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Heat issues with my stacked vertical setup.
- Thread starter FunkJungle
- Start date
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Last edited:
FunkJungle
Member
The last 2 nights have been much colder outside. I took my intake out of the window and plugged the hole with a couple trash bags. Temps didn't break 80 during lights on.
That's 2 nights now that intake #1 has been out of the window, and the temps are much cooler now in the flower room. Makes no sense to me. It is certainly a little cooler by the window even closed up the way it is, but nowhere near as cold as it has been outside at night the last couple weeks. And yet for some reason my high temps are much better. Temps in whole room the setup is in are still mid 70's. I don't get it, but I'm not complaining.
Still though my lights off temps in the flower room are about 60. Still a drop of 20 degrees which I would like to handle. So as long as my high temps stay where they are (maxed at 79 last night) I think I will hook up the thermostat controller/fan to intake 3 to add warm air during lights off.
That's 2 nights now that intake #1 has been out of the window, and the temps are much cooler now in the flower room. Makes no sense to me. It is certainly a little cooler by the window even closed up the way it is, but nowhere near as cold as it has been outside at night the last couple weeks. And yet for some reason my high temps are much better. Temps in whole room the setup is in are still mid 70's. I don't get it, but I'm not complaining.
Still though my lights off temps in the flower room are about 60. Still a drop of 20 degrees which I would like to handle. So as long as my high temps stay where they are (maxed at 79 last night) I think I will hook up the thermostat controller/fan to intake 3 to add warm air during lights off.
SirStynkalot
Member
Flat the issue with booster fans isnt that they're low cfm, it's that they're not designed to actually push that CFM if it's pushing still standing air. They burn out very quickly if you try and use them by themselves instead of to push along an already moving column of air. It's not a question of "is it good enough," it's that you're trying to mop a floor with a broom. Seriously, just search "booster fan" on this site and see what you come up with. Dozens of people try those because they look good, myself included at one point. We all say the same thing.
I can only tell this guy how to do a better job. If you want "just good enough" then by all means, don't calculate or regulate environmental variables. If growing pot's not that big a deal then it doesn't really matter.
If you want to do a professional job through you need to approach it a bit more scientifically. Plants need certain things at certain times in relatively set rates. The plant can only get as good as the most limiting variable allows, so if you're not dialing your environment in at some point you're going to not be able to increase quality and you're not going to understand why.
As an aside, if that fan were to work and there was no ducting attached to it AND there was a strong enough outtake fan then that would be about the correct CFM. Since there are bends for light proofing though in this box that one will be small - each 90 degree bend cuts air flow by about 60%, meaning you need a bigger fan. He could probably get up to 100 CFM with an 8" outtake fan, which would cover what, once per 3 min exchange? That's probably not good enough for dual 1000s inside a box that size, and even if it is it's usually better to go a bit overkill on fans and put in speed controllers.
I can only tell this guy how to do a better job. If you want "just good enough" then by all means, don't calculate or regulate environmental variables. If growing pot's not that big a deal then it doesn't really matter.
If you want to do a professional job through you need to approach it a bit more scientifically. Plants need certain things at certain times in relatively set rates. The plant can only get as good as the most limiting variable allows, so if you're not dialing your environment in at some point you're going to not be able to increase quality and you're not going to understand why.
As an aside, if that fan were to work and there was no ducting attached to it AND there was a strong enough outtake fan then that would be about the correct CFM. Since there are bends for light proofing though in this box that one will be small - each 90 degree bend cuts air flow by about 60%, meaning you need a bigger fan. He could probably get up to 100 CFM with an 8" outtake fan, which would cover what, once per 3 min exchange? That's probably not good enough for dual 1000s inside a box that size, and even if it is it's usually better to go a bit overkill on fans and put in speed controllers.
D
DHF
First off , 1 of the most important "cardinal rules" of indoor growing is to maintain lights on and lights off temps within a 10 degree variable....and why ?.....
Big differences during lights off when temps drop and humidity spikes causes condensation inside the grow area that promotes airborn pathogens , especially in late flower.....now....
Air exchange twice per minute will control your temps IF yas use an "active" intake as well as the exhaust/scrubber combo , and all yas gotta do is plug em in to cheap ass router/fan speed controllers and thermostats..simple..babyshit..and ....
As long as there`s a small muffin fan underneath the stacked bulbs on it`s lowest setting to gently assist natural rising heat convection , the exhaust/scrubber combo will constantly pull excess heat OUT of the room as fresh cooler air is constantly sucked in with an active intake......and hey.....
All this can be done from INSIDE the house with "ambient" temp air as long as fresh air is circulated IN the house 24/7/365......anyways...
Lotta brainstormin and opinions on howta do shit as optimal as possible , but the rules are the rules when growin inside guys.....
