organics and pH. and lime

[Maina]

I never want to go threw what I just did again ever. It cost me thousands of dollars . I want my self and others to give input into this. There are a few ways to bring soil pH up . There is good bad and don't do that. What I see a lot of lime takes 3 months or more to stabilize The pH let's say to 6.5. I never herd that .it was always cook your soil 3-4 weeks and add your lime 1-2 table spoons per gallon mix and you got it.well sometimes it goes like that. Kinda hard to pile up soil for 3 months . It seems dolomite has it all cal. Mag. Its already 7.0 but it takes months for it to work.oystet shell months. It would seem they would be great buffers. So now we are down to what powder garden lime .faster acting yes but how much to add. If you know the pH of your peat is 4.5 how much to add per gallon of peat? If you go high dollar pro-mix that's 6.5 I would think dolomite and gypsum would be the way to go. Now let's say pH is 4.5 and you have your buffers in there dolomite . Oyster shell . and the garden lime to bring it up faster .and it gets you to that pH you need . Can you ever end up adding to much cal. To your soil and getting lock out ? With organics they say never pH your bottled plant food . I get that. But you really need the soil pH right to stay away from lock outs even in organics don't you ? Because I just saw a lot of lock out because of low pH and it was not fun to look at or have happen. Please any one with good info please add on .

 

[canna woop!]

Hi there buddy! So, I am wondering how did all this cost you? Did you not add enough lime to a. Batch of soil and this has a negative impact on yield?

I am not a expert, still I can add the way I see it if I may, the lime is really useful when. The base ingredient to soil are added, I will sometimes just mix it up and pour handfuls of lime until I am satisfied with the way the soil crumbles when. I mix it with the shovel, the rough ratio of two to three cups per cubic foot would sound about right for peat, I am transitioning toward more coco husks than peat, as well as using Malibu compost- a rough ratio of 1 cup lime and one cup gypsum worked well for this mixture after I added the other amendments.

Not sure if that answers your qquestion I am interested in this topic and will check back later for more info about thus, woop

 

[xmobotx]

I've seen many growers have good effect from the 3 part mix of 1 pt dolo, 1pt gypsum &, 2 pts oyster flour combined & added @ 2 TBS/gallon of mix {typically added to a mix of 1pt EWC/compost, 1pt drainage & 2pts peat}

lots of Ca is a good idea ~I'm sure you could overdo it but they say plants will grow in straight cal-phos so maybe not

 

[Maina]

I mixed Up 6,000 gallons of organic mix same mix I have run the last 3 years. Always worked. Not this time pH started at 4.5 and I did the mix let it cook like 4 weeks planted a round and did another the next week had a few problems in veg but did foiler feeding and fixed things each time. Some leaf twisting but not bad.but when flower hit budding just wasn't going. I kept telling myself it will be OK. I had to leave town the last three weeks came home and nothing had to toss the round loss 6-10 lb. So I dug out my blue lad Digital soil pH meter And pH the pots 5.5 . Then cheaked the soil that had veg. Plants in it 5.5 . So I couldn't let this happen to me again. I was able to change soil pH of all the poted plants with h lime. It took over a week to find what would work. .6 grames of h lime for every 2 gallons of soil and 10% water per volume Would bring pH up 1.0 every time spot on.plants never got burnt or harmed.now all plants in the 5.5 soil are now at 6.5 . I really should have had 1 part dolomite 1 part oyster shell and 2 parts garden lime . And 2 table spoons per gallon of soil in straight peat that's at 4.5 will be the way to go . And if shit hits the fan I can bump it with h lime. But it seems to me if you go with the high end mix that's already at 6.5 you are really Limited To the amount of cal,/ lime you can put into your mix because you really don't want to change your pH if its already at 6.5 right? And you guys are saying you really can't get pH lock out with to much Cal. ?

 

[Maina]

I love organics and will never leave it . But even in organics you can still kill shit. Killing a closet grow hurts killing 20-30 thousand Dollars worth of meds for patients That hurt times two. I really don't want anyone to have to go threw this. If this thread helps others and myself awsome

 

[xmobotx]

those sound like valid points. maybe you could better quantify them? like, what is the mix you've been following all this time that let you down now? I don;t understand either why you say your grow was trashed then say you adjusted pH w/o hurting the plants? It just kinda seems like the un-said is beckoning here?

when I say how I read that plants would grow in straight cal-phos, that is just something of a benchmark. plants would probably look pretty rough in that imbalanced of a media. It's just to say not to be too concerned about applying Ca amendments.

