Terpenation at Terpene Station

[mr. durden]

I am familiar with winterizing
I misunderstood what you said, I thought you were soley speaking of the purge, not the extraction.

I have seen shatter come from a high heat purge and wax from a lower heat purge and the opposite.

I postulate alot of shatter still has residual butane in it. Im not suprised that over half of the entrants at the secret cup failed because no one is getting residual butane tests. Many testing facilities are offering it.....I think that everyone should look into getting their meds tested for residual butane, that is ultimately the truth of the "purge" right?

gotchya Highlife. i'm often multi-tasking so i apologize if i don't always make sense.

we actually flip our oil at the very end and purge for a couple more hours. you'd be surprised, or not, at how much butane still comes out :/

honestly, i was surprised that so many failed... especially some of the big names. you'd think it would be a big knock on their product, but honestly, it apparently isn't.

sadly the facility we deal with doesn't do butane, but i believe steep hill does. we are waiting on some indoor stuff to get that done along with a terpene test.

and i agree, the test would be the final say on what is truly purged. it just doesn't seem like customers don't care that much as I'm sure they will still pay top dollar for rump wax

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

So your justification is that GW didnt seem bothered by it, and that carla is too slow. But you havnt asked the designer up front whether or not you can sell his design? I stand by my shady comment until GW gives you written permission.

 

[mr. durden]

I'm sorry, was i suppose to justify myself? and to you? i made no justifications. one thing led to another. i certainly wasn't looking for it to be mentioned here, as i have enough interest to keep me busy for awhile.

If GW was truly interested in making money off his design, he would have patented it or sold the units himself, but he didn't. open source by it's nature is available to anyone. you can build it yourself at a big savings, but a lot of people don't want to mess with that. Carla is associated with GW and that lends credibility to her.

remind me to care what you think regis, as i don't

 

[SkyHighLer]

I am familiar with winterizing
I misunderstood what you said, I thought you were soley speaking of the purge, not the extraction.

I have seen shatter come from a high heat purge and wax from a lower heat purge and the opposite.

I postulate alot of shatter still has residual butane in it. Im not suprised that over half of the entrants at the secret cup failed because no one is getting residual butane tests. Many testing facilities are offering it.....I think that everyone should look into getting their meds tested for residual butane, that is ultimately the truth of the "purge" right?

The pass/fail residual butane bar has been set,

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mystery-Oil/191952837642348

"Mystery Oil shared a link.
October 9
Comments from SC Laboratory's director, shared by Rump Stiltskin regarding the discrepancy surrounding several Bay Area cannabis laboratories and Residual Solvent Analysis. Thank-you, Rump.

"Hey, I am the laboratory director at SC Labs, I would love to jump in the conversation you have going regarding residual solvent testing. To clarify, SCL uses a threshold of 5000 ppm for butane residue because that is the standard set by both the ICH and USP guidlines

http://www.ich.org/fileadmin/Public...ncept_papers/PDE_for_Cumene_Concept_Paper.pdf and http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/generalChapter467Current.pdf

I just got out of a meeting this morning with a major trade group who is setting standards for residual solvents and they are using 5000 ppm.

Steep Hill Lab uses 500 ppm because that is what the state of WA is recommending. We were a part of the group who consulted with the WA liquor control board on this topic and the reason these guidelines were set at 500 ppm is basically because of a witch hunt on butane extractions. Most of the labs wanted to ban butane extractions altogether, which we fought and compromised at a 500 ppm threshold.

One of the major problems with this industry is the lack of accepted broad standards. While we commend anyone who commits to a 500 ppm threshold for butane, the fact remains that the international standards for other similar products are set at 5000 ppm.

Going forward, we are redesigning our reports to show the exact ppm detected and will set two levels of p/f at 500 and 5000 to avoid industry confusion.

I hope this helps with the confusion."

 

[mr. durden]

thanks Sky!

 

[nakadashi]

high life... have you winterized before? just wasn't sure if you were familiar with the process. we basically purge our oil till it is done then dissolve it in a particular ratio of oil to everclear. then we freeze it for a couple days.

the waxes and what not clump together in the freezing process which allows you to then filter them out resulting in a winterized oil.

when you keep your material in the tube frozen with dry ice along with your butane, you accomplish something along those lines but not quite as efficient.

i think GW could probably explain better why heat extracts more waxes than i.

here in cali, there is less demand for winterized. if you are really looking to be healthy, you should only smoke winterized, but most of us are recreational anyway and like the smells, taste, etc.

