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Black ash with organics
- Thread starter 2bags
- Start date
Hence why I said it was N and to flush .... been there and every other element over/under fed
When you say outdoors are they in pots or in the ground
MJ will suck up every bit of nutrient it can, the plant is doing it's job as it tries to produce the most viable seeds it can .... the fact you've stopped it 'mid growth' and now want it to finish so you can smoke it is not what its genes say to do
The water cure sorting it is the proof
The yellow leaves is because the plant used that up first, the problem is that there is still lots left in the buds
Flushing in soil is a delicate but simple process, if the plants are in the ground there's not a lot you can do ...... if they're in pots then you need to give them as much water as possible for at least a week
The soil on the ganja farm in Jamaica is depleted by each crop, most commercial grows for smoking weed come from poor quality soil areas
You are growing in top quality soil, it may well be that 'soil' is so good that watering = feeding
There is no point in comparing other plants, like tomatoes or tobacco, both of which are allowed to complete their life cycle until we want them .... they're not even vaguely related to cannabis
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No. none of this is applicable organics. Everything I said in my post is accurate and nothing in this post or; the 1 following it is accurate:
As pointed out so many times by experienced growers, an attempt to "flush" {which is a total misnomer & doesn;t even happen the way people think they understand it} will cause an over-saturated condition resulting in the death of soil micro-life & problems w/ the rhizosphere/plant roots
Think about recycling soil ~especially no-till recycling. If one harvests a finished plant & immediately transplants a new seedling w/o "feeding" in any form & then that plant grows out to harvest w/o a re-amend; how is the concept of flushing anything more than a myth.
The facts are that for the entire time I've been visiting this forum, there have been people attempting to dispel myths such as "flushing" & there seems to just be clown after clown coming out of the shadows bent on un-doing their efforts.
If you believe what you're saying, you are following some soluble nute paradigm {NPK myth} or you've had a bad experience w/ organics from something like sub-cools "recipe" {heavy feeder myth}
Keep it Clean!
As pointed out so many times by experienced growers, an attempt to "flush" {which is a total misnomer & doesn;t even happen the way people think they understand it} will cause an over-saturated condition resulting in the death of soil micro-life & problems w/ the rhizosphere/plant roots
Think about recycling soil ~especially no-till recycling. If one harvests a finished plant & immediately transplants a new seedling w/o "feeding" in any form & then that plant grows out to harvest w/o a re-amend; how is the concept of flushing anything more than a myth.
The facts are that for the entire time I've been visiting this forum, there have been people attempting to dispel myths such as "flushing" & there seems to just be clown after clown coming out of the shadows bent on un-doing their efforts.
If you believe what you're saying, you are following some soluble nute paradigm {NPK myth} or you've had a bad experience w/ organics from something like sub-cools "recipe" {heavy feeder myth}
2bags
Member
Hi xmobotx
Soil is organically certified. No dry amendments or liquid feed. Rainwater throughout.
If organics can't be flushed and the plants yellowed out from using all the N in the soil, any idea why it's burning black?
I don't want to get into a whether flushing is beneficial in organics debate. I want to try and find out why I am getting black ash from organic soil.
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what's in the soil then? it would seem like you my prefer another resource for your soil supply.
also, is there a taste or quality to the smoke you don;t like? ~besides the black ash issue?
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Too much food be it npk or all the other bits.After 7 or 8 years growing organics i can say with out a doubt. You have to get the right amount of nutrients{blanced in proper amounts} to have a healthy plant all the way through till they start using whats in there leaves to finish up there work. It is simple and folks that say a black ash is this or that it is too much food period npk all of it! I have done and experimented. It is a combination of light strength food and plant size. If you let the plant use up what in the soil and in its leaves the ash come out white the bud burns clean. If you dont find the right amount of food for the plant, it comes out darker or black. Still if you are over ferts a bit say,the stuff closest to the light might come out burning ok but as soon as you get away from the light things do not use up what you have given them and it stays in the bud. It is not flushing with organics it is the total amount of all of the the nutrients for the total amount of time. The proof is in the end product. This is a funny topic for some reason. I have my own experiences with this and it took my 2 or 3 years to suss. black is too much bottom line.