Your best approach is something where you get Ca from a few sources like fish bone meal & crab meal in addition to your "lime" amendments.

a good seedling mix can be done mixing your EWC/peat/drainage then just crab meal alone as your "lime"

 

[Maina]

I have 4 rooms going they are like 30 days apart . One room was the first to get the mix then 30 days in another room got the mix .when the first room was at 8 weeks I pulled it and threw it , I will kef some of it. But the second room was just starting veg 4 weeks in and they where twisted up but I was thinking maybe the mix was hot . It was the pH. But plants where in the soil so I hit them with h lime and they came up to 6.5 . My mix is dolomite lime .garden lime. gypsum. oyster shell .fish meal .bone meal.azomite .greensand.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i think it probably depends on how much peat you have in your mix.
i use straight unamended peat at 30% in my mix and i have successfully added powdered dolomite at 5g per litre of soil which i guess is about 20g per gallon.

powdered limes will work very quickly to neutralize acid - i never cook my soil for more than a few days.

other things to keep in mind are that many other amendments are liming agents in themselves such as biochar, bonemeal, rock phosphate etc - so if you are re-amending with these then you need to keep that in mind.

afaik, garden lime will increase pH below 7 if there is enough of it.
dolomite lime will only increase your pH as far as 7 unless you use way too much
gypsum will add calcium (as well as sulphur) but not increase pH in the same way as lime.

for many years i used just dolomite very successfuly but now i use half dolomite and half gypsum - between them 5g per litre.... i realised the pH of my mix was too high (after a few rounds of re-amendments) rather than too low like yours.

try and use bulk ingredients that are consistent and then you will be able to dial your mix better. if the peat you are using is wildly acidic then you might be better going for the pro mix and paying the extra rather than messing up whole grows.

the pH/alkalinity of your water supply is something to be aware of and take into account too

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

also, i should ask, how are you measuring the pH of your medium?

measuring the run-off doesnt tell you the pH of your medium... you need to mix some soil with distilled water and then pH that. it's not hugely accurate but im told that is the best way.

are you adding liquid ferts with your waterings?

VG

 

[VortexPower420]

I feel that looking at it in terms of pH is the wrong way to look at it. I look at it as a lack of nutrition in the soil. Your soil colloids are loaded with to much exchangeable H and not enough Ca.

Looking at you mix I notice very little in the way of Ca additions. You have proved this point by using hydrated lime to "raise" you pH. What was really happening is you were adding alot of CaO, a very reactive Ca source. You figured out the right amount to push the H ions off and add alot of Ca ions.

Me personally I would never use Hydrated lime, to caustic and mainly used to make cement. If it worked for you this time great but Gypsum would have the same effect. I would use 1 tlbs/gal as a top dress and water in heavily with a VC slurry or a good humic acid supplement.

I personally love gypsum for many reasons. The addition of a fact acting Ca source as well as a healthy dose of S.

The reason gypsum does not change you pH is because when you use it the Ca attaches to your exchange sites and the S breaks off some of the lower cations (Mg, K, Na in that order). That leads me to the second reason to use gypsum. If you think you have to much Mg you can use gypsum to better balance you ratios of cations.

Or another Ca boost could come from one of my other favorites Cal-phos (SRP). At 20% Ca it is a formidable Ca contender and with it is in a colloidal clay. It also has 3% available P and 17% P as a slow release. Seeing it is a clay you can take 1/2 to 1 cup in 5 gals stir stir stir until it is all suspended in the water and just water as usual. Shoot for about 1 tlbs per gal of soil. You could also top dress at the same rate. Again I would add some humics to this. You will also up the CEC of your soil a little by adding SRP.

I am a strong believer that you can not have to much Ca in your mix (with in reason). Ca is the nutrient that makes all the rest work. It is the communicator in the soil and the plant. I carries other nutrients in the plant and lead to good soil structure. When you have enough to ample in your soil everything works much better.

Ditch the dolomite, it is better suited for railroad ballast then agricultural uses. It has very very little reactivity in the soil. I has the wrong hardness, cleavage and solubility. Way to much Mg.

