LIVE: Peer to Peer "Cannabis Psychosis"

[TheCleanGame]

There's a live chat going on at psychiatrictimes.com

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/peer-exchange/cannabis-psychosis?

Hope the link works! Help me give the moderator something to chew on, eh?



Keep it Clean!

 

[TheCleanGame]

The discussion so far... (By the way, this site is not very cannabis friendly)

Tuesday December 3, 2013
3:06

Susan Kweskin:
Welcome to this interactive session on cannabis-induced psychosis. Our speaker is Josee Lynch, MD.
Wednesday December 4, 2013
11:06

11:08

Comment From Lynn and Steve Moffic
Do you think there are positive self-medicating aspects of cannabis, such as reducing the negative symptom of social discomfort in those with schizophrenia.
11:08

Comment From Lynn and Steve Moffic
Are there potential benefits for marijuana for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, that is, to help the person feel more socially comfortable, or do the risks of increasing psychosis outweigh this?
11:13

Natalie Timoshin:
Thank you for your questions, Dr Moffic. We've asked Dr Lynch to address them. Do you have any experience with this Dr Moffic that you'd like to discuss?
This dialog is open to all visitors.
11:16

Comment From TheClean Game
Have any of you done any research into Cannabidiol and it's anti-psychotic effects? Most of the research on 'cannabis' you'll find these days deals specifically with 100% THC extracts and THC-like synthetic chemicals.

These research studies that link THC and Psychosis are improperly being referred to as "Cannabis" studies when it isn't. It's a study of how THC affects the psyche. Anyone who eats too much marinol (Dronabinol, a synthetic THC-like compound) is going to experience "Manic Psychosis" and have a really bad day. Same thing happens with extreme THC, no CBD cannabis when used in large enough doses.

Same thing happens with some "Spice" type THC-like research chemicals. A lot of the cannabis used in the last 10 years is extremely low in CBD content.
11:25

Comment From Marcos Hardy
Wonderful, balanced presentation. You thoughtfully stated that "Adolescence (and, obviously childhood) is a sensitive period of neurodevelopment when the brain is more vulnerable to the effects of drugs" Therefore, the earlier in life that marijuana is used/abused the greater the risk risk for the development of psychotic events.

Why then stop at a warning for marijuana only? How about the enormous increase in the use of stimulants, mood stabilizers and antipsychotics in the early years of development, the psychiatrists, particularly in the USA, swamping children with them?

Shouldn't doctors be warned about this problem as much as calling the attention to marijuana users about the risks taken?
11:25

Comment From TheClean Game
It bothers me that the majority of 'Cannabis Information' regarding psychosis has been gathered from studies that had no controls for the 'cannabis' being used by their subjects.

Cannabis has a stupendously complex number of cannabinoid/turpene combinations and every plant has a different ratio of THC and CBD to it.
11:36

Susan Kweskin:
FACT: Results from 7 cohort studies showed a 40% increased risk of psychosis in cannabis users compared with nonusers. The data also revealed a dose-response effect—-the risk of psychotic symptoms was increased approximately 50% to 200% in those who used cannabis frequently compared with nonusers.

Moore TH, Zammit S, Lingford-Hughes A, et al. Cannabis use and risk of psychotic or affective mental health outcomes: a systematic review. Lancet. 2007;370:319-328.
11:41

Comment From TheClean Game
What validity would a study have where the subjects were given random prescription pills from a pharmacy? That's basically what it's like to use a hundred different types of cannabis. People don't 'get' that.
11:44

Comment From TheClean Game
You make a very valid point Markos. Thank you for that! I too am very concerned about the amount of chemicals that are being pumped through the brains of the children. It seems to be increasing.

There was even someone in California that wanted to spike the drinking water of public schools with ritalin as a 'preventative' measure. *sigh*
11:51

Comment From TheClean Game
Susan: the studies you're quoting are not valid. Sorry. It completely leaves out the reasons the cannabis users were using cannabis in the first place.

