Terpenation at Terpene Station

[Rickys bong]

My suspicion is that Appions are failing due to not having a really good filter/dryer on the inlet.

Filter/ dryers are filled with molecular sieve to catch water and should catch a lot of contaminants. But they also have a lifespan and need to be changed regularly. If left open to atmosphere they'll absorb water and be less effective.

Without a dryer tiny particles of resin will get into the comp. pistons and stick to the piston rings eventually causing failure.

Excessive running under vacuum isn't good, but probably not the root cause.

RB

 

[icdog]

Rickys which filter dryers are you using and how often do you change them per how many runs?

 

[hounddogg]

My Appion is fucked. I have only been using it for a month now. This morning I needed to transfer n-tane into my recovery tank. I pulled a vacuum on my recovery pot. Then I changed the filter drier and inlet screen on the input. Decided to do the 1 minute pressure test and it took 3 minutes. I thought to myself maybe it needs to warm up. So I closed both valves and let it run for a minute. Ran the test again and it was like 30 seconds. I figured it was good to go. My ntane tank has a diptube and I hooked it to the Appion and then to the liquid port on the recovery tank. I turned on the pump after opening all of the valves except for the tanks liquid valve. The pump started rattling. I opened the valve on the recovery tank. It sounded better. According to the scale the tank was filling. Then I noticed liquid butane pouring out of the Appion. I closed the valve on the ntane. Turned off the pump and removed all of the hoses. Tried the pressure test again and it won't go over 100 psi.

Apparently the Appion doesn't care for liquid butane. It was spewing out at me.

Hopefully the rebuild is painless.

 

[hounddogg]

Can I open the case to the Appion and try again? That way I can try to see what's leaking.

 

[high life 45]

Hounddog.
I took my app apart yesterday and it was fairly easy. Your gonna need some locktite of some sort when reassembling. All the bolts I took off inside the machine had loctite on them.

 

[Permacultuure]

I think a lot of the recent failures is due to recent decline in quality control, which happens when any products demand is increased, especially when unforeseen.

RB's dropping knowledge and is right about the filter drier aspect. I cap mine when not in use and am going to start rotating even more often. It might not be bad to switch to a vac pump after -10hg and sacrifice the tane and prolong the appion life....or just pour off at -10hg.

 

[Rickys bong]

Any large filter dryer will work, Sporlan's Catchall series are good, and they make some with activated carbon which improves performance. Hard to say when to change them, but they can be re-generated to a degree by baking them out.
Use a decent sized dryer, the tiny ones about half the size of a pop can are not going to last.

I'd be surprised Appions are failing due to quality issues. Nobody on the HVAC forums has mentioned a decline in quality and the extraction industry isn't going to be enough of a sales increase to make a difference in their production. The regular refrigeration industry buys lots of these things... A root cause analysis will most likely indicate operator error.

Hound: Looks like you tried to pump pure liquid. Since it ain't compressable the piston rings will have failed.

Rebuilds are easy, but watch for small shims under the cylinders. They gotta go back in the same spot. New piston rings require very gentle stretching to get them on.

RB

 

[Rickys bong]

Regis, thanks for taking the time to take those pics. Maybe this deserves a new thread, but there's a significant issue with these pumps in my opinion...

They are using a typical refrigeration compressor which is NOT oil-less.

The black unit in the center is what is usually called a hermetically sealed compressor. The crank and piston are lubricated from a oil bath at the bottom and the gas stream pumped is exposed to crankcase oil. Any oil film on the piston wall will get washed away by the butane being pumped.
The piping schematic shows a oil separator but it is on the inlet side.

There's a pic here: http://www.ref-wiki.com/technical-information/145-compressors/31773-hermetic-compressors.html

Some units have the piston on top, some are on the bottom.

Even with a filter-dryer on the outlet I wouldn't use one of these for extraction. The risk of oil from the pump contaminating the butane is not worth it. Only oil-less pumps should be used.
The Caresaver is fine for refrigeration use, but an extraction system needs to be carefully engineered.

Peace,
RB

 

[high life 45]

I'd be surprised Appions are failing due to quality issues. Nobody on the HVAC forums has mentioned a decline in quality and the extraction industry isn't going to be enough of a sales increase to make a difference in their production. The regular refrigeration industry buys lots of these things...

RB I dont know if I agree with you on that, youve certainly enlightened me on the mechanics of the pumps, but I dont know if your really aware of how big the extraction movement is.

Im not sure what things are like up in BC, but time and time again I meet people like me who just dont smoke flowers anymore.
I dont smoke unless im somewhere with no nail. Even then I usually glob some oil on a bowl and do my best to vape it..
I dont have a head stash of nugs anymore, I use to have at least a qp of various strains. Now I have jars with various extracts in them.
No bong here anymore, just two oil rigs.

We all know how hard it is to source parts for a terp, the whole country is sold out or selling out as we speak, it seems.

One question keeps coming to mind... "how many appions does a single hvac really worker have?, or even an hvac company"


We all know that fall brings harvest, harvest brings trim, trim gets extracted.