Lately I have not been adding anything with the thought of adding Mg to my soil. I know it will come from many places (greensand, Crab shell, compost/worm castings and plant sources) but that is just me. I feel it I ever need Mg I can get it from some sul-po-mag or epsom salts.

Here is a link to some info on Ca Carbonate, I know it is a company fact sheet but it is concise and accurate as far as Ca goes. I also Highly recommend this product to everyone. Carbonatite is the Shit.
http://www.borealagrominerals.com/uploads/2/2/1/4/2214955/fact_sheet_-_calcium_carbonate.pdf

Timbuktu

 

[VerdantGreen]

I feel that looking at it in terms of pH is the wrong way to look at it. I look at it as a lack of nutrition in the soil. Your soil colloids are loaded with to much exchangeable H and not enough Ca.

Looking at you mix I notice very little in the way of Ca additions. You have proved this point by using hydrated lime to "raise" you pH. What was really happening is you were adding alot of CaO, a very reactive Ca source. You figured out the right amount to push the H ions off and add alot of Ca ions.

....

its a good post vortex but surely with the above you are just talking about pH but not actually mentioning pH ?

why? pH is only a measure of the hydrogen ion activity. why should it be taboo?

 

[bigshrimp]

My mix is dolomite lime .garden lime. gypsum. oyster shell .fish meal .bone meal.azomite .greensand.

This is a alot of calcium all added together. You should not be experiencing liming problems.

This was your original mix that gave you problems?

 

[VortexPower420]

its a good post vortex but surely with the above you are just talking about pH but not actually mentioning pH ?

why? pH is only a measure of the hydrogen ion activity. why should it be taboo?

I guess not taboo but not as important as it is in a chem grow. If you have a low pH you could extrapolate that you have a lack of one of the other cations. Mainly Ca. That is why most liming agents are Ca sources.

I want to know my pCa, pMg, pK and pNa, they lead to a better understanding of what is going on in your soil. If you have a pH of 6.5 you know about 10% of you cations are H.

You could push you pH way to high if you add to much Na. Na has alot more effect on pH then Ca, Mg or K. With this in mind is why I say pH is just a sign of lack of nutrition and pH is not a reliable test of how well you soil will work..

I know not many use Na additions but it is a good example of why pH is not a good gauge in a living soil. This is why I speak little of pH, understaning why your pH might be low is much more important.

A soil test to understand you base cations would be much more effective. Or you could just load on the Ca and not worry about pH to much.

Just my thoughts.

Timbuktu

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

I just read an easy way to test for high alkalinity in soil. It doesn't give a precise measurement but it will tell you if your soil alkalinity is too high.

Basically just take a cup of your soil and pour some white vinegar thru it. If it fizzes your alkalinity is too high.

Im going to try this late on today.

 

[VerdantGreen]

fair points again but i think pH is a very useful measurement in gardening. as a professional gardener/garden designer, the first two things i need to know about the soil in a garden are its drainage properties and it's pH. if i know these two things i can know with 90% accuracy which plants will grow happily there.

VG

I guess not taboo but not as important as it is in a chem grow. If you have a low pH you could extrapolate that you have a lack of one of the other cations. Mainly Ca. That is why most liming agents are Ca sources.

I want to know my pCa, pMg, pK and pNa, they lead to a better understanding of what is going on in your soil. If you have a pH of 6.5 you know about 10% of you cations are H.

You could push you pH way to high if you add to much Na. Na has alot more effect on pH then Ca, Mg or K. With this in mind is why I say pH is just a sign of lack of nutrition and pH is not a reliable test of how well you soil will work..

I know not many use Na additions but it is a good example of why pH is not a good gauge in a living soil. This is why I speak little of pH, understaning why your pH might be low is much more important.

A soil test to understand you base cations would be much more effective. Or you could just load on the Ca and not worry about pH to much.

Just my thoughts.

Timbuktu

 

[Maina]

This is a alot of calcium all added together. You should not be experiencing liming problems.

This was your original mix that gave you problems?

yea same mix all the time

 

[Maina]

I have a blue lab soil pH meter and I calibrate it every time I use it

 

[Maina]

Oh yea perilite 33 % compost loam 20% peat 47%

 

[Maina]

So garden lime will Bring up pH to just bellow 7 pH ? And bolomite up to 7 pH ? And h lime up to 14 pH lol !

 

[canna woop!]

it's hard to imagine what the issue with your batch is. I would think if you scatter it outside it would improve over time.