Attachments
In the cigar world, the color of ash has everything to do with minerals in the soil and very little about quality.
From the "cigar adviser" http://www.cigaradvisor.com/articles/cigars-101/smoking/who-cares-about-your-ash
When I was back in the customer service department, I would receive an occasional customer call insisting their cigars were bad. In fact, they were always the worst cigars the customer ever tasted. No, even worse; they were so bad, they would make people violently ill to the point where hospitalization would be the only means of full recovery, and even still, that person would have to undergo decades of psychiatric therapy to free his mind of all the horrors the cigars had on his life. Of course I never believed these flamboyant claims; and trust me, I actually received calls just like this. But like a good employee, I pried into why they were the worst cigars in the world since that was my job. Nine times out of ten, the answer would be because the ash color was black instead of white.
Again, I seriously had people call and give me stories like these. The flashback to the dark days in the call center actually came to mind when I was speaking to a cigar blogger over the weekend named Peter. The issue came up since I was smoking a Cusano 18 and the ash was relatively dark, and I pointed it out to him. His reaction was as normal as the sun is bright; he slapped me on the back of the head and told me to stop whining. He was right though, I shouldn’t be complaining about a dark ash. There is no reason to considering ash color as an indication of the taste of a cigar. Ash color is perhaps the most insignificant thing you can analyze when smoking a cigar.
Let me explain: Ash color only has to do with the levels of magnesium contained in the tobacco leaves. The lighter the cigar ash, the more magnesium there is and the opposite is true of darker cigar ash. However, the level difference is so minimal in the cigar, it is nowhere near noticeable on your palate. Instead of looking at color, look at the overall ash quality. This tells the story of your whole cigar as you puff through it. Say your cigar ash is flaky. This usually means that you are smoking a short filler and it can become a nuisance since the ash will most likely break off constantly. If this is the case, don’t smoke and drive without a Road Warrior Ash Can. Also, if the cigar splits in the middle, this usually means the middle is not keeping pace with the perimeter of the cigar. When the wrapper is burning faster than the filler and binder, this is a caustic burn issue and can alter the flavor of the smoke, so you will not taste the blend the manufacturer intended. To fix this, just stop puffing for a few minutes so the inside can catch up.
If you really want to analyze the ash on your cigar to ensure a quality cigar, do not look at the ash color. It is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Instead, pay close attention to how the ash splits and breaks off as you smoke in order to better analyze the quality of your burn. After all, the quality of the burn is what really defines the flavor of the cigar.
Cigar ash colors and associated minerals:
magnesium = white ash (the whiter it is--the more magnesium)
calcium = lighter color ash (chief element in cigar ash)
potassium = darker color for domestic, but white for cuban cigars
equal amounts of minerals = grey streaked with white veins
Hmmmm, I think overdose in ferts, particularly potassium is the primary culprit for dark ash in our world, after all--potassium phosphate is 0-50-30 (found in: Beasty Bloom, Cha-Ching, Moab, etc).
My $0.02, cheers!
From the "cigar adviser" http://www.cigaradvisor.com/articles/cigars-101/smoking/who-cares-about-your-ash
When I was back in the customer service department, I would receive an occasional customer call insisting their cigars were bad. In fact, they were always the worst cigars the customer ever tasted. No, even worse; they were so bad, they would make people violently ill to the point where hospitalization would be the only means of full recovery, and even still, that person would have to undergo decades of psychiatric therapy to free his mind of all the horrors the cigars had on his life. Of course I never believed these flamboyant claims; and trust me, I actually received calls just like this. But like a good employee, I pried into why they were the worst cigars in the world since that was my job. Nine times out of ten, the answer would be because the ash color was black instead of white.