70% humidity till end of stretch and below 50 till Harvey , air exchange twice per minute OR sealed with CO2 , a/c and dehuey , room temps within 10 degree variable start to finish ,and 50 watts per sq ft light coverage.....
Dial these factors and reap the rewards.....then there`s dialing strains and nutrient requirements but that`s another thread.....anyways....
Good luck....DHF.....
.....
Big differences during lights off when temps drop and humidity spikes causes condensation inside the grow area that promotes airborn pathogens , especially in late flower.....now....
Air exchange twice per minute will control your temps IF yas use an "active" intake as well as the exhaust/scrubber combo , and all yas gotta do is plug em in to cheap ass router/fan speed controllers and thermostats..simple..babyshit..and ....
As long as there`s a small muffin fan underneath the stacked bulbs on it`s lowest setting to gently assist natural rising heat convection , the exhaust/scrubber combo will constantly pull excess heat OUT of the room as fresh cooler air is constantly sucked in with an active intake......and hey.....
All this can be done from INSIDE the house with "ambient" temp air as long as fresh air is circulated IN the house 24/7/365......anyways...
Lotta brainstormin and opinions on howta do shit as optimal as possible , but the rules are the rules when growin inside guys.....
70% humidity till end of stretch and below 50 till Harvey , air exchange twice per minute OR sealed with CO2 , a/c and dehuey , room temps within 10 degree variable start to finish ,and 50 watts per sq ft light coverage.....
Dial these factors and reap the rewards.....then there`s dialing strains and nutrient requirements but that`s another thread.....anyways....
Good luck....DHF.....
.....FunkJungle
Member
SirStynkalot- thanks for the offer I have no problem posting up some pics. It might take me a couple days but I'll get'em on here.
DHF- Nice to see you brother I always value your opinion and have much respect for all your contributions here at the mag.
So my thermostat controller and booster fan should be arriving tomorrow. I think both will be useful. I also have a second 425 cfm inline fan and a manual fan speed controller to work with.
So what I'm wondering now is whether or not I should go completely 'active' and just use the automatic thermostat temp controller, inline fan, speed controller, and seal up the other intakes, or if I should keep the 3 passive intakes and 'boost' one of them when it gets too cold. Only thing I'm concerned of with the latter option is a possible loss in negative pressure when it boosts.
Right now there is likely an airflow restriction because the window is somewhat sealed and I have no airflow passage into the room itself aside from probably a little through the window and from around and under the door to the room itself. Actually there is also a heater vent above the window that will kick on occasionally. I don't know if the airflow from there shuts off completely when the heat turns off or if it still can pull unheated air.
I have been considering cutting an opening through my closet/veg/drying room into the living room, and use that as my source for warm air.
What do you think?
DHF- Nice to see you brother I always value your opinion and have much respect for all your contributions here at the mag.
So my thermostat controller and booster fan should be arriving tomorrow. I think both will be useful. I also have a second 425 cfm inline fan and a manual fan speed controller to work with.
So what I'm wondering now is whether or not I should go completely 'active' and just use the automatic thermostat temp controller, inline fan, speed controller, and seal up the other intakes, or if I should keep the 3 passive intakes and 'boost' one of them when it gets too cold. Only thing I'm concerned of with the latter option is a possible loss in negative pressure when it boosts.
Right now there is likely an airflow restriction because the window is somewhat sealed and I have no airflow passage into the room itself aside from probably a little through the window and from around and under the door to the room itself. Actually there is also a heater vent above the window that will kick on occasionally. I don't know if the airflow from there shuts off completely when the heat turns off or if it still can pull unheated air.
I have been considering cutting an opening through my closet/veg/drying room into the living room, and use that as my source for warm air.
What do you think?
SirStynkalot
Member
active is easier. one in one out to each box and seal the room off from the unregulated outside. Even if the outside is cold as balls, it still varies day to day and day to night. One way vents still leak and aren't well insulated, meaning you're going to end up with big day/night temp swings inside the room. Just sealing the thing off is easier. Exhausting out of it's fine (provided you're not worried about law enforcement checking heat signatures) but intaking's a pain and a climate controller on a one way vent doesn't really do the job properly.
Remember convection currents - cold air is more dense than hot air. If you have an opening, lots of heavy cold air will come in and it's gonna pool at the bottom first creating both a general swing and microclimate problems around the floor. If you were feeling like it, as a winter-only fix you could rig up some way to cool the "lung room" (the bedroom itself not including boxes) with outside air, but the moment summer starts you'll have to replace it with an air conditioner. I can probably only offer a couple cautions for what not to do with the whole using winter air thing - it's not something I ever managed to figure out to my satisfaction. I screwed it up so many times I just gave up and bought an AC unit.
