Finding Balance between GPW and Weight Per Plant

[SirStynkalot]

entirely strain and environment dependent.

Sativas are long and branchy. Indicas are short and compact. DHF recommends a sativa/indica hybrid but I've seen a couple people pull amazing results with Kushes, which tend to be stretchy, spindly, and put out a lot of side branching. Horrible for horizontal but great for vert VSCROGs.

Heat and humidity also affect stretch. Best I can guess for a decently dialed environment would be about 50 days if you transplant when they're about to get rootbound in solo cups or about 70 days from rooted clone. Might be a bit less since you're intending to use coco on drippers and my main experience with this is handwatering peat based mixes. Coco on drippers is a lot faster.

 

[vapeman24]

entirely strain and environment dependent.

Sativas are long and branchy. Indicas are short and compact. DHF recommends a sativa/indica hybrid but I've seen a couple people pull amazing results with Kushes, which tend to be stretchy, spindly, and put out a lot of side branching. Horrible for horizontal but great for vert VSCROGs.

Heat and humidity also affect stretch. Best I can guess for a decently dialed environment would be about 50 days if you transplant when they're about to get rootbound in solo cups or about 70 days from rooted clone. Might be a bit less since you're intending to use coco on drippers and my main experience with this is handwatering peat based mixes. Coco on drippers is a lot faster.

Gotcha!

I think one of the hardest parts of this grow will be trying to agree on a strain to run with my partner haha. If Kush's do as well as you say in a VSCROG, I think I might like to give Banana Kush a try. As someone who also makes concentrates (that's what I am known for) I would obviously like to work with a strain that is very resinous and produces high returns when making BHO or winterized oil. To this day Banana Kush was my highest yielding strain at 28%, but like you said, that has everything to do with the environment it was grown in.

How do OG's fair in a VSCROG setting? Being in SoCal we have access to a few growers and we will probably have access to OG clones. We might go that route to make it a little easier on ourselves the first grow, but I definitely want to pick a strain that will maximize our success in a VSCROG setting.

Not to pick on or hate on the picture I posted from above from someones grow, but wouldn't you call that an inefficient way of setting up a room? To me that looks like at least a 10ft x 10ft room, so that's 100 sq/ft. He only has three 600w lights for a total of 1800w. That comes out to 18w sq/ft. Keeping everything else the same, wouldn't he have achieved better yields just given he set that up in a smaller room like 8ft x 8ft with reflective linings on the walls? That would change it to 28w sq/ft which is over a 55% increase in watts sq/ft without changing anything else. I obviously wouldn't expect a 55% increase in yields, but wouldn't it at least have a significant impact?

To me, it seems the reason allot of first time growers achieve less than desired results is because they don't focus on perfecting the environment and they don't take the time to educate themselves on every aspect of growing or learn how to fix any potential problems. I already have a word document with over 40+ links to different threads pertaining to different issues that occur when growing and how to fix them, and I am still 3-4 months away from my grow at least. I am the type of person who wants to know how to fix a problem before it even occurs, or better yet, I like to identify anything that could potentially become a problem and correct it before it does.

Also, do like the idea of having four rows of stacked 600w lights like pictured in my diagrams? I felt like this would be the most efficient way to spread as much light throughout the canopy as possible. Another thing I was possibly thinking was having just four 1000w lights in the middle, then having two 400w lights on the floor or coming from beneath the canopy. Thoughts on that?

Thanks [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SirStynkalot for all the input so far
[/FONT]

 

[vapeman24]

I have another question hopefully someone looking through this forum can answer!

So I have been doing much more reading and I really like the idea of using the K.I.S.S. method of feeding along with a slightly modified Dutch Bucket approach.

My idea was that I use the dutch bucket (aka "Bato "Bucket") approach of using either 100% perlite or a mix of perlite/coco as the media using drip feeders with a 2" reservoir at the bottom. However, instead of recirculating the nutrients (somewhat depleted) back to the main reservoir, I could collect them in a separate reservoir. This would make it so we would not have to monitor the PH and PPM levels of our feeding reservoir since the runoff with depleted PPM and increased PH will be stored in a separate tank. Then when the runoff tank is getting full we could adjust that tank back to proper PH and PPM and re-use that water. So it would be a "DTR" (Drain-To-Recycle) system!

I was thinking this would decrease our chances of having PH and PPM issues, and the bato bucket design will provide near RDWC results while still leaving us some wiggle room for small error since growing in a media is more forgiving than growing in water.

Any thoughts about that idea? Anyone done anything similar?

