organics and pH. and lime

[canna woop!]

\ My mix is dolomite lime .garden lime. gypsum. oyster shell .fish meal .bone meal.azomite .greensand.

something comes to mind. with that much lime/calcium, as well as azomite and green sand, and %30 perlite. you could be looking at a compaction issue. does the soil clump together? does a shovel go deep into the soil or not? if it is clumping and the shovel doesnt go down then it could be compaction due to the sand/clay/perlite/lime combo. like timbuktu suggests, adding more "food" for the worms such as plant materials, coco, etc. could bring more nutrition to the soil. just 1 idea

 

[bigshrimp]

Another thing that stood out in your mix was greensand as a solo potassium amendment.

Greensand takes some time to breakdown and become available- you may be seeing a K def.

Look up some examples of that and get back to us.

 

[bigshrimp]

Does this make sense to anybody else - i dont want to send this guy on a wild goose chase...

 

[xmobotx]

while K is a cation & lack of it could contribute to this problem, K is also fairly plentiful. You're right that he has a dearth of K amendments and that the greensand is slow to give it up. But it will likely be a small-ish component of the problem. ~though it probably is part

 

[bigshrimp]

Idk it doesn't seem to add up. He limed at the appropriate proportions, has other diversified calcium ammendments. I suppose 50/30/20 peat/aeration/compost is a little heavy on the peat side but enough to make ph drop with all that Ca++?

 

[rasputin]

Maina, be careful trying to lime your soil based on pH. It's not telling the whole story of what is wrong with your soil, it's just tipping you off that something is wrong.

I don't mess with pH, haven't had to, but such a low pH reading, 4.5, would seem to indicate a low soil CEC. The two go hand in hand, acidifying soils have decreasing CEC. Problem is, you don't seem to know what is causing your soil, which you say has previously worked just fine, to acidify.

That is what you need to figure out before you just go adding back calcium and magnesium, which your soil might not even need - not to mention the issues with adding excess magnesium which is what dolomitic lime is doing to your soil - to fix a magic number that really doesn't mean shit. You're treating the symptom, not the cause. Your dirt is likely lacking food but let's start from the top first.

Base mix: perilite 33 % compost loam 20% peat 47%
Amendments: dolomite lime .garden lime. gypsum. oyster shell .fish meal .bone meal.azomite .greensand.

What amounts of each amendment did you add per cu ft or gallon?

As an aside, I gotta say... dolomitic lime is completely unnecessary. Ditch the stuff or save it for your lawn. It has no place in a garden, organic or otherwise.

 

[VortexPower420]

Rasputin knows whats up..... Ditch the dolo and pH is not all it is cracked up to be.

I am curious Rasputin how do you relate lowering CEC to acidifying soil. I was under the impression that a more acidic soil just means more H ions on the Colloid. I see how having a very low pH will start to shred the clay apart and release more Al and other heavy metals, while lowering the CEC because of the change in the structure the clay. But I am unsure what you mean by they go hand in hand, could you explain.

Maina- I was thinking about it and your "lockout", while I guess you could use that term is more likely and Al and heavy metal toxicity from the amount of H ions you have floating around breaking down the clays in your soil. just a thought on semantics.

timbuktu

 

[Maina]

You may have something there on clay I did add loam with compost.but the mix is very light.every amendment is 1 table spoon per gallon of mix . I'm really thinking I can't be dropping any more new plants in this mix.I like the idea of spreading it out in the spring for a few months and level out.I'm going to by a pallet of pro mix that's at 6.5 pH . Now guys I will add gypsum oyster shell and what for lime ? Why no dolomite ? Isn't it good for mag. ?

 

[VortexPower420]

NO DOLOMITE...... The Ca:Mg is way to high. You should get enough from the Greensand and compost. If you need more Mg for any reason a sul-po-mag drench or a foliar with some epsom salts will fix you right up. Or include some Crab shell, between the greensand and Carb you will be set for Mg)

What I used for the Ca component is this...1 tlbs of each per gal of mix Gypsum, oyster shell flour, Cal-phos, Crab shell and Carbonatite but that is just me I like to load the soil with Ca.

To fill the colloids on peat I would follow the rule of 1/2 cup to cu. FT if I am not mistaken. It is suggested that you mix up sources any combination of what I have about or some thing at least 20% Ca and little or no Mg is what you are looking for.(Gypsum, Hi cal lime (Garden Lime?) and Oyster shell flour, or Gypsum, Crab shell (source of Mg) and cal-phos)

TImbuktu

 

[Maina]

You say that there is way to much mag in dolomite lime? Is that mag. 100% available Is that the problem? Does it cause Lock outs ?

 

[MileHighGuy]

High CEC is the safety net for any issues you might be having. In my opinion the fastest way to cure such a large batch of soil would be lot's of compost tea and topdressing along with mulch.

Simple and proper compost tea while you top dress with some worm castings, compost, comfrey, whatever you have and then put straw over the top.

The fact that your PH is so low with all of those minerals in the mix would really have me looking at fermentation in the soil as a possible suspect. Fermentation would eat the oxygen and lower the ph etc. If the soil isn't to moist and weird than I would next suspect The compost wasn't finished or there isn't enough compost in the mix etc.

