the dropper but seeing no change, so I just poured in a tiny bit and that got it to about the 6.5. Normally with my GH FloraNova I only need about half of the pipette full to adjust the pH.
I havnt seen any negative results yet, but I feel as though she slowed down. Felt like I used at least 10x the amount of pH up than I would for my flower mix. Didnt feel right.
I have been using General Hydroponics FloraNova bloom for my Bruce Banner in flower, and its doing so great. I am going to the hydro shop tomorrow to buy some FloraNova Grow and possibly RapidStart as well(have some seedling and clones going right now too.)


I have some other seedlings doing really well in the coco right now. The one on the left I did correctly from the start, and the one on the right is another one that's recovered from my intial mistakes of no food, (and/or cal/mag) as well as not pHing the water.

 

[papaduc]

Cool.

Watching people go down the well trodden cal mag path to nowhere frustrates me. almost all cannabis flourishes in a good medium with good nutes. If there are individual lockouts then there's a problem with either one of those, their application, or the environment.

The only vegging nutrients I had were the roots organic buddha grow I used in the first place. I went ahead and added about 20mL per gallon(instead of the 5mL initially), along with 5 mL of cal/mag. When I tested the pH it was very low(below 4.0), and took what felt like a large amount of pH up to get to about 6.5. I was using the dropper but seeing no change, so I just poured in a tiny bit and that got it to about the 6.5. Normally with my GH FloraNova I only need about half of the pipette full to adjust the pH.
I havnt seen any negative results yet, but I feel as though she slowed down. Felt like I used at least 10x the amount of pH up than I would for my flower mix. Didnt feel right.
I have been using General Hydroponics FloraNova bloom for my Bruce Banner in flower, and its doing so great. I am going to the hydro shop tomorrow to buy some FloraNova Grow and possibly RapidStart as well(have some seedling and clones going right now too.)

In those cases, I'd throw the nutes to the grass and start again. If you ever feel like you've fucked a mix, either by adding too much up or down, just start again.

Get a dedicated coco feed and never look back. You can get beautiful clean burning product without organics.

From what I've heard floranova is good stuff, but apparently really thick and needs a lot of shaking to mix it.

A Ph and EC pen are your two priorities at the minute. If you can only spend on one, get a dirt cheap version of the other. If you can't afford to spend on either, get both cheap.

I've got a little yellow made-in-china ph pen I got off fleabay for £7.50 to replace my £70 one and it's still going strong now nearly a year later.

Just make sure to get the proper calibration fluid to test it.

 

[Elements001]

right on man, sounds like a great plan. Think I'm definently gonna toss the roots organic. That stuff just isnt right for what I'm going for right now. Glad to hear its very acidic(kinda glad) though, hopefully means I didnt put in too much pH up (color came out at right about 6.5). Hopefully the floranova grow will work well, I've had no issues with their bloom formula, so I have high expectations for their grow formula. I will be definitely be looking into coco specific nutes asap.

 

[Elements001]

oh yeah, and on the FloraNova, that requires a lot, I mean, A LOT of shaking. The guy at the hydro shop wasnt joking when he said when one a

 

[Elements001]

arm gets tired, go to the other, then repeat untill you cant anymore. I get a genuine workout form that stuff (granted Im not filled with stamina like in my younger years). Sorry about 2 posts, at work, hit enter on accident. whoopsie

 

[Elements001]

And I will definitely be getting the meters within the up coming week or so. At least the ppm to start, then the pH one. I feel like I'm doing ok at using the little shaker test, but man it would feel so much nicer to have a definite number to work with.


Got the FloraNova Grow today, as well as some RapidStart for this and a few other applications. Gave her 5mL of cal/mag, 5mL of FloraNova Grow, and 2.5mL of RapidStart. Hopefully this will get things going back on track.
Everything else Ive started out in coco in the past 2 weeks has been doing very well thanks to the help from all of you. Thank you all so much again, this has been such a great resource!

 

[papaduc]

Keep the calmag under your bed. In case you ever need it.

From now on just use the floranova and nothing else. Use 1.0ec of that to start; drop the calmag.

There's a reason I'm telling you to do this; I'll try and explain..

Basically, you know the way you always hear people talking about learning to read your plants? Well it's a simple case of being able to spot whether it's hungry, or slightly overfed.

