organic soil basic concepts, please help me understand them!

[Cosmic Surfer]

I am so confused! There seems to be conflicting info on how much of what to use in dozens of different recipes and I just want to find the one right for me! I will go off now and quote things and come back to explain. thanks!

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

Here are some tried and true recipes for getting started in organic growing. Pick one of the first two soiless mix recipes for your grow medium. Then, choose a nutrient recipe that will work best for what you have available.

Here are two very good organic soiless mixes...

LC's Mix is great for any stage of growth. You can germ seeds in it, grow mothers in it, root clones in it as well as veg and flower in it.

LC’s Soiless Mix #1:

5 parts Canadian Sphagnum Peat or Coir or Pro-Moss
3 parts perlite
2 parts worm castings or mushroom compost or home made compost
Powdered (NOT PELLETED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

ok first of all, how do I know what a cubic foot is. There are no handy scoops that measure out 1 cubic foot or 1 gallon at a time, if you know of any please tell me! (a plastic gallon jug would be too flimsy as a scoop I would think, and would not be a full gallon if you cut too much off) I know there are compressed cubic feet and loose, but I assume if I had a 2 cubic foot bag full of soil, I add 2 cups?

...Wal-Mart now sells worm castings.

not around here, never saw it!

Or, if you use Pro Mix, Sunshine Mix or Fox Farm mixes...

LC's Soiless Mix #2:

6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up) / Fox Farm Ocean Forest or Light Warrior
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered (NOT PELLETED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.

yes, this is the one I try to use. But I think I commited a grave boneheaded error as I will detail later.

If you use a 3 qt. saucepan as “parts” in the amounts given above, it equals about 1 cu. ft. of soiless mix and you can just dump in a cup of powdered dolomite lime. The dolomite lime is for Ca. and Mg. not just to adjust the PH of the soil.

Are you sure? I took a 3 qt saucepan and put both liquid and solid material in it, and it seemed to roughly equal one of those folger's "makes 270 cups" plastic containers. So, in my attempt to follow the recipe, I take 6 of those of soilless mix, 2 of perlite, and 2 of worm castings (and here is where I think I messed up), then: I put 1 cup of lime and 1/2 cup of the other mentioned items and mix it up. Now when I re-read it, sounds like I vastly underdid those ingredients? But yet, there is no way 2 of those Folger's scoops equals a 2 cubic foot bag of soil, so is there something wrong with the formula or me?

But, a "part" can be anything from a tablespoon to a five gallon bucket. Just use the same item for all of the "parts".
(me: ok, let's just use 5 gallon buckets as "parts" then. Say I want to fill 20 bags that are 5 gallon in size (just as a hypothetical example), I need 100 gallons of total material right? how do I translate that when I buy things that are listed in cubic feet?)
Now for the plants organic food source

Choose one of these organic plant food recipes to add to LC's Soiless Mix.

RECIPE #1

If you want to use organic nutrients like Blood meal, Bone meal and Kelp meal...

1 tablespoon Blood meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
2 tablespoons Bone meal per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
1-tablespoon kelp meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
or Maxicrop 1-0-4 powdered kelp extract as directed
(OPTIONAL) 1 tablespoon per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of Jersey Greensand to supplement the K (potasium) in the Kelp Meal and seaweed extract.

again, I just used 1/2 or 1 cup as prescribed above per 20 folger scoops. I use one of those tyvex (or whatever they are called) black tubs for mixing, and that is all I have room to deal with at one time. I mix that much, use it immediately (I read later you are supposed to let it sit, but I have no room for 5 or more of those tubs to sit for weeks!), then mix more and so on.

Mix all the dry nutrients into the soiless mix well and wet it, but don't soak it. Use Liquid Karma and water @ 1 tbs./gal. Stir and mix it a few times a week for a week or two so the bacteria can get oxygen and break down the nutrients and make it available.

yeah so I messed that up too as stated above, any mix I can use immediately then?

And don't let the mix dry out, keep it moist and add water as needed. It'll also have time to get the humic acids in the Liquid Karma going and the dolomite lime will be better able to adjust the pH of a peat based mixture too.

With this recipe, all you need to do is add plain water until harvest.

RECIPE #2

If you want to use guano in your soil mix...
Bongaloid's Guano Mix.
Use all these items combined with one gallon of soil mix.