Unless there are studies that take non-users and make them use cannabis... the study itself is not valid. Doesn't matter if it was cannabis or tomatoes.
11:51

Comment From TheClean Game
And again... with no controls on the "Cannabis" being used, the study is, how you say, bunk?
11:51

Comment From TheClean Game
Yes, but the study says nothing about why these "Cannabis Users" used cannabis in the first place. The studies are pushing causation without proper studies.

Show me the studies that took 200 non users and gave them cannabis for a number of years. That would be a valid study.
11:52

Natalie Timoshin:
This presentation is based on a Psychiatric Times article that reviewed the evidence from a number of research studies. Here’s a link to the article and a list of references: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/cannabis-psychosis-link.
12:06

Comment From Rajeev Billing
Furthermore, there are numerous papers showing that Cannabidiol modulates the psychoactive properties of THC, actually serving as a protective factor against mania and psychosis.

12:09

Comment From TheClean Game
Refreshed and the comment I sent regarding the validity of the studies has not been posted? Are you really going to moderate that out? The point I make on the validity of the study is valid.

The only reason that research stands in the public view (published) is because the subject is cannabis, which is a subject the public is grossly ignorant on.

12:11

Comment From TheClean Game
Thank you Rajeev, there have been quite a few new studies in the last few years and they've all been positive in this arena.

12:11

Comment From Rajeev Billing
The whole idea of "cannabis" as a catch all term for the numerous strains of marijuana is ludicrous. The THC:CBD ratio (as well as countless other cannabinoids and terpenes) accounts for the psychoactive properties of each potential strain.

How valid can the "research" be if they aren't specifying exact THC/CBD content?

12:11

Comment From TheClean Game
Yes, none of those studies took non cannabis users and assesed them for psychosis... then turned around and gave them cannabis for a few years. Therefore the studies, by the very definition of science, are not valid studies for causation. No?

12:11

Comment From Marcos Hardy
Far from me to advocate the recreational use of marijuana, though I certainly believe its use should be legalized, particularly for its "medicinal" use. But I have to side with the person signing "Clean Game" on the questionable validity of doing research on the effects of marijuana with THC pills.

When people employ nicotine patches to try to quit smoking, the effects in many (dissociation, frightening nightmares, anxiety) is totally different from the nicotine administered through cigarettes.

12:28

Comment From TheClean Game
Do you still recognize the studies as valid or do you feel that there may possibly be a number of variables that were not considered?

12:28

Comment From Marcos Hardy
I was in a meeting at Columbia U where Dr. Malaspina gave a presentation and stated that "our children are at an increased danger of developing mental illness because of the widespread use of marijuana and its legalization."

When I asked her if she was not worried about the increase in the use of prescribed psychoactive drugs in children she dismissed my concern, stating that the use of psychotropics in developing brains was employed judiciously by diagnosticians to treat, and not to provoke mental illness, as marijuana does.

Her comment was greeted by a thunderous applause from the audience. As they say, "bad moon rising." We have to look at the mental problems that drugs cause and might be causing, but the willy-nilly use of drugs in developing brains by prescribing clinicians should also be of extreme concern. Shouldn't it?

12:28

Comment From TheClean Game
Josee, what's your take?

12:28

Comment From TheClean Game
Oooh, good point Marcos. Having quit tobacco almost 10 years ago now, I hadn't thought about that since my cannabis education began 5 years ago. Very good point!

12:41

Comment From TheClean Game
Marcos: Your comment regarding the meeting you attended is horrifying. I look forward to seeing such ignorance fade away as soon as possible. Wow.

12:41

Comment From Rajeev Billing
Marcos made a great point.........and that type of academic/clinical arrogance displayed by that doctor is a big symptom of the overarching issue of prescribing drugs in general.