Again, I seriously had people call and give me stories like these. The flashback to the dark days in the call center actually came to mind when I was speaking to a cigar blogger over the weekend named Peter. The issue came up since I was smoking a Cusano 18 and the ash was relatively dark, and I pointed it out to him. His reaction was as normal as the sun is bright; he slapped me on the back of the head and told me to stop whining. He was right though, I shouldn’t be complaining about a dark ash. There is no reason to considering ash color as an indication of the taste of a cigar. Ash color is perhaps the most insignificant thing you can analyze when smoking a cigar.
Let me explain: Ash color only has to do with the levels of magnesium contained in the tobacco leaves. The lighter the cigar ash, the more magnesium there is and the opposite is true of darker cigar ash. However, the level difference is so minimal in the cigar, it is nowhere near noticeable on your palate. Instead of looking at color, look at the overall ash quality. This tells the story of your whole cigar as you puff through it. Say your cigar ash is flaky. This usually means that you are smoking a short filler and it can become a nuisance since the ash will most likely break off constantly. If this is the case, don’t smoke and drive without a Road Warrior Ash Can. Also, if the cigar splits in the middle, this usually means the middle is not keeping pace with the perimeter of the cigar. When the wrapper is burning faster than the filler and binder, this is a caustic burn issue and can alter the flavor of the smoke, so you will not taste the blend the manufacturer intended. To fix this, just stop puffing for a few minutes so the inside can catch up.
If you really want to analyze the ash on your cigar to ensure a quality cigar, do not look at the ash color. It is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Instead, pay close attention to how the ash splits and breaks off as you smoke in order to better analyze the quality of your burn. After all, the quality of the burn is what really defines the flavor of the cigar.
Cigar ash colors and associated minerals:
magnesium = white ash (the whiter it is--the more magnesium)
calcium = lighter color ash (chief element in cigar ash)
potassium = darker color for domestic, but white for cuban cigars
equal amounts of minerals = grey streaked with white veins
Hmmmm, I think overdose in ferts, particularly potassium is the primary culprit for dark ash in our world, after all--potassium phosphate is 0-50-30 (found in: Beasty Bloom, Cha-Ching, Moab, etc).
My $0.02, cheers!
2bags
Member
Hi eclipse. I have heard this to be the case with cigars, but I wonder why the ash burns white after a water cure. This makes me think it is something left in the bud rather than a lack of Mg.
But I will experiment with higher Mg and see if that helps.
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A
AlterEgo860
shit as long as I slowly dry my herbs and flush properly.. I get white ash before I even cure.. after the cure its even tastier and smoother.. but shit ive also noticed that shit that was picked early.. even if flushed.. didn't burn correctly.
Hahaha water cure, its been years. My theory on water cure is centered around the decrease in weight (about 10-15% has been my experience). Water, a great solvent, is pulling out the excess minerals...and leaving behind rather "clean" vegetative matter--that when smoked turns into extremely white ash. Which kinda makes sense, as water cured herb has almost zero flavor and aroma--so no minerals.
To prove my theory would require capturing the water and having it analyzed for mineral content. But, since I am not a rich man--someone else can do it.
Good point man, cheers!
To prove my theory would require capturing the water and having it analyzed for mineral content. But, since I am not a rich man--someone else can do it.
Good point man, cheers!
It is the balance. Maybe you had the right amount of N but too much p or k and it is all a balancing game ph food light size of plants etc.. Just like you are seeing i have had yellowed off plants and still burnt black till i lowered the phos/potassium . Thats my experience, try for yourself and see if it works out for you. The book that taught me how to balance my soil was the Ideal soil by agricola and astera. It is a guide once you have things balanced you can start tailoring for the specific planty. The book taught me how to adjust my thinking and then it was just a matter of growing the plants with different mixes as per my best guess and then adjusting after the end product was able to be sampled. Microbes are super important in organic gardening they are like the spark for the fire so to speak. This is a huge subject and to understand it fully may be a life time job. The difference between minerals in our veggies and our cannabis is this. We dont smoke our veggies we eat them for the minerals to use in our bodies. So When you are smoking cannabis and have minerals in it it burns harsh and black, thats not enjoyable. So the trick is to give them enough of the right minerals etc to get them to the point where they start to fade{senescence} naturally and let them do there thing. It may take a few runs to tune things in. Keep track of what you add to your soil so you know how to adjust. Kushes and sativas those are the two mixes i use. I find the kush eat much less then a longer flowering haze or liamba. But i have grown super silver haze and a few others that where more like the kushes in feed depo. trial error and understanding where you are going. keep asking questions dont be afraid to fail.It is how we all learn. Just keep a open mind. just a side note. Some sources of nitrogen and phos/potassium are long or fast acting important to remember this. peace
ps enjoyed the cigar bit eclipse...
