Professional Seeks Expert Design Advise

[Skyhi]

I need to pick some brains about light spectrum, reflectivity (if thats a word?), and cooling; and how the balance of these principles can take my newest growroom design to the next level.

A little background:
I'm a dirt farmer (soil) and I grow large plants (for indoor) 3 to 5 feet tall in 15 to 20 gal fabric pots (firm believer in root space) and I scrog the plants over a lower trellis and support my yield with an upper trellis. My canopies fill rooms.

I've been running 1000W Hortilux bulbs in Magnum XXXL 8" air cooled hoods with great success for 5 years in 3 different rooms. Each space is slightly smaller than a two-car garage (17'X17') utilizing 12 lights (1000W over each 4'X4' of plant canopy).
All three rooms are passive intake and direct exhaust systems and rely on relatively inefficient 24k btu window unit ac to maintain the temps. Depending on the season, my internal temps can max out as high as 88F to 90F in the summer months to a nice 76F to 80F in cooler months.

From these rooms, I average around .85 grams per watt of trimmed top shelf quality. I can't seem to consistently get over the 1g/W threshold and with my level of horticultural and growing experience (over 20 years), I'm ready to break this hurdle...

So, I've shut down one of the 12 light rooms and I've acquired a new location that will allow me to build 2 smaller rooms, 12' long X 8.5' wide X 8" ceiling height.
I'm splitting up the space into 2 separate rooms in order to run different flowering cycles.

My concept is to have 2 rows of lights running the length (12') of the room. The planted dimensions for each row is 3'wide X 10'8" long. The rows will be divided by a 10" aisle for access with 10" aisle space all around the perimeter of the room. (I'm skinny, aisle space is wasted space). Ideally, the entire room will be filled by canopy, wall to wall, by the time my final pruning is completed at the end of the transition phase.

The rooms will also be sealed and have supplemented CO2 and mini split ac.

I'm considering running eight 600W lights (4 lights in each row) vs. six 1000W lights (3 in ea row)

I'm considering wing reflectors vs. parabolic vs. my tried and beloved Magnums.

I'm considering maximum usable light spectrum (PAR) not just lumens.

I'm considering heat radiation and accumulation.

I'm considering maximizing multiple points of light and spread while minimizing hot spots.

I know these are age old questions. But, balancing details of lighting beyond lumens and wattage can take many growers like myself to the next level.

Your thoughts, please, can help me break free and move beyond.

Thanks

 

[pHive.8]

Hi skyhi,
I took the liberty to come up with a lighting design based on the ePapillons. I think this could be a very good option for you.



These are complete 1000W fixtures. I planned 6 of the fixtures in the room. Above every bed you'll have 3 pieces.
I took the whole room into account, including the 10" aisles. For the walls I added a 75% reflection (which you could realize much higher).
As you can see in the above picture, the lights are not directly above the middle of the bed. This is because the light will have some overlap in the middle but no overlap from the sides. The walls will reflect some of the light of course.

At a height between canopy and lights of 3 ft this will result in the following:



With the ePapillon 1000W fixtures you'll get an average of 1027 µmol/m²s with a uniformity of 80% between min and max.

If you get the reflectivitiy of the sidewalls higher, the lightlevel will go up, as will the uniformity towards the sidewalls.
Matt white is the best. This will give a diffuse reflection.
Or go with reflective foil of course.

The ePapillon fixtures are using the Philips GreenPower 1000W Double Ended lamps. These have the highest PPF.
The ePapillons are not aircooled, but have an open reflector, so the heat is distributed well. This means no hotspots on your canopy.

 

[Skyhi]

Really glad to get your input. I had not considered the ePapillon fixtures. Without being air cooled, how would this effect my cooling demand? I've always preferred 1000W bulbs for flowering but was timid to consider this option in open reflectors due to the heat accumulation and cooling demand it places on the overall room.

I'm also curious about the effect the heat radiation from the Phillips Greenpower bulb has on the overall light spectrum. Standard 1000W HPS bulbs put off so much heat radiation that it can actually damage the usability of the spectrum and also effect the VPD (vapor pressure deficit) at the leaf surface causing reduced photosynthesis.

Does anyone know the difference in heat radiation from a Standard HPS compared to the double ended Phillips Greenpower?

 

[pHive.8]

Well, I guess there's not much difference in real heat radiation coming from both lamps.
Also here goes: all energy that isn't converted to light is converted to heat.
So it will only be a difference of a couple of percent.
Roughly taken 1/3 of the energy is converted to light and 2/3 to heat.

But heat is reflected the same way as light is. So if you have a uniform light distribution, you'll also have a uniform heat distribution. That's why you don't get real hotspot with the ePapillon. The light is distributed well.

I don't really understand what you mean by an effect of the heat radiation to the overall light spectrum. We do know that the hotter the lamp gets the more it shifts into the red spectrum. But the GreenPower lamps needs to be within a certain temperature range to function well. If you don't do this, this will effect the spectrum and the lifetime of the lamp.

 

[Stoogots]

...Does anyone know the difference in heat radiation from a Standard HPS compared to the double ended Phillips Greenpower?

very little

 

[Skyhi]

I found this info which answers my question about heat and performance.

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/printItem.asp?ic=HLHPS10PEPSYS&eq=&Tp=

Anyone have personal success stories switching from Standard HPS to ePapillon?