1/3C hi N Guano Mexican Bat Guano or Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/2C hi P Guano (Jamaican or Indonesian Bat Guano)
1TBS Kelp Meal
(OPTIONAL) 1TBS Jersey Greensand

RECIPE #3 (My favorite)
If you want to use guano tea and kelp...

Guano Tea and Kelp:

Seedlings less than 1 month old nutrient tea mix

Mix 1 cup earthworm castings into 5 gallons of water to make the tea. Add 5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses.
Use it to water your seedlings with every 2nd or 3rd watering.

Veg mix-

1/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/3 cup High N Bat Guano (Mexican)
1/3 cup Earth Worm Castings (EWC)

(That makes the "dry mix". You can make all you want and save it to use later.)

Mix with water @ 1 cup of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses

Use it to water with every 3rd watering.

Flowering nute tea mix:

2/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano
2/3 cup Earth Worm Castings
2/3 cup High P Guano (Indonesian or Jamaican)

(That makes the "dry mix". You can make all you want and save it to use later.)

Mix with water @ 2 cups of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses
Use it to water with EVERY watering.Burn1

even if I had room, drying out would be an issue. And oh crap I need an air pump and something called a stone for brewing tea? More money I don't have!

You can use queen size knee high nylon stockings for tea bags. 3 pair for a dollar at the dollar store. Tell 'em you use them for paint strainers. Put the recommended tea in the stocking, tie a loop knot in it and hang it in your tea bucket. The tea should look like a mud puddle. Agitate the bag in the water vigorously. An aquarium pump and air stone will dissolve oxygen into the solution and keep the good bacteria (microherd) alive and thriving. Let it bubble a day or two before you use it. If you find you are making too much tea and having to throw it out, use 2 1/2 gallons of water and cut the nute amount by half.Burn1

oh great, they look at me funny as it is!
(me: great, so if I use the guano tea, I don't have to buy hundreds of dollars worth of that other stuff? cost is a factor for me)

RECIPE #4
Three Little Birds Method
40 gallons used soil
4 cups alfalfa meal
4 cups bone meal
4 cups kelp meal
4 cups powdered dolomite lime
30 pound bag of earthworm castings . . .
That’s the basic recipe . . .
However we also like to use
4 cups of Greensand
4 cups of Rock Phosphate
4 cups of diatomaceous earth


RECIPE #5
Fish and Seaweed (This is sooo easy)
1 capful is 1 TB or 15 ml.

For veg growth…
1 capful 5-1-1 Fish Emulsion
1 capful Neptune's Harvest 0-0-1 Seaweed or Maxicrop liquid
1 gallon H2O

For early flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-3-1 Fish/Seaweed
1 gallon H2O

For mid to late flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-4-1 Fish
1 gallon H2OBurn1

great! even better! so with this I can omit all the above besides the soil and just add this as indicated? Trouble is, I just got a 30-something bag of bat guano and didn't think I would need the seabird, and getting back to the hydro store can take a while and I need to mix something now!

Flushing

There is absolutely no reason to "flush" organic nute solutions from your soil mix. In an organic grow, the plants don't take up the organic nutes (guano, bone, blood or kelp). The bacteria eat the organic nutes and excrete food that the plant can feed off of. So the organic nutes don't need to be flushed because they never enter the plant. And besides, meals like kelp, bone and blood along with worm castings and dolomite can't be flushed from your soil mix anyway. If you use guano and seaweed, try using plain water or worm casting tea for your last watering or two so the plant can use up what's left in the soil. But drowning your soil with water isn't necessary.

Burn1

ok say some of this salted kelp meal is already in the soil and has been used for some transplanting already, then what?

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

ok speaking of flushing, the plants did not seem to be getting enough nutes and so I had to add Peter's (gasp, yes, the chemical powder, hey I was desperate!) and some liquid nutes. I ran out of kelp meal and thought that stuff sold at the grain store was sufficient and cheaper. It was dark and when I brought it home, it said "not more than 6% salt" on it! Aw shit, are you kidding me? Can I use it anyway and the salt will flush out without harm, or am I stuck with 50 pounds of junk?

 

[Gelado`]

Smoke it!

Is it powdered or dried, whole kelp? You may be able to wash leaves. I guess you can wash powder too, but it's a little trickier...

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

I don't think it said, it says "sea life kelp meal for animals". It was after dark, and you drive up to the warehouse and they put it in, so I never saw the info on the bag until I got home, and not even then, I checked today and was stunned.

I am reusing soil. Do I add less of the additives or the same?

 

[xmobotx]

maybe you could sum that up w/ what you actually mixed?