The belief that psychotropics are somehow safe because they've been given FDA approval is a naive and dangerous belief that's ruining people's lives.

Are we to believe that putting a child on amphetamines or atypical antipsychotics for ADHD isn't going to adversely effect his or her neurodevelopment? Many a clinician has employed drugs "judiciously" and done more harm than good.

12:41

Comment From Rajeev Billing
Ultimately, I don't want to detract from the main point, which is that the prevailing beliefs on cannabis in the psychiatry community are based on flawed research

12:41

Comment From TheClean Game
So that's it?

12:43

Comment From TheClean Game
sorry, having difficulty with the lag time between posting and having it show up here.

12:59

Comment From TheClean Game
I'm still interested in Josee's take on the validity of the studies. We've heard from Natalie (thank you for moderating) but not from Josee.

1:59

Comment From Lynn and Steve Moffic
Can marijuana as self-medication (and medical marijuana) help certain negative symptoms of schizophrenia like social anxiety and isolation, once an individual finds that it is tolerated and is not increasing psychosis?

2:08

Comment From TheClean Game
Lynn and Steve: Yes. I live in Colorado and have access to a cut of cannabis called "Harlequin" which is 8% CBD and only 6% THC.

The reports from post traumatic stress disorder sufferers is that only half a gram to a gram a day is enough to remove nightmares and allow social interaction again. Even with individuals who've had extreme social anxiety for decades.

 

[TheCleanGame]

I posted a reply that the articles mentioned are not scientifically valid unless (again) they took non cannabis users, assessed them for psychosis and then gave them cannabis for a few years.

The moderator seems to have swallowed that one. heh
(Edit: Sweet! They posted my calling them out... then posted what they'd moderated out.)
(Edit:Edit: The moderation time is soooooo long. LOL)
(Edit:Edit:Edit: Up to 10 minutes wait between posting and having it show up so far. The conversation is not going the way they expected. *grin*)

Keep it Clean!

 

[TheCleanGame]

Show me a study that took 2000 NON cannabis users, assessed them for psychosis, and gave them cannabis "OF A KNOWN CANNABINOID/TURPENE CONTENT/RATIOS" every day for a few years.

THAT is a valid study that I would pay attention to the statistics on regarding "Cannabis Psychosis". lol

This is like pulling teeth... I sure hope they keep the chat up after it's over. Some good points there by other folks and some scaaaary stuff about the psychiatric industry.

Keep it Clean!

 

[Mate Dave]

Sounds like your having fun!

 

[TheCleanGame]

Well... sort of. lol

The 'speaker' has been unexpectedly called away with work. (The last delay resulted in the posting of another article that quoted 'facts' gleaned through the use of straight THC. *sigh*)

I can only hope they're actually working and not frantically searching for a valid rebuttal somewhere, 'cause she's not going to find it.

Keep it Clean!

 

[Mate Dave]

Ha ha.....Your point on taking 2000 healthy non smokers and having to get them to consume cannabis for a sustained period is too valid. It detracts from them wanting to have to answer the question, if they have any valid studies to do with cannabis?? Anything at all we can wait.. Once they realize they haven't had all the facts.

 

[Raho]

Way to kick the facts Clean!
Their "science" is crap and you pointed out the flaws in their methodology with clear, concise arguments.

These kinds of sessions are very important to reach those in the medical/scientific community who are actually trying to learn something (instead of simply reinforce their own misguided assumptions.) I'd rep you but I'm all out for today (a first for me.)

 

[TheCleanGame]

Thank you. I've spent quite a bit of time learning about and benefiting from cannabis... about time I helped others as well. eh?

I find it interesting that they 'moderated' a comment I made about honesty and integrity being very important when you come across new information. I feel it's my duty to look into why something goes so contrary to my beliefs.

Most people I run into just look for ways to reinforce their opinion that's based in ignorance. Can you relate? lol

Keep it Clean!

 

[nattynattygurrl]

Nice work TGC!!