 

[DHF]

Got your pm and figured it`s better to address your concerns so other folks can learn......now......

Looked over the thread , and you`ve decided to do passive hydro in the dutchbuckets/bato buckets/autopots type setup on different levels stadium style......

Bobblehead`s racks were a spinoff of what my flip rooms with 3-600`s stacked looked like , except my rooms were square and the angled corners had no plants to prevent em from growing into and choking each other out affecting yields bigtime.....and...

My racks were angled with the plants pointed at the lights so the backs wouldn`t haveta be hacked out for the fronts to develop properly as in stadium and regular shelf setups......

I had 4 plants on 4 shelves/racks on 4 walls and 3 stacked 600`s in 2 flip rooms 6 x 6 with interior area for 50 watts per sq ft and dialed environment.....

64 Chem D plants finished every 5 weeks perpetually @ 98 oz+/- once dialed and hoonin....Lil over 6 lbs outta 1800 watts........

Plant numbers dictate yields.....Growing less plants takes increased veg time for less crops per yr , but since you`re in a learning curve mode don`t concern yourself on yearly production , but rather what yas can scrape and extract from every bit of trim after Harvey for icing on the profit structure with your knowledge of the extract market in med-ville .....but.....

I realize you`ve got plant restrictions , but slinging increased wattage at their ass without perfectly dialed environment as well as the hybrid yas run is a total waste of time and money IME.....

I never liked stadium setups cuz there weren`t any plants on the end walls cuz stadium setups were always rectangles not square so the plants would be closer to the bare bulbs for max lumen penetration/plant absorption........and lastly......

Make sure you aim for 50 watts per sq ft and if yas use CO2 run ambient lights on temps hot in the mid 80`s for accelerated plant metabolism and keep lights off temps within a 10 degree variable for dialed results.......

75 watts per sq ft and up takes increased environmental control and knowledge and experience/runs under yer belt of how to do so...so......Baby steps on the road to Nirvana my buddy.....You`ll get there......

Keep RH 70% till end of stretch and then as close to 50% till end of cycle ftw.......Aight.....Nuff outta my old ass today......GF said breakfast`s ready , so wake and bake`s done for the day......

I`m around so just ask questions in the thread since it`s pertinent to what you`re doing in the future and might help other folks figure shit out.....

Good luck and take care.....DHF..........

 

[vapeman24]

Looked over the thread , and you`ve decided to do passive hydro in the dutchbuckets/bato buckets/autopots type setup on different levels stadium style......

Well, I really like the idea of dutch buckets, but I have by no means "decided" on anything yet. I am very open-minded to any and all suggestions. I am just trying to see as many ideas and designs as possible in order to pick one that best suits our situation and goals.

Bobblehead`s racks were a spinoff of what my flip rooms with 3-600`s stacked looked like , except my rooms were square and the angled corners had no plants to prevent em from growing into and choking each other out affecting yields bigtime.....and...

My racks were angled with the plants pointed at the lights so the backs wouldn`t haveta be hacked out for the fronts to develop properly as in stadium and regular shelf setups......

I had 4 plants on 4 shelves/racks on 4 walls and 3 stacked 600`s in 2 flip rooms 6 x 6 with interior area for 50 watts per sq ft and dialed environment.....

Is this the basic idea of what your set-up looked like? Obviously the other two walls would have racks as well, and each one would have 16 plants, but is this the general idea?

64 Chem D plants finished every 5 weeks perpetually @ 98 oz+/- once dialed and hoonin....Lil over 6 lbs outta 1800 watts........

That's fantastic, 1.5gpw is exactly what my goal is when I get dialed in. Realistically though, I would be content with .5gpw for the first grow, and I would consider .75gpw a great success.

Plant numbers dictate yields.....Growing less plants takes increased veg time for less crops per yr , but since you`re in a learning curve mode don`t concern yourself on yearly production , but rather what yas can scrape and extract from every bit of trim after Harvey for icing on the profit structure with your knowledge of the extract market in med-ville .....but.....

I realize you`ve got plant restrictions , but slinging increased wattage at their ass without perfectly dialed environment as well as the hybrid yas run is a total waste of time and money IME.....

I was talking to my grower friend today and it seems as if though I didn't fully understand our CA laws and what is/isn't "legal" when it comes to plant counts and such. Due to this, it looks like we will be able to take on more than 36 plants that I had originally limited ourselfs to. Personally, since we are two people, I would not want to exceed anything above 99 plants, nor do we have any need to do so. We don't have to worry about inspections or anything like that, just trying to be legit as possible.

