Heath's Vertical Trees -- Attainable?

[flat9]

From what I have learned reading these forums, basically a PPK (passive plant killer -- not sure why it is called that) is a hydroponic system in which the reservoir sits below the media and a "wick" is used to draw the nutrients up to the media, and the wicking action of the media (e.g., coco) further distributes the solution throughout the entire root system. Here's a schematic of one such setup:

I'm sure this could be much better explained by people on here (and probably has been!). Just search the forums.

 

[SecondAttempt]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=256089

That's the current thread for PPK central... it's only 64 pages... the last few threads went hundreds of pages each.

To answer OP's question shoot for the stars just don't get discouraged if you wind up stuck in earth's orbit.

 

[otis33]

Otis gimme a quick run down on a PPK system if ya don't mind, not familiar with them at all.
sorry for the delayed response, but second attempt directed you to the right thread... copy that build and grow some trees, the regulars of that thread, myself, and amany in the vert section will help you along the way.

 

[flat9]

Otis why would you say use PPK as opposed to RDWC?

 

[green_thumb...]

Also what are the bennies of growin ppk versus other methods? Ease of grow?

 

[SecondAttempt]

Otis why would you say use PPK as opposed to RDWC?

No chillers, no root rot, no problems.
No plant loss due to failed pumps.
Nearly ZERO res management necessary.

Those are my reasons, Otis has been running PPKs longer so he may have other reasons too.

PPKs are the bees knees.

 

[otis33]

Otis why would you say use PPK as opposed to RDWC?

I would say ppk, because root root is much less likely, for one. you don't need a chiller. I believe the cost of the build is cheaper( everything can be sourced at Lowe's or home depot). if you are at all diy inclined this build is easy once you understand the parameters of the system. I've never grown rdwc, so....

 

[otis33]

he beat me to it... like I said, I've never grown rdwc, but the rate of growth in a dialed ppk seem to be on par with a rdwc...

 

[green_thumb...]

Good to know. Ive grown rdwc a few times and got more than a foot of growth (plant dependant) in as little as 10 days. The no chiller, no pumps and no root rot is very appealing though.

For some reason rdwc has been the easiest for me to grow with even over soil, I think its im in total control part, when I have to rely on whats in soil or a medium drying out and ph control things tend to spiral out of control due to build up and lock out.

Whats the best and easiest medium to use for a ppk set up? Thinking a single ppk tester is in order for my room.

 

[flat9]

Also, can someone please explain to me why Watts said "just say no to cool tubes?"

 

[StayFoolish22]

Is it possible to do a totally organic ppk?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Whats the best and easiest medium to use for a ppk set up? Thinking a single ppk tester is in order for my room.

The go-to is Turface MVP which is a calcined clay product used for maintaining baseball fields.
You can get it from John Deere. I believe their version of it is called Turface All-Sport.


Others use Napa Floor Dry #8822 as a replacement for Turface MVP. Both require screening of the fine pieces/washing before use.



Some have had good results in coco, but I've personally ran into the wicking tailpiece clogging up and causing the upper container not to drain fully/drowning the plant.

I believe D9 suggests a medium with a 33% porosity.


They grow some wicked plants practically by themselves with little user input. I'm itching to do a run in Turface after seeing what I could do in coco in a PPK my 1st run with them. I ran into some clogging issues and ultimately finished the grow hand-watered to waste, but still got some decent weight. These gave me 1.7lbs per plant despite my trouble.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Also, can someone please explain to me why Watts said "just say no to cool tubes?"

Glass between your lamp and the plants causes lumen loss. Even more so if it's not staying perfectly clean and wiped down often. I also believe there might be something to the glass not allowing UV-B light to the plants.


However, more importantly air-cooled reflector in general are not ideal. HID lamps are designed to run at certain temperatures to achieve their optimal spectral output. Air-cooled units prevent this, or at least those pulling colder air across their lamps. I'm not too versed on the details/reasoning... maybe others can chime in.

Bare Bulbs + Adequate cooling for the win!

 

[DHF]

Bare bulbs rule......All else drool....FF knows the drill..........I never grew with reflectors in all my yrs of inside , and then I got 3 cool tubes free with a big order I placed online at least 10-12 yrs ago so I swapped em for my bare bulbs in 1 fliproom to see the difference.....