 

[TheCleanGame]

Thanks Natty, good to see around.

Wondering if the moderator is out to lunch or my reply to the following question was 'moderated' to the bin already.

Psychiatric Times recently conducted a survey of its readers about their views on medical cannabis. We'd welcome your thoughts on this:

On a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being the highest, how concerned are you that medical cannabis is associated with psychiatric adverse effects?

My reply:

Considering what I know about cannabis, THC, CBD and psychosis... less than 1.

Haven't seen it show up yet and that was over an hour ago. Hrmmmm...

Keep it Clean!

 

[TheCleanGame]

There's no lag. It's a couple women debating over each post as to whether or not it should be moderated to the bin before they "ok" them.

I've had private messages from Josee instantly and yet still the posts I type are being binned. Sad really.

Good Luck Girls! I fear for the safety of your patients.

Keep it Clean!

 

[Harry Gypsna]

Nice work TCG

 

[trichrider]

ask how the 7 cohort studies were performed and when and how did they receive permission to do studies with schedule 1 drugs...a link to those would suffice.

give em hell

 

[xmobotx]

nice work

i decided to jump in as well/love to gang up from a 3rd party site

lol, it looks like I may be too late

lol, I guess their live chat w/ moderation is just too cumbersome. it timed out before my 1st comment ever got approved. oh well, now it's just some guy parroting off more synthetic cannabinoid trife

 

[RoadRash]

I think I might have had that.

But I don't remember.

Is memory loss one of the symptoms ?

 

[RoadRash]

I meant to put in a smiley ... but I can't edit my posts !

 

[TheCleanGame]

Yeah... the lack of CBD that can contribute to an episode of manic psychosis would also contribute to memory loss. At least I think I remember that correctly. LOL

Interestingly enough... they private messaged me through the chat system and at one point asked for a url to an article on my site I mentioned. I had already had 3 posts get binned so I sent the Prohibition Causes Psychosis post on my blog. (Anyone feel free to link that for me... tou says I can't. Thanks)

Lo and behold I have a comment this morning on a post outing PsychiatricTimes.com as a media tool. The post basically points out they're not a source of information for cannabis related subjects. The comment is the same ip as the only hit on that url the day before. An ip that pretty much scanned the whole site.

The comment? LOL Hang on and I'll go get it...

Submitted on 2013/12/05 at 9:06 am

Mr Clean
Very interesting blog–I wonder what your background is (eg, education, experience), I don’t see it anywhere on your site???

LOL! Seriously? I'm pointing out the fundamental scientific flaws in the studies they're using to push this site's agenda and she's calling for credentials? WTF has that got to do with anything? lol Facts are facts. Butting against them will just bloody your forehead.

So....... Copied the beginnings of my reply to a text file, canceled my reply and left her comment un-moderated. Default on my blog is to hold comments for moderation.... helps with spam. lol

Closed everything else out and worked on other tasks while I occasionally came back to the file and wrote a bit. When I'd finished the response... my diplomacy button was really cracked and broken up from the repeated mashings it was getting from me all afternoon.

I come back to post my reply and allow her comment and what do I get greeted with? You're going to love this one. lol

Submitted on 2013/12/05 at 11:45 am

How interesting, I post a comment asking about your credentials, and it gets taken off. What are you hiding?

Wow... Really? Again I have to sit back and ask myself... "And this is a 'Professional' who deals with people who have mental issues?" Woah...

Some seriously messed up stuff going on in the psyche industry. Been going on for a long while and I'm glad to see the beginning of the end. Keep Pushing!

Keep it Clean!

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I dont even know where to start when discrediting this "cannabis psychosis" b.s. there is so many juicy openings..................

 

[Sativa Dragon]

Very well done TCG, I read it all, and noticed the one woman couldn't compete with your knowledge and presentation.

Way... TO... GO...

Ma Man TCG

Your ma man Blue...

Peace