1 cu ft = 7.48 gal SO; 1 TBS/gal ~= 1/2 cup/cu ft. 1/2 cup is 8 TBS so, 1/2 cup/cu ft is just a little richer than 1 TBS/gal

when you wonder about this stuff, if you use the google search engine, type "cup to gal" or "TBS to cubic foot" & it'll respond w/ a form you can use to figure out the conversions

I would advise limiting or avoiding dolomite lime if you want to recycle ~something like 1 pt dolo lime to 1 pt gypsum to 2 pt oyster flour combined & added @ 1 cup/cubic foot {2 TBS/gal} is a much better ratio

 

[JFlo]

Great thread xmo. From what I gather conversations about LOS are much like conversations about religion. Everyone has an opinion and their own way of doing. I'm still fairly New to organics and still learning. I will def be subbing to the thread in hopes of some enticing conversation

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

thanks for the support Jflo. xmo, I have used both the #1 and #2 recipe and put in the additives to "feed the plant" as outlined above. I thank you for the conversions, but think I have a conversion page bookmarked somewhere in some saved file of bookmarks. I do have limited time to read this or search that, as I need to do this now and it will take me at least 10 days to read that thread I referenced alone! But yes, I do remember figures like what you quoted. Which makes that statement I quoted all the more unbelievable, that a 3 quart saucepan equals 1 cubic foot. First of all, 4 quarts to a gallon right? Also, 2 of those saucepans is 2 cubit foot, the same as in a great big bag of soil? Someone is confused here and hoping to clear this up. thanks!

Could someone for instance say what proportions of those additives you would need for 20, 40, 50, or 100 gallons of total finished mix? Take your pick! Just trying to figure things out, goes back to that whole saucepan thing!

 

[waktoo]

thanks for the support Jflo. xmo, I have used both the #1 and #2 recipe and put in the additives to "feed the plant" as outlined above. I thank you for the conversions, but think I have a conversion page bookmarked somewhere in some saved file of bookmarks. I do have limited time to read this or search that, as I need to do this now and it will take me at least 10 days to read that thread I referenced alone! But yes, I do remember figures like what you quoted. Which makes that statement I quoted all the more unbelievable, that a 3 quart saucepan equals 1 cubic foot. First of all, 4 quarts to a gallon right? Also, 2 of those saucepans is 2 cubit foot, the same as in a great big bag of soil? Someone is confused here and hoping to clear this up. thanks!

Could someone for instance say what proportions of those additives you would need for 20, 40, 50, or 100 gallons of total finished mix? Take your pick! Just trying to figure things out, goes back to that whole saucepan thing!

First of all, you'll save yourself a lot of work and brain power if you use a 5 gal' bucket for measuring your soil base. 1 1/2 buckets equals one cubic foot.

A good rule of thumb when adding amendments to your SOIL BASE is to use 2-3 cups per cubic foot (7.5 gallons) of soil base. This 2-3 cups of amendments is COMBINED amendments. Figure out the amount of soil base that you have, determine how many cups of "amendment" you need based on that volume, mix the amendments TOGETHER, and add to the soil base. Keep in mind that "amendments" do not include things like lime, rock dust, or any mineral additions.

For instance, say you want to use kelp, alfalfa, and Espoma tomato tone (just an example, not an endorsement) as your amendments. You have, let's say, 20 gallons of soil base. This is close to 3 cubic feet (22.5 gallons). Keep in mind that these ratios don't have to be exact (unless you want to do the math!). So for 3 cubic feet of soil base, you will need 6-9 cups of amendment. If you go with 3 cups of amendment per cubic foot, that would mean 3 cups EACH of kelp, alfalfa, and Espoma tomato tone, for a TOTAL of 9 cups of amendment for 3 cubic feet of soil base. I personally would use a higher ratio of kelp compared to the rest of the amendments because of its high micronutrient content. But that's just me...

I hope this helps clear things up for you, rather than add to the confusion.

Here's a conversion link that I've found to be very useful over the last few years. Put it in your tool bar. You'll use it, trust me.

http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/conversions.html

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

awesome, this is what I have been waiting for, thanks, man!

 

[Swayze]

This was an old post on here that I'm glad I saved. It will make life easier.