Not that it means we want to have 99 plants, but that is our absolute limit for the future after we get dialed in. I really like your idea of having all four walls covered since no light will be wasted, but would that work in a tent? I wouldn't mind eventually having two flip rooms, but instead of 64 plants/room, we could do 48 plants/room. So instead of 16 plants/rack as you did, we could do a slightly more manageable 12 plants/rack.

I also like the idea of an 1800w electric bill compared to 4800w haha.

Make sure you aim for 50 watts per sq ft and if yas use CO2 run ambient lights on temps hot in the mid 80`s for accelerated plant metabolism and keep lights off temps within a 10 degree variable for dialed results.......

75 watts per sq ft and up takes increased environmental control and knowledge and experience/runs under yer belt of how to do so...so......Baby steps on the road to Nirvana my buddy.....You`ll get there......

If we decide to run C02, what watts/sq ft would you recommend? Would you stick with 1800w, or would you add a fourth 600w to get 2400w and 66 watts/sq ft? The costs of implementing C02 really isn't that high for the potential reward, so I would really like to try that even if we aren't able to fully maximize the potential of doing so. Might be some wasted money, but I think the experience will be worth it.

I read http://home.olemiss.edu/~suman/PhysiologyandMol.Biol.2008.pdf last night and have been reading about C02 for a few days and have learned some great things. I realize that the only way to properly utilize and reap the rewards of having increased C02 is to have a perfectly set-up environment, but I take that as a challenge. I anticipate spending at least a couple weeks setting up the grow room trying to perfect the temperature and humidity as well as all other variables. I know that the environment is the most important factor in growing, so I plan on spending most of my time setting up that grow room to be as controlled as possible. Worst case scenario we spend $500-$600 on C02 costs without affecting the yield size, but we would still get valuable experience from it. So I wouldn't consider that a waste of time or money.

Were you using the KISS method with your rack system, and how did you grow them? Hempy buckets, coco, soil? DTW using hand watering or drip feeding? Really liking your idea much better than my most recent design. I was skeptical about growing larger plants in a stadium setting anyways.

 

[DHF]

That's exactly what I did except the racks were 4 ' wide and 6' tall with 17" angled corners that held all auxiliary environmental equipment plus a small cubbyhole entrance into the rooms.....

They were my spin on Heath Robinson`s vertical racks just like Bobbleracks were his spin on how I did it....I don`t suggest yas jump off into a stacked mega plant vertical SOG setup until yas dial your cloning skills , plus......

It takes several runs to dial a strain to know where they`ll finish sideways and vertically by end of stretch so as to keep the end/top colas from growin too close to the stacked column of lights and cause heat scorching/light bleaching.....and for the record about CO2 and increased yields......

Folks think that sealing a room up and runnin CO2 is gonna be some magic juju that`ll make donkey dicks jump out the plants and nothing could be further from the truth.....especially with lower temps in the grow areas.....that said....

I`ve seen 1 person rock "sealed w/CO2" in over 20 yrs online , and it was with elevated temps lights on and lights off temps kept within 10 degrees the life of the grow for increased metabolism and end result increased yields......1......and why ?.....

If yas seal a room you HAVE to provide at LEAST as many ppm`s of CO2 as ambient air concentrations just for the plants to SURVIVE.......

Heath taught me the use of lung rooms to condition environment and pump it into and suck it out of flip rooms for constant air exchange twice per minute using the inherent CO2 in the air we breath many yrs ago and it worked well ....

I ran DTW coco with 1/3 stringy fibers ,1/3 croutons/chunks , and 1/3 chunky perlite in my containers in #5 smartpots fed once a day w/GH 3 part , lil silicablast and cal/mag plus till end of stretch and then twice a day when they start suckin juice and swellin till end of cycle.....now.....

For a start I suggest yas take baby steps and attack your clone game with a vengeance and learn how to be proficient at rooting cuts before jumpin off into increased number setups cuz , the more ya learn the more ya earn....

Instead of stacked lights start with 5-600`s in that 8 x 8 in an "X" pattern and run "concentric" plant donuts surrounding the outer bare bulbs , and the 1 in the middle blasts 360 degrees at all 4 separate donuts providing outer AND inner lumen penetration with as close as yas can come to 50 watts per sq ft and optimum conditions....

You`ll never hit the 1 gpw mark till all strains are known backwards and forward AND monocropped with only 1 strain per grow area , at least consistently much less hit the 1.5 mark , so Let`s focus on getting your skills and experience built lil at a time......

Maxibloom @ 7 grams per gal/KISS works well , but I never used anything but GH 3 part for over 20 yrs inside before retirement...regardless.......