 

[pHive.8]

Ask you store, he'll know!

 

[Skyhi]

Thanks for your input and advise here, DGS. I've been reading a couple of your other threads. I'm feeling pretty well sold on the ePapillon vs any other style of reflective hood, including the Gavita.
I'm trying to get away from enclosed fixtures. Glass lenses not only filter out light spectrum but they also require so much maintenance to clean between cycles. It takes me a couple hours of cleaning and polishing on my current Magnum XXXL lenses.

 

[pHive.8]

Good to hear!
If you have any questions, just let me know.

 

[RB26]

I ousted sealed glass reflectors from all of my collective's rooms due to inefficiency, poor reflection, and hot spots. All Raptors were replaced with 48" Parabolic Vertizontal's. Using light meters, I gained anywhere from 10-20% increase in lumens by making this switch. Over 12-15K watts, this makes a huge difference.

I like your idea of having two smaller rooms. In all honesty, even though your larger room had ducted hoods, your AC was still dramatically underpowered. As a rule of thumb, a 1000W bulb is going to throw 3,500 BTU. Since you were running 12 of them, 42,000 BTU in total. Since your reflectors were ducted and air cooled, you can reduce that by about 10%.

This still leaves you with over 35,000 BTU of heat to dissipate when you only have a 24,000 BTU AC (which I guarantee isn't actually removing exactly what it is rated for). Your CO2 burner will also add to the problem. Personally I outfit all rooms with 24,000 BTU (2 ton) of AC per 4K watts. I realize this is overbuilt, but it makes life much easier as there are always inefficiencies.

As per your light quantity question, I'd say that depends on your plants. Normally I would suggest running the 8 600W's to get a more even cover of the canopy and increase your lumen/watt efficiency. However since you mentioned you grow larger plants, I'd probably suggest the 1000W's to get the extra penetration through the canopy.

 

[Skyhi]

Thanks for the input IC OVO.
Have you been happy with the Parabolic Vertizontals? How do you have them spaced?

I'm really excited about the smaller rooms. Gives me much more versatility in strain selection. I prefer only 1 or 2 strains in a room due to differences in nutrient demand and plant structure. I prefer sativa dominant which I believe will perform better under the 1000W. Not to mention, I've been successful for several years, in less than adequate conditions, mind you, with these genetics already under 1000W.

However, I'm interested in trying my hand at a small vert garden. Thinking to try splitting one of my 8'X12' rooms into two 8'X6' vertical rooms and hanging 4 1000W vert bulbs, 2 high and 2 low, no reflectors.

But first things first, I'm thinking to try out these ePapillon fixtures in my first room and get it up and running. Then I'll have more time and peace of mind for trial and error learning to garden vertically.

You mentioned my underpowered ac system. I'm currently running a 12k Watt room without any AC unit at all. Summer months are tuff but it runs through the night and its located in an area with cool nights. I just blast the room with the cool outside air. Definitely a challenge to create consistency but it's a low budget that hasn't been upgraded in over 4 years. I've got it pretty well nailed considering the difficult conditions.

BTW, are you accounting for 3500BTU on open reflectors? I was thinking it was closer to 4000BTU.

Again, thanks for your input. I've been doing this so long that sometimes I get stuck in one mindset and forget to get back to basics and try something new.

 

[RB26]

Thanks for the input IC OVO.
Have you been happy with the Parabolic Vertizontals? How do you have them spaced?

I'm really excited about the smaller rooms. Gives me much more versatility in strain selection. I prefer only 1 or 2 strains in a room due to differences in nutrient demand and plant structure. I prefer sativa dominant which I believe will perform better under the 1000W. Not to mention, I've been successful for several years, in less than adequate conditions, mind you, with these genetics already under 1000W.

However, I'm interested in trying my hand at a small vert garden. Thinking to try splitting one of my 8'X12' rooms into two 8'X6' vertical rooms and hanging 4 1000W vert bulbs, 2 high and 2 low, no reflectors.

But first things first, I'm thinking to try out these ePapillon fixtures in my first room and get it up and running. Then I'll have more time and peace of mind for trial and error learning to garden vertically.

You mentioned my underpowered ac system. I'm currently running a 12k Watt room without any AC unit at all. Summer months are tuff but it runs through the night and its located in an area with cool nights. I just blast the room with the cool outside air. Definitely a challenge to create consistency but it's a low budget that hasn't been upgraded in over 4 years. I've got it pretty well nailed considering the difficult conditions.

BTW, are you accounting for 3500BTU on open reflectors? I was thinking it was closer to 4000BTU.

Again, thanks for your input. I've been doing this so long that sometimes I get stuck in one mindset and forget to get back to basics and try something new.

Skyhi,

Yes the Vertizontals are great reflectors. Wide (48") footprint, easy to clean, no glass, and the ability to run bulbs horizontally or vertically.

I'm just recently making the switch to the e-Papillon's to try the newest and best. I think you will be extremely happy with yours and will not want to change them for a long time.

Congrats on you getting the AC situation dialed in, that sounds extremely difficult. For open reflectors, I do add a little bit more in for my AC calculations. Depending on the size of the room, layout, number of lights, design efficiency, etc, I plan for between 3500 BTU (most efficient) and 4500 BTU (least efficient) per light. AC's are something I always go overkill with either way, because I don't want any trouble regarding my atmosphere.