As a cool little case in point for the convection thing, I knew a guy once that had about 50 feet of ducting running from the outside of his house, through two 1000w air cooled hoods, and out the other side into his grow room, with a total vertical drop of about 6'. Dude didn't have a fan on the entire line. Apparently just the difference in temperature between his grow room and the outside was enough to create a convection current that would keep the hoods cold to the touch (not cool). It was like siphoning gas except with cold air. I assume the guy had to put a couple fans on the line once spring came around, but over the winter it was a cool little science experiment.
Same thing will happen through your window as happened through his lines if your grow room's temp regulated. You have a hole with a vertical drop for heavier air to pour in like water.
NEXT:
CO2 still needs to be refreshed. If your outside air intake is limited because of the temps then you'll need to get it some other way. If you can cut into the living room and pump enough air between the two then that will work, but otherwise you will have to look into some sort of CO2 booster method.
For smaller boxes or sealed bedrooms the easiest, most consistent, and most expensive way is to boost CO2 with a burner or tank and seal up the bedroom. The next best would be to exchange air with a different room in the house, but that can come with security risks, noise, and pissed off landlords depending on how you do it and what you do. For that kind of room you'd probably want at least a 6" inline fan going through the walls minimum. The last and least effective option is organic boosters or dry ice boosting.
I personally had great success with fungus based CO2 boosters. You can buy the bags from the grow store or you can just grow your own mushrooms out of sawdust in the grow room. Mushroom composting converts half the weight of the substrate into CO2 gas. A good sized rubbermaid tub of mushrooms or like 4-6 "breathe bags" or whatever they're called at the grow store should cover your flower room I'd guess. Add a couple for veg, break em up once a month and swap em out every 3-6 depending on the shape they're in when you buy em. Once you have em put in you can get a CO2 testing pad if you want. I know they won't boost em crazy high but it should keep the girls at least balanced with atmospheric levels.
I'd recommend steering away from fermentation or dry ice. They require too much maintenance.
I hope I caught all your questions and didn't assume something you already mentioned. I'm a bit too tired to go back over the thread and fact check at the moment. If I screwed up somewhere please let me know.
Finally, don't be discouraged about the duct booster fan. In my experience it's not possible to have too many fans. You'll probably need it sooner or later if you like to experiment at all
Remember convection currents - cold air is more dense than hot air. If you have an opening, lots of heavy cold air will come in and it's gonna pool at the bottom first creating both a general swing and microclimate problems around the floor. If you were feeling like it, as a winter-only fix you could rig up some way to cool the "lung room" (the bedroom itself not including boxes) with outside air, but the moment summer starts you'll have to replace it with an air conditioner. I can probably only offer a couple cautions for what not to do with the whole using winter air thing - it's not something I ever managed to figure out to my satisfaction. I screwed it up so many times I just gave up and bought an AC unit.
As a cool little case in point for the convection thing, I knew a guy once that had about 50 feet of ducting running from the outside of his house, through two 1000w air cooled hoods, and out the other side into his grow room, with a total vertical drop of about 6'. Dude didn't have a fan on the entire line. Apparently just the difference in temperature between his grow room and the outside was enough to create a convection current that would keep the hoods cold to the touch (not cool). It was like siphoning gas except with cold air. I assume the guy had to put a couple fans on the line once spring came around, but over the winter it was a cool little science experiment.
Same thing will happen through your window as happened through his lines if your grow room's temp regulated. You have a hole with a vertical drop for heavier air to pour in like water.
NEXT:
CO2 still needs to be refreshed. If your outside air intake is limited because of the temps then you'll need to get it some other way. If you can cut into the living room and pump enough air between the two then that will work, but otherwise you will have to look into some sort of CO2 booster method.
For smaller boxes or sealed bedrooms the easiest, most consistent, and most expensive way is to boost CO2 with a burner or tank and seal up the bedroom. The next best would be to exchange air with a different room in the house, but that can come with security risks, noise, and pissed off landlords depending on how you do it and what you do. For that kind of room you'd probably want at least a 6" inline fan going through the walls minimum. The last and least effective option is organic boosters or dry ice boosting.
I personally had great success with fungus based CO2 boosters. You can buy the bags from the grow store or you can just grow your own mushrooms out of sawdust in the grow room. Mushroom composting converts half the weight of the substrate into CO2 gas. A good sized rubbermaid tub of mushrooms or like 4-6 "breathe bags" or whatever they're called at the grow store should cover your flower room I'd guess. Add a couple for veg, break em up once a month and swap em out every 3-6 depending on the shape they're in when you buy em. Once you have em put in you can get a CO2 testing pad if you want. I know they won't boost em crazy high but it should keep the girls at least balanced with atmospheric levels.
I'd recommend steering away from fermentation or dry ice. They require too much maintenance.