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i never said, 'no such thing as over-fert w/ amended soil':
if you grow in an over-fert mix such as any kind of flushing might make any kind of sense, you're going to grow shit anyway. It's going to have problems & you'll be lucky to get a harvest @ all
this isn't my "opinion" it's actually botanical science {as opposed to the myth-based crap from the marijuana grower's books}
WTF are you going to flush out? how about the Ca Mg or K that's tied to CEC sites in the "soil?" what's going to replace it? H?
I fully understand what you;re talking about.
if you think you need to flush a properly amended organic mix, you're doing it wrong. flushing {if it worked like people seem to think it does ~it doesn't} would just be wasting excess nutrients, running them down the drain ~that never needed to be there in the 1st place.
maybe there's just nothing wrong w/ black ash in & of itself ~as long as no off flavors accompany it.
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Xmo,
Lets start a business together! We start off by selling 1 liter bottles of "fert stuff" (with cartoon characters on the label), then sell another liter bottle containing a "clearing agent" to remove "fert stuff" from the soil--for use about 2 weeks before harvest, then we sell one more liter bottle (3 bottles total) to remove the "clearing agent".
So...bottle #1 makes plants grow, bottle #2 removes traces of bottle #1, and bottle #3 cleans up bottle #2 residue. BTW, bottle #3 is harmonized, ionized, and angel touched H2O.
Cool business model, huh? LOL
Cheers man!
Lets start a business together! We start off by selling 1 liter bottles of "fert stuff" (with cartoon characters on the label), then sell another liter bottle containing a "clearing agent" to remove "fert stuff" from the soil--for use about 2 weeks before harvest, then we sell one more liter bottle (3 bottles total) to remove the "clearing agent".
So...bottle #1 makes plants grow, bottle #2 removes traces of bottle #1, and bottle #3 cleans up bottle #2 residue. BTW, bottle #3 is harmonized, ionized, and angel touched H2O.
Cool business model, huh? LOL
Cheers man!
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2bags
Member
Hi xmobotx, the problem in this case is the black ash is accompanied by a bad burn and consequent unsatisfying taste. No chem taste as such just not the taste one would normally experience when smoking bud that burns evenly, cleanly and that leaves a whiter ash.
1
it sounds like a great idea! are u sure no one's done it yet? maybe we could call it flush, flush
BTW, pure salt ferts screw up the soil so it can;t be re-used ~as does over-doing an organic mix.
That's the beauty of recycling, if 3 or 4 cycles down the road it still works, you;re doing something right
as can white ash. are you going to recycle your soil? i mean, i still don;t know what you're using or how it may be amended but, something like some {charged} charcoal might help here acting as a buffer & possibly absorbing whatever excess is giving you the off-taste {your actual problem}
charging char just means you soak it for a while in some N-rich amendment {so it doesn't "rob" N later in your mix} I got an off taste from a cycle in coco ~even though that coco is amended w/ char {and EWC/dry amendments a'la organic soil} ~I did notice the vigor of coco & the yield was noticably more ~just tasted funny {mostly white salt & pepper ash}
trying char might be a good way to see if it helps ~in fresh or recycled soil
I'd do the same even if I re-amended {but I would do EWC mulch w/ something like alfalfa or comfrey in the EWC mulch}
Yellow from the bottom means your N ratios were good, did you see signs of Potassium overdose?
Deficiencies in Mg and Ca would mean the ash would be less white (at least according to the cigar guy).