Cost me almost 1/2 my normal yields , so they got hung on my fence at the farm and used for target practice.....Nuff said.....

Even my old head growbro`s that run horizontal setups use parabolics and vertizontals WITHOUT glass lenses that restrict lumens AND get dirty as fuck quick with recirculating air runnin through em constantly.....anyways....

Takes a certain amount of attention to detail and stick-to-it-iveness to hang with bare bulbs and dial em , as well as a perfect sideways canopy....Not many stay with vertical bare bulb setups and go right back to flat grows with reflectors and why ?.....

Cuz it`s easy , and as a rule most growers are stoners and somewhat lazy.....No offense , but it`s true.....It`s waaay easier to run flat grows on the floor or tables , and many many folks hear about the increased yield potentials of vertical growing and go for it , but........

Most fail repeatedly and go right back to buckets on the floor/tables/etc with reflectors and call bullshit on vert bein all that , but I assure yas that once dialed with all ducks in a row there`s not a higher producing setup out there'.....bet on it.... regardless.....

To answer the original question is yes......All things are possible with the proper watts per sq ft , dialed strains monocropped , and environment being most important......Heath always maintained laboratory conditions , and the results spoke for themselves.....that said....

Holler if we can help....

Peace.....DHF..........

 

[Born Loser]

There's a guy in the Coco forum crushing heaths best g/w by almost half a gram in Coco hempy buckets..

 

[DHF]

There's a guy in the Coco forum crushing heaths best g/w by almost half a gram in Coco hempy buckets..

Please post link.....Gotta see this....

Peace....DHF........

 

[Born Loser]

Me too!
I think you should pop in the coco hempy thread to drop a little DHF knowledge.
Should be towards the top.
Thanks

 

[SRGB]

flat9:

Heath's Vertical Trees -- Attainable?
Hi All. I've been lurking about here for a while, and I absolutely love reading through all of your excellent work on here. I especially loved Heath Robinson's vertical trees thread, and I want to set up something similar, but I'm worried that perhaps I'm setting my expectations too high to get -- trees out of it with just two months time of veg (I believe this is the time Heath said he spent on it).

My question is are these kinds of results really attainable? Has anyone else done it?

I'm by no means, by the way, questioning whether Heath Robinson did it (I'm sure he did taking one look at those giants!). But this would be my second grow, and want to know if I'm being somewhat unrealistic in my hopes.

FYI, I have a 10 foot by 5 foot tent that I'd plan on putting two trees in, and I plan on getting another smaller tent (maybe 4 x 8?) within which to veg.

Also, I couldn't tell from the thread, but did Heath just completely forgo the air stones and air pumps and rely solely on dissolved oxygen created by top feeding?

Anyway, if anyone on here has any words of wisdom or a similar setup and reasonable expectations, that'd be fantastic. Thanks....

Hi, flat9.

Expectations might be considered positive inspiration to further exploration, and perhaps eventual attainment of goals.

This post might be rather long to sift through. As a brief summary (short version), we might echo bobblehead`s well made points, paraphrased below

--
at #15

bobblehead:

You can do anything you put your mind to...

Just saying the possibilities are endless, and don't get hung up on mimicking to attain your goals.

--

and only add patience (#12) as being a possible advantageous ingredient towards eventually achieving your goals.

--

We are not posting here to outline any definitve, exhaustive or conclusive guide to what you are seeking, only some fairly broad points which might be further visited or explored to garner greater detail as it may or may not relate to one`s pursuits, from what we gathered experimenting with Square Root® Garden Bags. The data points may or may not be applicable. Please post if you would like us to remove this post from your thread. If inapplicable, please simply discard the particular point description.

Some possible considerations:

1. Awareness of the cultivar selected for the experiment. Or, genetics. Some may reach the required mass to achieve the desired result, some may not, regardless of the vegetation period. Perhaps selecting the cultivar genetically capable of filling a 5x5x8 foot area might be an inital determination.