Mr Durden, just curious as to your opinion on what is happening during these dry ice extractions. Does dry ice-temp butane "selectively" (I don't know the proper term for this) pull more of the desirables (eg, paraffin waxes) and less of the undesirables, or are the undesirables still being dissolved, but solidifying and clumping to itself at the bottom of the collection chamber?

If it is the latter, then maybe an alternative technique could be using regular temp butane, and on final recovery, super cooling the remaining liquid butane in the collection vessel to achieve the same effect of waxes sticking to the bottom.

Another thing that has been very confusing to me so far is that several people here have reported with dry ice that less cycles were necessary, but I thought higher temps allow solvent to dissolve more quickly.

 

[mr. durden]

i have a basic understanding, but let me inquire for a better explanation unless someone else chimes in. i don't think paraffin waxes are desirable. i think the real thing we are trying to avoid is water. freezing helps keep it from extracting water soluble stuff as much.

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/

i think less are being dissolved via the dry ice method. if you are going to winterize all your stuff, it might not be necessary to run dry ice.

it seems like your suggested alternate method might be more trouble to implement? it can't hurt to try. i need to turnover tubes quickly, so i try to keep as many variables a constant as possible/

i think less cycles in general should be the rule of thumb. We tend to do 2 or 3. or 1 with a bottom change and then two more if the material is super nice. mostly with dry ice.

i don't know if less are necessary with dry ice, but if you are using warmer butane, i'd think that is the one you would want to do less with since it might pick up more undesirable things

 

[nakadashi]

Ahh that makes sense. I was thinking of the actual advantage of your method is that the waxes clump at the bottom of the collection chamber, then freezing it at the end is all that should be necessary. Didn't consider the other advantage of freezing any possible leftover water in the column. It follows that the end product would also be lighter as water solubles don't end up extracted.

It also seems like using dry ice ends up for a superior end product because winterizing with another solvent takes out much of the flavors...that is until we figure out a way to reintroduce the lighter monoterps lost through all these processes

 

[nakadashi]

"Hey, I am the laboratory director at SC Labs, I would love to jump in the conversation you have going regarding residual solvent testing. To clarify, SCL uses a threshold of 5000 ppm for butane residue because that is the standard set by both the ICH and USP guidlines

http://www.ich.org/fileadmin/Public...ncept_papers/PDE_for_Cumene_Concept_Paper.pdf and http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/generalChapter467Current.pdf

I don't know if I agree with a statement that a pass/fail bar is set in stone.

The ICH and USP guidelines referenced *recommend* less than 50mg per day (if calculating based on a administering 10g/daily -- doubt anyone will hit that level for concentrates) OR 5000 ppm. Under the firs standard if a patient were to administer 1g of concentrate a day, the acceptable level of butane would be any amount under 5mg daily. However, the ICH is even willing to concede that higher amounts "may also be acceptable provided they are realistic in relation to manufacturing capability and good manufacturing practice."

Furthermore, the standards described in these papers do not seem specifically applicable to n-butane. The 50mg/daily or 5000ppm limit applies to what they call "Class 3" solvents which does not include n-butane.

Anyways, I'm not trying to tell anyone what a safe level of residual solvents in butane extracted oil is, I just don't think it is proper to incorrectly cite otherwise reputable sources in this manner. Please correct me if I have misunderstood the sources in any way.

 

[Gray Wolf]

So your selling MKIII's Durden? Did you ask GW if you could profit off of his design?

GW "licensed manufacture and distribution to Specialized Formulations"(SPR website)

Pretty shady imo to steal somebodies design and then undercut them on price. If you dont get an MKIII through Specialized then you ought to build it yourself.

When I donated the design and open sourcing to public domain, I gave permission for anyone to build one. I have no problem with anyone building and selling it to others, and hope enough do to keep the price low.

My whole idea was to make a small inexpensive unit available for ma and pa, who don't have much money, and being retired, I don't want to spend my golden years building equipment

Skunk Pharm Research licensed Specialized Formulations to use both the design and availed them of our resources, but as you note, they haven't kept up and have raised their prices.

Part and parcel of the same, because they had to hire an employee to keep up, and raised their prices to pay his salary. It improved delivery some, but the core problem is delivery from Glacier Tank, so it didn't fix it.

They actually discussed raising their prices with me before they did, and I told them that I had no problem with them running their own business as they saw fit, but advised them that in doing so, they would open a market window for competitors.

They did, and it did, so what can I say? The free market only works if it is allowed to be free. With every business decision, come the repercussions.