When the bottom leaves pale, up the feed by 0.2ec.
If they get really dark, or slight tip burn, knock it back by the same amount.

Making up half your feed with cal mag is only going to hinder you in knowing exactly what your plants need. There's no way that half a feed of calmag is going to be as good for your plants as a full feed of complete base plant food.

Here's the product label of your floranova grow.
Every single thing you will ever need in the veg phase is in it.


Total Nitrogen (N)....................................7.0%
0.9% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.1% Nitrate Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5).....................4.0%
Soluble Potash (K2O)..............................10.0%
Calcium (Ca).............................................4.0%
Magnesium (Mg)......................................1.5%
1.5%
Water Soluble Magnesium (Mg)
Sulfur (S)..................................................2.0%
2.0% Combined Sulfur (S)
Boron (B)................................................0.01%
Chlorine (Cl)...........................................0.01%
Cobalt (Co)...........................................0.002%
Copper (Cu)............................................0.01%
0.01% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe)....................................................0.1%
0.1% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn)....................................0.03%
0.03% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo)...............................0.003%
Zinc (Zn)..................................................0.02%

That's why we call them complete foods. It's why we pay our money for them. It's why every other bottle you buy on top, is called `optional`

...and you're taking half of it out to replace it with three elements already found in the right quantities in the floranova.

When you get your ec pen, and if you still really want to add it as part of your daily feed, then you'll bump the ec up by 0.2 with cal mag, then by 0.8-1.0 with your base nutes. So, a 1:4 or 1:5 ratio. That's how little you would use. You should definitely not be feeding cal mag at a rate of 50/50 mate.

I see so many people doing this, and it's no surprise I always see them in the plant problem section of the forum they use. It's usually always beginner coco users as well. This myth has gotten so far out of control that people are making up almost entire feeds with cal mag, adding some root stim, and then putting in the plant food to make up the numbers as a token gesture.

Then posting problems asking what's wrong with their plants....

I can't emphasise the simplicity of this plant enough.
Just feed it the base plant food, watch it kill shit, then come back, tell me I was right - and that since you stopped using cal mag altogether your plant is fucking shit up - and then go on your way growing.... into the sunset... a better, wiser man.

Take care.

 

[Elements001]

Gotcha. Good stuff to keep in mind. I was just throwing the cal/mag in this initial feeding just in case I somehow washed anything out of the coco mix when I flooded it with my nasty tap water in the ignorance of thinking I was dealing with a pH issue. Forgot to mention that earlier. I'm sure it was probably unnecessary, but I didn't want to over load the soil just 2 days after giving it that questionable roots organic mix, and figured it might help to buffer out the remainder of that crap left in the coco. Next feeding I'm planning on about 5mL FloraNova Grow, 2.5mL RapidStart (bought it and might as well use some for the next couple feedings), and 1 mL Floralicious + as per the GH Simple Drain to Waste Feed chart. Didn't notice that the FloraNova Grow has more Ca and Mg than the FloraNova Bloom I'm grown accustom to in the past weeks. I'll maybe bump it up to 10mL when I drop the RapidStart, but will probably start with 7.5mL first to make sure I don't burn her up in this teeny tiny state.

I promise you sir, the cal/mag will be stored safely under the sink in the back in a deep dark corner, until its assistance is possibly, but probably not required.
(Actually needing it a bit right now for my Bruce Banner in flower. Believe its showing signs of Mg deficiency right now. Thinking maybe Epsom salts would be better though, don't need the Ca necessarily.)


(Sorry if I shouldn't have put these here. Figured it would be easier than starting an entirely new thread since its possibly the same issue. You can see full details on what nutrients I'm using on my Grow Diary, https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=275079&page=2 )

 

[papaduc]

Good shit brother.

Far as your bruce banner, this is one of those reasons why I think you should always go with a good quality and simple nutrient. It narrows down the possibilities of what could be wrong. If you're feeding a sensible amount of your base food, any problem, apart from basic hunger or slight overfert, has to be something environmental.

I'll have a look at your diary.

 

[Elements001]

Right on man.
Think I got her all figured out now.



Got her on a good feed and shes growing great again. Gotta keep the EC (ppms) just right in coco or youre in for a host of trouble. That and I flushed the coco with distilled water and nothing else before translpanting, wiping out anything that was in the mix I bought.