Go to vert section and look up Farmhouse Cat`s thread for vertical racks that`s well illustrated w/pics to get an idea of what`s up with sideways canopy walls of plants , and good luck....

Peace....DHF..........

 

[vapeman24]

Well, you did something many people have not been able to do DHF. You talked me out of doing something I had my mind set on. After reading many more threads last night, and coming across some of your postings on other forums, I have decided that implementing C02 would not be beneficial. Who the hell am I to argue with Heath and yourself?

Here to offer alternatives to CO2 supplementation since I learned from Heath Robinson long long ago that major air exchange twice per minute provides all the CO2 inherent in the air we breathe that pot plants need to thrive and prosper......or at least it did for us well on 20 yrs of indoor croppin......

It`s a proven fact that pot falls under the C4 category of plants and that their maximum consumption during lights on is at best 900 ppm`s period , and trust me......Most all folks don't have a clue where CO2 generators OR CO2 supplementation even came into view as a "yield" increasing factor back in the day .......so.....I`ll be glad to elaborate.....

I really like the idea of building a lung room though. We will have the space to do so, and if we ever do want to try CO2 when we get dialed in we will have some better experience. You were right, no need for CO2 with proper air exchange.

I will make a more detailed response in regards to your last post DHF when I have a couple hours tonight to do so. One thing I don't think I mentioned was that, being in socal, I will have access to rooted clones so I wont be doing any of that myself until at least our 2nd or 3rd grow. Originally I planned on having a veg/clone room, but that wont be necessary as I know several people with great cuts. I will only be responsible for vegging.

 

[DHF]

That quote had a typo I never corrected in that pot`s a "C3" category plant but the same rules apply regardless , and don`t get me wrong.......

Proper CO2 concentrations are CRUCIAL to plant well being and dialed results , but what a WHOLE buncha folks don`t know is that with generators and tanks with controller setups , yas can run 1500 ppms but the plants aren`t usin it , and ........

What`s uptaken during lights on and NOT used before lights out is SHIT out/expelled along with excess transpiration/humidity the plants created/absorbed during lights off.....

Where I live and grew ambient CO2 levels were/are in the 750-900 ppm levels due to freeway auto emissions as well as factory emissions to boot , so air exchange twice per minute in smaller flip rooms all but cooled themselves with all the goody they needed to thrive and produce consistently for a win win situation.....IOW...

Lights off environment during late flower is the single most important aspect of a dialed crop guaranteed......Many things to learn on the path to Nirvana.....

Access to fully rooted cuts that will grow similarly and respond in kind to the light source are not that easy to come by , and that's why I used ta take at least 200 for the "pick of the litter" 64 for each new rotation....anyways.....

Hope you have access to consistent bug free cuts ftw.......

Take care and good luck.....

Peace....DHF..........

 

[vapeman24]

Heath taught me the use of lung rooms to condition environment and pump it into and suck it out of flip rooms for constant air exchange twice per minute using the inherent CO2 in the air we breath many yrs ago and it worked well ....

Were your lung rooms the same size as your flowering rooms, or were they larger? Did you have an environment controller that made controlling everything a little bit easier? They seem like a great way to simplify things, and lessen room for error. Costly, but effective

For a start I suggest yas take baby steps and attack your clone game with a vengeance and learn how to be proficient at rooting cuts before jumpin off into increased number setups cuz , the more ya learn the more ya earn....

Gotcha. I didn't even think about that yet. I initially had planned on having a seperate clone/veg room, but decided to hold off on that because my buddy said he has cuts to some great genetics. I was hoping that if I already had consistent access to good clones, I wouldn't have to focus on cloning until I got my growing game down. I know that sounds weird, but if somebody can give me great cuts and save me a ton of time and money, then doesn't that only make sense?

However, while my friend grows great stuff, I haven't seen the cuts or know how consistent they are, so that is something I will have to look into.

So, in the scenario that I can't find bug-free consistent clones in larger quantities would you:

A) Pick a few of the best clones, grow them as mothers, and clone those and pick the best of the bunch?

B) Grow from seed, and do the same thing.

I know I have access to some great OG cuts, but maybe there is a strain better suited to my needs that I can't get a clone of?

Instead of stacked lights start with 5-600`s in that 8 x 8 in an "X" pattern and run "concentric" plant donuts surrounding the outer bare bulbs , and the 1 in the middle blasts 360 degrees at all 4 separate donuts providing outer AND inner lumen penetration with as close as yas can come to 50 watts per sq ft and optimum conditions....