I hope I caught all your questions and didn't assume something you already mentioned. I'm a bit too tired to go back over the thread and fact check at the moment. If I screwed up somewhere please let me know.
Finally, don't be discouraged about the duct booster fan. In my experience it's not possible to have too many fans. You'll probably need it sooner or later if you like to experiment at all
D
DHF
Good info Stinky , and as long as fresh air can be introduced into the lung area "passively" , air exchange twice per minute will provide all the ambient CO2 needed for your plants to thrive in the grow area WITH active intakes and exhausts on controllers and thermostats.......
Never used CO2 supplements in my life with dialed results from air exchange twice per minute since pot only needs up to 900 ppms before it shuts down and wont accept anymore during lights on , and then they "shit out" what they didn`t use during lights out and start all over again 12 hrs later......so....that said....
If yas live where air is clean and there`s no pollution from freeway traffic and manufacturing plants , Stinky`s suggestion of fungus based shroom logs will indeed add a certain amount of CO2 into the small area , but the only wayta really know how much is to get a "CO2 monitor" that hangs in the room like temp and humidity monitors.....regardless....
Pull from the lung area and exhaust the heat into your living area during winter to gain the benefits , and as Stinky said exhaust outside through scrubber combo during summer FTW....now....
Slingin light at their ass NEVER increased yield , nor will it EVER without dialed "perfect " environment , so stay with 1600 watts till shit gets stabilized towards dialage......
My setups were 8x8 outside dimensions with interior measurements ending up 6x6 with 3-600`s stacked for a total of 50 watts per sq ft , so........
I only had 8" x 8" more sq ftg than you , but my plants were in that outside 1' shelf/angled rack area all the way round the room compared to you having to insert plants "inside" 54" x 54" that puts the plants that much closer to the bare bulbs and....
Yas gotta be mindful of plants growing toward the light stimulus and getting scorched or light bleached in such a small area.......
Still haven`t read what type setup with plants and medium that`ll be inside said area , so there`s waaaay more to things in small areas besides the lumens and airflow/CO2 requirements.......anyways....
Need more input and we`ll figure out howta dial the setup.....Good luck and.....
Peace....DHF.........
Never used CO2 supplements in my life with dialed results from air exchange twice per minute since pot only needs up to 900 ppms before it shuts down and wont accept anymore during lights on , and then they "shit out" what they didn`t use during lights out and start all over again 12 hrs later......so....that said....
If yas live where air is clean and there`s no pollution from freeway traffic and manufacturing plants , Stinky`s suggestion of fungus based shroom logs will indeed add a certain amount of CO2 into the small area , but the only wayta really know how much is to get a "CO2 monitor" that hangs in the room like temp and humidity monitors.....regardless....
Pull from the lung area and exhaust the heat into your living area during winter to gain the benefits , and as Stinky said exhaust outside through scrubber combo during summer FTW....now....
Slingin light at their ass NEVER increased yield , nor will it EVER without dialed "perfect " environment , so stay with 1600 watts till shit gets stabilized towards dialage......
My setups were 8x8 outside dimensions with interior measurements ending up 6x6 with 3-600`s stacked for a total of 50 watts per sq ft , so........
I only had 8" x 8" more sq ftg than you , but my plants were in that outside 1' shelf/angled rack area all the way round the room compared to you having to insert plants "inside" 54" x 54" that puts the plants that much closer to the bare bulbs and....
Yas gotta be mindful of plants growing toward the light stimulus and getting scorched or light bleached in such a small area.......
Still haven`t read what type setup with plants and medium that`ll be inside said area , so there`s waaaay more to things in small areas besides the lumens and airflow/CO2 requirements.......anyways....
Need more input and we`ll figure out howta dial the setup.....Good luck and.....
Peace....DHF....
.....
Last edited:
FunkJungle
Member
Sorry for the lack of updates on this thread.
Security issues forced me to break everything down and relocate, but the relocation ended up being worse for my plant's health than this spot. Guess that's what happens sometimes when you put your plants in someone else's hands. Nothing that time and some tlc won't fix.
Fortunately the security crisis is over and once again I have been given the green light. I am now rebuilding this room. Hopefully now that I'm starting from scratch I can build it back up the right way.
I'll be taking some pics once I have the flowering room reassembled, hopefully tonight but if not then tomorrow.
-FJ
Security issues forced me to break everything down and relocate, but the relocation ended up being worse for my plant's health than this spot. Guess that's what happens sometimes when you put your plants in someone else's hands. Nothing that time and some tlc won't fix.
Fortunately the security crisis is over and once again I have been given the green light. I am now rebuilding this room. Hopefully now that I'm starting from scratch I can build it back up the right way.
I'll be taking some pics once I have the flowering room reassembled, hopefully tonight but if not then tomorrow.
-FJ