2. Medium. We found pumice and perlite to possess properties suitable for long-term vegetation and continued flowering or fruiting. That is, thorough drainage, adequate capillary action, inertness decreasing chemical influence on nutrient solution, reusable. Perlite alone also worked well. Calcined clay alone worked well. Mixtures of the above 3 ingredients worked well. Coco coir can also work, though it may require some attention to its saturation and pH.

3. Lighting. Sufficient to strike the cultivar from two opposite angles, or a single large luminaire per specimen. Vertical bare bulb or hooded bulb with reflector. Either might work well. Perhaps over the last week or so, lighting can be reduced, as well.

3. Nutrients. As little as possible, as simple as possible. Any of the dry type nutrients, or the preferred nutrient. Any should work well. If more than one cultivar, perhaps can be more difficult if employing a single active delivery method. Different specimen may require different specific compounds. As little as possible and add to that, if needed, as a standalone application, top-fed, to accomodate individual specimen which might exhibit issues.

4. pH. 5.0-5.5 input. Lower pH input to account for pH fluctuation in the medium. One of the most important items to manage. Extended vegetation periods in media that retains too much nutrients over a period might adversely affect the units at a later point. Some gardeners prefer a range of 5.8-6.2. Once the gardener is aware of what that specific cultivarrequires, the inputs could be tailored for that specimen.

5. Watering. Once or twice per day, only until minimal run-off. Can be handwatered, or any of the various system configuarations. Does not require any pumps, air stones, feed lines, etc., unless preferred. There might be nuances in feeding less water than a gardener might expect necessary - and also not feeding too little water or nutrients. Feeding only what the specimen uses over a given period tended to work well in either active or passive systems. Watering too much reduced the ability to maintain a `fresh` (stable pH, less precipitation, less over-fertilization, less saturation of media if coco coir was in the media mix) solution every 24hrs.

6. Container capacity. Between 5 gallons and 20 gallons. The smaller the capacity of the container, the more acute gardener actions influence the specimen. Some gardeners achieve large plants or trees in 5 or even 3 gallon containers. Very possible, yet requiring some degree of awareness of the specimen and system. We found 10 or 20 gallons - same container for vegetation and flowering or fruiting to work during experiments, though 3 or 5 gallons work, too.

7. Vegetation. Full light of garden, i.e., the total available illumination that might be reserved for fruiting or flowering. 20/4, or 24/0. Until specimen reaches appropriate mass based on awareness of #1. In a 10x5 tent, that might be approximately 4 ft. wide by 4-6 ft. tall - prior to initiating fruiting or flowering. If the experiment is only the first in that particular garden, method, or other unknown variables (1st occasion), perhaps ignore any `time` requirements for a cultivar to reach a desired mass. Perhaps define the desire mass before, and simply garden until that mass would be reached - irrepsective of the duration necessary to reach that state. That might be a possible benchmark to reflect on at a future garden, i.e., it might require 6 weeks or 9 weeks. If the goal was the largest possible mass, negating a `time` variable to reach the mark might be rewarding. In essence, the gardener might seek for any surfaces behind the specimen to be unviewable due to the mass in fronmt of it - from the top of the container to the top of the specimen, or 4 ft. by 6 ft. of specimen mass - before initiating fruiting or flowering.

8. Temperature. The lower the average daily temperature, the least possible stress might be exhibited by the specimen. Not necessarily visible stress, but the physical process through which the specimen might exert energy to cool itself, instead of directing its energy to continued growth and development. Perhaps under 85 degrees F, ideally 75-80 degrees F, with illumination. Perhaps as low as possible over the last 2 weeks or so.

9. Dehumidification. The larger the specimen, the more water vapor they might push into the micro climate around the foliage. At least some form of water vapor extraction from the garden, i.e., dehumidification.

10. Supports. If a tent garden, perhaps affixing appropriate ceiling tresses or lateral bars to have the ability to tie branches from the top. Some gardeners employ yo-yos, cages, or other devices, or both. We found basic bamboo stakes to be useful. Perhaps 24 4 ft. stakes to support every lateral branch, in concentric circles around the trunk, and perhaps another 12-18 6 ft. stakes for the oldest branches (at the top 1/2 of the specimen). No branches without some form of support, to prevent stress or fracturing of the branches, and to permit the specimen to develop without bearing the weight of its own fruit or flowers.