How many plants, if you were in my position, would you put in a set-up like that? I already tried that exact figuration in an 8x8 space as a mock-up, and I found that 6 plants each in 5 gallon containers would be the maximum amount I could fit in each donut. So a total of 24 plants. Sound about right?

Maxibloom @ 7 grams per gal/KISS works well , but I never used anything but GH 3 part for over 20 yrs inside before retirement...regardless.......

Thanks for the suggestion. Right now the KISS method is appealing to me because it is pretty hard to screw up. I am trying to control every variable that I can, while also trying to pick a set-up where all my risks are minimized while still being efficient and practical. That's why I like the bato bucket design because it allows some room for error if for whatever reason the plants did not get watered for a day. I have zero reason to believe that will ever happen because we will be at the grow at all times, but again, it's just the way I like to do things. We are still so far away from anything being done that I have an immense amount of research yet to do and I will definitely be looking more into nutrients, such as the ones you used, when the time comes for that.

I am mainly just trying to figure out the basic set-up of what we plan to do. From there I will decide exactly which type [/FONT]of style I want to grow in. If I end of doing donuts I wouldn't do bato buckets though probably. Then from there I need to figure out exactly what equipment I will need, etc.. Long ways before I really need to worry about what nutes I will be using., but still something to consider.

Go to vert section and look up Farmhouse Cat`s thread for vertical racks that`s well illustrated w/pics to get an idea of what`s up with sideways canopy walls of plants , and good luck....

Peace....DHF..........

Wow great looking set-up. There is a total of 136 pages between his two threads in the vert section so you're gonna have to give me a few days to go through that and have a response haha!

 

[DHF]

Bro ....Flowerfarmer`s last thread doin PPK`s in coco that "fucked up" and had ta be handwatered till Harvey STILL ended up with 7-1.7 lb plants and right at 12 lbs with buncha bare bulb 600`s and 1 K`s hangin best I remember.......

He`s another one to dig deep into threadwise , DesertHydro`s doin a 4 plant 5 light with the X pattern of lights and killin it with PPK`s......

Many ways ta skin a mule , and they're ALL usin "Jack`s"/J R Peters hydroponic nutes with calc/nit and killin it waaaay cheaper than maxibloom even....now.....

Lung rooms need ta be at least the size of the grow area , and I never used fancy controllers but rather just plug in thermostats , speed controllers , and separate intermatic "heavy duty" outdoor irrigation timers for KISS and as few bells and whistles as possible.....

The donuts with 6 plants around each light will get crowded , but there`s only 1 wayta find out so not knowing your strains or when to flip em 12/12 for canopy development by end of stretch is a big X factor as well.....

Lotta folks in medville tryin my 4 plant/5 light big plant setup that Krusty taught me 20 yrs ago where each plant gets blasted by 3 lights at all times ftw , so again.....things to ponder ...anyways....

Bare bulb big boy room in growroom designs and equipment is a good discussion as well on air exchange......regardless.....

I`m at the beach house and don`t post as much as I used to , so if I miss something in the thread , just pm it and I`ll get to it asap.......

Peace....DHF..........

 

[vapeman24]

I`m at the beach house and don`t post as much as I used to , so if I miss something in the thread , just pm it and I`ll get to it asap.......

Peace....DHF..........

Haha trust me, you are replying much faster than I am able to do the proper research on points you have mentioned.

I am just trying to absorb as much information as humanly possible over the next few months so I know all of my options. That way when the time comes, I will know exactly what I need in terms of equipment and know the exact costs involved before I even buy one thing or pop one seed. I am just trying to take every precaution possible in ensuring that I am as knowledgeable and competent as I can be heading into my first grow. I have seen too many threads where people don't have all the proper equipment, didn't set the room up right, don't focus of cleanliness and professionalism, and overall just a lack of keeping an eye on the small details.

Luckily I have people who will be able to assist along the way if I need a second eye to judge the health of plants, or need help doing things that only come with experience. However, in my opinion, experience has nothing to do with buying the proper equipment and having a perfect environment for the plants. That comes down to taking the time to do the research, and taking the time to set up the room as best as possible before starting to grow.

Again, I know my expectations are very high for myself, but my goal is to impress the pros at what an amateur can do when they truly take the time to learn before jumping in. I can't wait until i post my first grow journal!!!


EDIT: Also, just wanted to thank you again DHF for all the advice. Every time I dig through a new thread I sure enough usually find several well written and informative posts by you. Lots of people here really look up to you and your advice. I am honored that you have given me so much help! It isn't easy to come by these days!