From, "The Ideal Soil: A Handbook for The New Agriculture"

As a rule, don’t use Dolomite lime, regardless of what you may have read in various gardening books, unless you are sure that you need Magnesium. Dolomite is a high Magnesium limestone. Using dolomite will tighten the soil, reducing air in the soil and inducing anaerobic alcohol fermentation or even formaldehyde preservation of organic matter rather than aerobic decomposition.

It's still a little-known fact that the Calcium to Magnesium ratio determines how tight or loose a soil is. The more Calcium a soil has, the looser it is; the more Magnesium, the tighter it is, up to a point. Other things being equal, a high Calcium soil will have more Oxygen, drain more freely, and support more aerobic breakdown of organic matter, while a high Magnesium soil will have less Oxygen, tend to drain slowly, and organic matter will break down poorly if at all. In a soil with Magnesium higher than Calcium, organic matter may ferment and produce alcohol and even formaldehyde, both of which are preservatives. If you till up last years corn stalks and they are still shiny and green, you may have a soil with an inverted Calcium/Magnesium ratio. On the other hand, if you get the Calcium level too high, the soil will lose all its beneficial granulation and structure and the excessive Calcium will interfere with the availability of other nutrients. If you get them just right for your particular soil, you can drive over the garden and not have a problem with soil compaction.

Just speculation without digging into that soil though.... Bummer on such a large project.

 

[SpicySativa]

Oh yea perilite 33 % compost loam 20% peat 47%

I think you will have better results if you...

1) Switch out the "compost loam" for pure, fresh compost or worm castings. Loam is a mixture of roughly equal parts sand, silt, and clay. "Compost loam" is some arbitrary mixture of loam and compost (likely poor quality compost considering it's not sold as a standalone product). The fact that your soil isn't stabilizing at a nice neutral pH tells me it's lacking humus and lacking healthy microbiology. Proper compost has a high CEC, lots of calcium, and works wonders for stabilizing soil pH.

2) Add a potassium source like kelp meal. Potassium is one of the "base cations", meaning it's presence tends to raise pH by replacing hydrogen ions at cation exchange sites.

I add dolomite lime and oyster shell one time when I first mix a batch of soil (1-2 TBSP/gal), then RARELY add any extra when I recycle my soil. The pH remains neutral primarily because of the humus and biological activity (bacteria produce extra-cellular substances that raise pH).

 

[waktoo]

I never want to go threw what I just did again ever. It cost me thousands of dollars . I want my self and others to give input into this. There are a few ways to bring soil pH up . There is good bad and don't do that. What I see a lot of lime takes 3 months or more to stabilize The pH let's say to 6.5. I never herd that .it was always cook your soil 3-4 weeks and add your lime 1-2 table spoons per gallon mix and you got it.well sometimes it goes like that. Kinda hard to pile up soil for 3 months . It seems dolomite has it all cal. Mag. Its already 7.0 but it takes months for it to work.oystet shell months. It would seem they would be great buffers. So now we are down to what powder garden lime .faster acting yes but how much to add. If you know the pH of your peat is 4.5 how much to add per gallon of peat? If you go high dollar pro-mix that's 6.5 I would think dolomite and gypsum would be the way to go. Now let's say pH is 4.5 and you have your buffers in there dolomite . Oyster shell . and the garden lime to bring it up faster .and it gets you to that pH you need . Can you ever end up adding to much cal. To your soil and getting lock out ? With organics they say never pH your bottled plant food . I get that. But you really need the soil pH right to stay away from lock outs even in organics don't you ? Because I just saw a lot of lock out because of low pH and it was not fun to look at or have happen. Please any one with good info please add on .

Might I suggest having your soil tested by a lab? Then there's no guessing as to what the problem actually is. Lots of good talk on CEC here!

Logan Labs does soil testing based on base saturation %'s of CEC for something like 20$. If you read the book mentioned in MHG's post, it will teach you how to read and interpret said soil reports, and then figure how to amend your soil for optimum CEC ratios and balanced soil mineralogy.

Sounds like you produce for the medical community. Learning how to do this will save you TONS of money every year, because you won't have to mix up/use fresh batches of soil every crop. Test before use. Test after use. You know EXACTLY what nutrients were used for the grow, and can then determine whether or not the soil needs re-amended before reuse. This is the ULTIMATE way to guarantee consistency of soil quality, and health. I'm surprised organic med' growers don't utilize it more often. "Organic" reg's?

 

[MileHighGuy]

waktoo.

Good Post.

With that much soil... A soil test is necessary for sure.

Why Guess?

Get a test done and then post the results here in a post... everyone will want to help.

 

[xmobotx]

I believe an effective recipe could be formulated after a few tests & you would need to test only when problems arose. Many of us have grown for years w/ minimal problems & testing is mostly a means to "iron out the bugs" so to speak ~lol

 

[Maina]

Soil test yes! That works .$20 bucks cheap OK .now the books ? The two that are posted ? I will post the test this should help a lot of people. Med. Grower yes I am

 

[waktoo]

Am I allowed to post a link to Michael Astera's website, the author of the book (books?) "The Ideal Soil: ..."? I also have a link to Logan Labs.

 

[Weird]

I came in to post have your soil tested

but also to help diagnose why if everything is the same are the results different can I ask

did you change source on any components, buy from a new lot or perhaps the company(s) involved changed without you knowing?

 

[Maina]

I'm calling lab in the morning.I'm going to have soil test and water test. Thanks chances of eBook not good I'm thinking. I can't test the stuff I put in soil its gone

 

[Maina]

There was 2 books