11. Amendments, supplements, etc. Perhaps potassium silicate media or foliar fed once per 10 days, at 50ppm. Perhaps calcium fed separately once per 10 days. Perhaps iron fed once per month, at a very small amount. Without exacting awareness of what a supplement does, and its possible after-effects, or infleunces on the entire nutrient regime, as few additives as possible.

12. Patience. Without this element, it might be more difficult for the specimen to reach its maximum potential within the space parameters of the garden. Ideally, the gardener would want to not be able to physically move through the garden at all at the conclusion, nor be able to see any walls within the garden.

--

The above were simply posted as a possible simple appraoch. Just an optional cursory outline. Not in any particular order, nor intended to be definitive, though #12 could be a preface to each of the previous 11 points, or any other point incorporated into the flow of the model.

There really might not be any magick involved, or `secrets`. What might be gleaned by the gardener during such an experiment may be difficult to convert into printed principles.

The particular system or method used, perhaps, could be selected based on the inherent preferences,or preferred experimental practices of the specific gardener. If a gardener preferred pumps, feed lines, etc., or an `active` system, then they might be more inclined to pursue such a route. If the gardener did not particularly prefer any method, hand watering might accomplish the same as an abundance of equipment employed. The cultivar should not be effected adversely by any method employed as long as the gardener provides the basic essentials.

In the past we experimented with active recirculating shallow water culture using 20 gallon SRBGB`s in a basin that covered an entire garden floor. We simply poured 10 or 20 gallons into the basin, which disperesed to form a roughly 2 to 4 inch pool in the basin. A single small water pump was affixed at the bottom of the basin. The pump ran 24/7 to a 12 in. 3/4 inch tube that had 1/8 lines travelling to top-feed each 20 gallon SRBGB. To keep the process going, we simple continued to replenish the solution in th large pool. Based on the extended vegetation period, we compiled approximately 3 total sets of pump and entire feed line. We swapped out the entire feed system every week to 10 days to prevent accumulation of build-up in the nutrient circuit. That was a relatively simple actively circulating system.

We also experimented with hand watering 10 and 20 gallon SRBGB`s in individual basins, approximately 2 ft. by 3 ft. reservoirs. We simple top-fed once per day at approximately 1 to 2 gallons per day, depending on cultivar. That amount of water (or solution) would accumulate to approximately 2 to 3 inches of run-off in the external basin, which roots could uptake over the 24 hour period between waterings. Roots grew into the basin and depleted the run-off to a only a damp level by 24 -36hrs. The specimen was then simply top-fed again. We described this process in an article at the subforum `Drain To No Waste Methods`.

Basically, mostly any `system` or `method` might work to achieve large plants or trees. But, without #12, the process might become challenging due to #12 being possibly an important precursor for #1 - #11, if not already in the designs of the gardener.

There are many threads at ICMAG which detail, or at least depict the basics of large plants or trees in DWC, soil, coco coir, aeroponics, rockwool, `bucket systems`, other novel apporaches, etc; some older threads some newer. Any gardener can do it in nearly any system - with #12 - and individual gardener awareness of their own preferences of approach. Again, the only magick might be found at #12.

We would perhaps simply handwater a large SRBGB filled with pumice, once per 24 hrs. Draw a 4-5 ft. wide by 5-6 ft. tall box on the wall, or on carboard in front of a wall, of the size the mass should be before fruiting initiation (half of the space described), and pre-place 36 4ft. and 6ft. stakes into the medium. Ignoring `time`, if the genetics permit it, the gardener might reach their desired goal. If not, then at least a baseline might be found from which to improve.

Positive expectations, or definitve goals, in general, might assist in advancing an experimenter forwards in their endeavors.

We hope that this post might be helpful.

Kind regards,
/SRGB/

 

[StayFoolish22]

Damn....Thank you.

 

[green_thumb...]

Could someone point me in the direction I need to setup a vert grow bare bulb 2k in a 8x5x10 space?

Whatever method and whatever number of plants, I really wanna start vert growing but draw up a blank for the best rout for my space.