You can see two appions in the backround of Regis pic plus his caresaver.
I know theres three at my bros house.
I know of five other people with more than one.
Im hoping to have two recovery pumps before the end of the month.

I dont see hvac companies having this big boost in growth. Or the daily use that we are seeing in our industry. Half the country is gonna be covered in snow pretty soon.

now washington and colorado have recreational. Extraction is just getting started, and we are buying the $#!% out of appions.

Even the pros at skunkpharm told me that they had noticed that they were failing prematurely and had written the date of purchase on the appion in permanent marker. The date was less then a month old, and I was told it was showing signs of premature wear.

Im not suprised the hvac guys arent saying much cuz they arent putting the mileage on em like us extractors are.. dont you think theres a slight chance we might be boosting appions bussiness beyond normal?

 

[high life 45]

RB, Thanks again for dropping knowledge.

You would think that if the Caresaver is rated for R600 this would be taken into consideration.

When I think about this problem, if this was true, you would have to refil the oil somehow, or every so often right?

Extraction Tek utilizes them and they are very proud of it. Google em.

Regis, Did the unit come with instruction on refiling oil, and if so does it mention what kind of oil are you suppose to use.

 

[alshli]

http://www.galaxair.com/recuperationen.php

Anyone have an opinion on the RD2100. Unfortunately the data sheet is linked incorrectly.

 

[icdog]

Has anybody replaced the stiff vent tube with anything flexible? I read someone tried but can't find the link.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Yes, we've run it with PTFE tubing looking at alternatives to sight glasses.

The reason that I designed the Terpenators with a stiff tube, was to keep the path that the meds actually touched, all stainless, except for minor interface with edges of Viton gaskets.

Plant terpenes are amazing things, some of which are potent enough to strip paint, so I try to be careful what I expose them to.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Besides a good filter drier, it is also a good idea to periodically turn your tank upside down and after it settles, vent some liquid out the vent valve, to expel any collected water.

While butane will hold up to 32ml/L water, it still doesn't like it and it will mostly settle out in the tank, especially as the butane cools down.

 

[JColtrane]

One thing that no one really talks about is what the Terpenes are doing to the recovery pump, not just the butane ....

 

[hounddogg]

RB: I was following the manual for the Appion on how to transfer liquid. Was my problem the fact that it isn't rated for butane?

I ordered a ktg520 for $180 including shipping. I'll start a new thread detailing the process if there isn't one already.

 

[SkyHighLer]

Regis, thanks for taking the time to take those pics. Maybe this deserves a new thread, but there's a significant issue with these pumps in my opinion...

They are using a typical refrigeration compressor which is NOT oil-less.

The black unit in the center is what is usually called a hermetically sealed compressor. The crank and piston are lubricated from a oil bath at the bottom and the gas stream pumped is exposed to crankcase oil. Any oil film on the piston wall will get washed away by the butane being pumped.
The piping schematic shows a oil separator but it is on the inlet side.

There's a pic here: http://www.ref-wiki.com/technical-information/145-compressors/31773-hermetic-compressors.html

Some units have the piston on top, some are on the bottom.

Even with a filter-dryer on the outlet I wouldn't use one of these for extraction. The risk of oil from the pump contaminating the butane is not worth it. Only oil-less pumps should be used.
The Caresaver is fine for refrigeration use, but an extraction system needs to be carefully engineered.

Peace,
RB

I'm following along, is the above true? GW?

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

Just got off the phone with the US caresaver rep and he said "they havnt had any problems" and have over 67 units operating in the extraction industry. He said there shouldnt be any risk of the oil contaminating the butane, unless it is tilted on its side or upside down. He said the piston is located on the top of the compressor and should be free of lubricant which is located in the gears at the bottom of the compressor.

I cant say im convinced, seems like the possibilty for contamination is still there, im going to hold off using it for a bit. Thanks for the heads up Ricky

Highlife: No it doesnt say anything about replacing compressor oil. Which if its limited, we might be able to wash it away. But i doubt the compressor will like that.

Took my appion into RSD and they got a good kick out of what we are using them for. They said appion has been swamped. They called appion about the broken pump and the first question they asked was "was this used in extraction?" Then all the rsd clerks chuckled and laughed at how nobody ever brought in a broken appion untill we started using them for extraction, and how there are 100's of broken ones at the appion repair shop. Got my pumped fixed pretty easy, just replaced the fan and it was good to go.

 

[Permacultuure]

RB, Thats going to upset a lot of caresaver/extractionTek owners. I believe the extraction industry is making a significant impact on certain niches of HVAC. I recently tried to buy a few 100# recovery tanks and the guy said that their manufacture couldn't keep up with demand and were back ordered. He's was blown away by it......I'm sure this is reflective of the appion production also. Thanks for the knowledge.....

Regis, When you talked to caresaver who was it? was it Matthew Ellis? If so he's got a lot invested in caresavers considering he is the only US supplier and packages them with his over priced extraction units, there might be a conflict of interest......When I tried to talked to Caresaver directly and they sent me straight to him....

 

[icdog]

Is there some way to retrofit the appion so it can handle butane better?