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

Well I stand corrected then, thanks for clarifying GW. My apologies durden

 

[mr. durden]

thank you GW. i certainly had no desire to hurt carla's business nor was my intention to make it known on here. i get enough business off instagram to keep me more than busy, along with outdoor coming in. i just think you came up with a fantastic design and having read your stuff on various forums, noticed that you didn't seem to care that others might be selling your design.

i'd love to build a 2lb unit based off your mk1a design, but never saw it with the 3x36 column. any chance you can post a pic? much appreciated

np regis

 

[RHH]

Wanted to drop in here and offer that http://www.ebay.com/itm/111189965092 might be helpful for anyone looking to get a 12" by 12" spool. I normally wouldn't vend parts (and I don't intend to) but I'm stuck with these things after my machinist forgot he wasn't supposed to put holes in everything.

In re: to Carla and specialized formulations...well, that's the rub when demand outstrips supply. I gave S.F. some leads on sanitary fittings with the hopes of improving delivery time and driving prices down.

As GW said, markup pays for things like overhead. Don't begrudge vendors simply because its cheaper to build it yourself. You're paying for convenience and their know-how.

 

[mr. durden]

the price seemed pretty fair.

yeah, plus glacier just had to send back all their 6x6 spools because they were defective. oh boy. :/

i was just surprised carla market up her units so much. 2k for a basic unit seemed a bit steep. it just seems she has too many things going on when you look at all that is offered on her website.

yeah, it gets expensive buying everything for 10 IIIa's :/

 

[PenZenMaster]

I was at Glacier Tank yesterday to pick up my latest order which was to have included 6x6 spools and found out that the problem with the spools was the machining. The groove for the gasket seal is supposed to be centered in the rim of the spool and the ones they just received were off center. It _might_ have been possible to seal the spool to other pieces with a flat gasket but there was NO way that they would seal with the usual gasket. So the steel was good just machined wrong. I was very curious as to what the defect was and was relieved to find out the the steel formula wasn't the problem.

On the subject of dry ice, does anyone think this story is going to make dry ice harder to get now? LAX Dry Ice Bomb

 

[RHH]

Wanted to drop in here and offer that http://www.ebay.com/itm/111189965092 might be helpful for anyone looking to get a 12" by 12" spool. I normally wouldn't vend parts (and I don't intend to) but I'm stuck with these things after my machinist forgot he wasn't supposed to put holes in everything.

In re: to Carla and specialized formulations...well, that's the rub when demand outstrips supply. I gave S.F. some leads on sanitary fittings with the hopes of improving delivery time and driving prices down.

As GW said, markup pays for things like overhead. Don't begrudge vendors simply because its cheaper to build it yourself. You're paying for convenience and their know-how.

Woah, that went fast. I have one more for sale and that's it(unless I sell my own...which I might...really want to recover my losses here). Then I'll just be liquidating the end caps and concentric reducers alone.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111190450543

If there's demand though I'll probably be back in ~3 weeks with more spools at lower prices. Sorry for the bundling--I knew the spools would go but the goal was to get rid of the end caps.

 

[nakadashi]

Whoa. Envisioning an MKIIIa with a 12" collection pot and a 4" x 48" column caused some slight tech engorgement. At packing density of 4.2g/in^3 that's like 2.8lb flower/trim a column!! O_O Insaneee..

 

[icdog]

I finally tapped some cans and have a few questions.

Do you guys tap the can and leave it? I found that flipping the can around changed the pressure till it was empty. Is that helpful?

The valves on the appion, what do you guys have them set at? Open all the way on both?
How do you know when the appion is empty of butane and the hose? When I was done tapping I kept the appion running for at least 5 minutes. Turned it off and disconnected everything but the out hose to the tank. When I unscrewed the out hose quite a bit of butane spewed out.
Once the hoses are off the appion is it empty of butane?

I iced my tank down while I was tapping as GW said. The tank weighed 28 lbs empty and about 34 after the tapping. When I burped the tank with the vapor valve and I re weighed the tank it was 36 lbs. Is that possible? I'm pretty sure some gas was escaping as my leak detector was going crazy, how could the tank weigh more?

 

[mr. durden]

leave it? i tilt it so that it all goes to the side where it is tapped. i also vac till -10

leave them both wide open.

look at your compound gauge. when it hits -15 or so, you should be all good. i vent what inside the unit outside. i then disconnect the hoses going to the appion before the filter dryer and then run the appion another 30 sec

did you close the valve to the tank first before unscrewing? i only hear the rush of pressurized air from the appion

it can't weigh more. something was off. you aren't running enough butane in your system either. run at least 10lbs. more if you running dry ice

 

[high life 45]

Pretty sure that changes in "atmospheric pressure" or something like that can cause tanks to weigh more.