"The basic recipe is to mix sphagnum peat moss (or leaf mold and/or coco coir), aeration bits (pummice, turface, scoria, perlite, vermiculite, rice hulls, calcined clay...a mix of different sized material is best), and compost (usually thermophilic compost and worm castings). Most run something like 25-33% compost, 25-35% aeration and the rest is peat. You would be just fine running equal parts peat, compost, and aeration. Use whatever you can get your grubby little hands on. This is your base. Diversity is the best, but don't bother having a bag of expensive rock dust mailed to you. The idea is to use the recipe as a formula to utilize what you can get.

Now it can be a little confusing for the uninitiated---we're going to have to amend. Here is the post from a guy you may know as Clackamas Coot that really got me going in the right direction:

"I use 3 mixes to keep things straight in my old brain. They are as follows:

1. Food Mix
2. Fix-It Mix
3. Mineral Mix

Food Mix
You want about 2 cups of your food mix - however you get there. You're going to use (he was responding to a guys question about how to mix everything he already purchased -ed.) alfalfa meal, fish meal and bone meal. Mix up a large amount with equal parts (by volume and not by weight) and add 2 cups of this mix to your soil.
If you were to decide that you wanted to add canola meal (aka rape seed meal), flax seed meal (aka linseed meal), et al. then add the same volume of this to your mix but you're still only going to use 2 cups of the final mix. That total amount that you want to use does not increase - you're simply making your Food Mix more diverse( a worthy goal, IMHO)

Fix-It Mix

You're using kelp meal and a combination of neem and karanja meals. Again mix these in equal parts (by volume) and add 1-1.5 cups of this mix to your potting soil. If you were to add crab meal (another good Fix-It component) you would still add the same amount even with the addition of another agent, i.e. 1-1.5 cups.

Mineral Mix

You're using azomite and green sand - mix these together like the other mixes and of this mix you'd want to add about 1 cup to your potting soil. If you were to add limestone (or Oyster Shell Powder) and agricultural Gypsum (both available at Home Depot, BTW) you'd add these minerals by the same volume but you'd still only use 1 cup of however a diverse mix you might come up with.
Glacial Rock Dust is different and its application rate is 4 cups to 1 c.f. of potting soil irrespective of the other minerals you decide to go with.

All the amounts above on all of the mixes are for 1 c.f. of potting soil or 7.5 gallons (allegedly)."

 

[funkybud]

COSMIC SURFER; there is a total of 10 parts in lc's mix #1. you would fill the 3 qt saucepan 10 times, to equal 30 quarts.[5 pans of peat,3 pans of perlite,2 pans of ewc]. 30 quarts divided by 4[quarts to a gallon] would be 7.5[approx]gallons of mix,or 1 cubic foot. to that you would add the nutes and lime.
hope that helps you,not confuses you more.

 

[Cosmic Surfer]

cool, but explain the nutes part to me (I use the #2 mix btw). Interpret it by the gallon and you get like a cup you add per 20 parts. Interpret it the other way and you are adding like 40 cups, more nutes than soil!!! that can't be right!

 

[Swayze]

cool, but explain the nutes part to me (I use the #2 mix btw). Interpret it by the gallon and you get like a cup you add per 20 parts. Interpret it the other way and you are adding like 40 cups, more nutes than soil!!! that can't be right!

It's not right. You're not going to be adding 40 cups of nutrients to a cubic foot of soil and it's sounds like you've already added your nutrients to the soil at the 1/2 - 1 Cup recommendations. Waktoo is throwing out some good info. It's becomes easy once you understand that you don't need exotic things in your soil. I thought the same way, and I'm still trying to get rid of the guano I thought I needed. So don't worry, you don't need to go back to the hydrostore and get some seabird guano. Here's the last soil mix i made recently:

5 gallons of soil per container

1/3 Alaska Peat
1/3 Pumice/Rice Hulls
1/3 Compost/EWC

Food Mix
- 1 Cup Alfalfa Meal
- 1/4 Cup Veg Guano (3:1 N) **
- 1/4 Cup Flower Guano (3:1 P:N) **

Fix-it Mix
- 1/4 Cup Kelp
- 1/4 Cup Neem Meal
- 1/4 Cup Karanja Meal
- 1/4 Cup Crab Meal

Mineral Mix
- 1/8 Cup Gypsum
- 3/8 Cup Azomite
- 1/2 Cup Oyster Shell Powder
- 2.5 Cups Glacial Rock Dust

** I'm going to end up adding Fishbone Meal in place of the guanos once they run out. Much cheaper and cleaner.

Hope some of that helps. This forum has a lot of information and recipes and can get overwhelming sometimes. Just look for the easiest and add your own touch.