Breeders only: anyone ever attempt seedless?
- Thread starter pip313
- Start date
I nor anyone else would want to. Tetraploid plants tend to have certain benefits, including but not limited to, increased growth vigour, better health, higher yielding fruits. But these terms relate to the the number of chromosomes in the plant cells. You would only know by examining a cell under a very good microscope and counting the pairs of chromosomes present. If you bred a diploid with a tetraploid, then you would end up with some triploids, but they tend to have low germination rates and poor fertility, and would not be an end breeding goal unless you wanted to fuck with your customers for some reason.
I believe what is being asked is something else, but I wont pre-empt any questions with un asked for answers.
I believe what is being asked is something else, but I wont pre-empt any questions with un asked for answers.
Tripoloid plants are unable to split chromosomes evenly therefore incapable of producing viable seeds. Why do it? Because I'm doing it to watermelon (orangeglo) and have a cannabis plant I would like to see uncapable of producing seeds under any condition specifically gorilla growing. I fail to see how a plant not capable of seeds is screwing with customers. If you buy something knowing it can't reproduce sexually and that's what you get then you got what you paid for. Also this is for personal use only for me.
Doing this could be a viable alternative to breeding out a hermie tendency, instead of stoping pollination I could stop fertilization. Again for personal use.
I don't have the space to grow out a hundred s1's to find a keeper without the hermie gene an clone every one of the 100 s1's so I can keep a clone as a mom after finding the keeper. Also to know it's not a hermie mean trying to hermie the whole grow on purpose possibly more than once.
Before anyone asks yes this strain is worth all the work it is not available anymore and is extremely good smoke. It's called galaxy god bud and I am already making s1's to save the genetics if I were to loose my clone but like I said I don't currently have the space to do a keeper run from the 100 or 200 plants I'd want to select from. I do not believe choosing from 10 plants would provide enough of a selection to get a plant true to the mom in every aspect besides hermie but a seedless can be a hermie as it wouldn't be viable anyway.
Doing this could be a viable alternative to breeding out a hermie tendency, instead of stoping pollination I could stop fertilization. Again for personal use.
I don't have the space to grow out a hundred s1's to find a keeper without the hermie gene an clone every one of the 100 s1's so I can keep a clone as a mom after finding the keeper. Also to know it's not a hermie mean trying to hermie the whole grow on purpose possibly more than once.
Before anyone asks yes this strain is worth all the work it is not available anymore and is extremely good smoke. It's called galaxy god bud and I am already making s1's to save the genetics if I were to loose my clone but like I said I don't currently have the space to do a keeper run from the 100 or 200 plants I'd want to select from. I do not believe choosing from 10 plants would provide enough of a selection to get a plant true to the mom in every aspect besides hermie but a seedless can be a hermie as it wouldn't be viable anyway.
Hi guys
GMT is correct when he says mating a tetrapoloid (induced w/colchicine usually) with a normal diploid will produce a triploid. Triploid plants are usually almost completely sterile, and won't produce seeds (they actually do make very few seeds, of various ploidy).
As to the "tend to have low germination rates and poor fertility" part, I don't have any personal experience with triploid cannabis, but here is a quote about triploid hops from the hops chapter of "Chromosome Engineering in Plants: Genetics, Breeding, Evolution":
I think that most of our community have no idea how much things will change post-prohibition. The level of expertise in the "legit" world when it comes to plant breeding is an order of magnitude greater than even the best among us. You will be able to buy packs of super-vigorous, all female, seedless, super-kind pot seeds that are tailored to your precise needs/wants as to smell, taste, potency, high type etc.
SIDE NOTE: Man, I really don't like this built in dictionary feature that italicizes certain terms. Very annoying.
GMT is correct when he says mating a tetrapoloid (induced w/colchicine usually) with a normal diploid will produce a triploid. Triploid plants are usually almost completely sterile, and won't produce seeds (they actually do make very few seeds, of various ploidy).
As to the "tend to have low germination rates and poor fertility" part, I don't have any personal experience with triploid cannabis, but here is a quote about triploid hops from the hops chapter of "Chromosome Engineering in Plants: Genetics, Breeding, Evolution":
I think that most of our community have no idea how much things will change post-prohibition. The level of expertise in the "legit" world when it comes to plant breeding is an order of magnitude greater than even the best among us. You will be able to buy packs of super-vigorous, all female, seedless, super-kind pot seeds that are tailored to your precise needs/wants as to smell, taste, potency, high type etc.
SIDE NOTE: Man, I really don't like this built in dictionary feature that italicizes certain terms. Very annoying.
Attachments
Hi pip313
A nice topic you've started!
But you may have forgotten something very crucial: As you know, triploid plants produce (nearly) no seeds but they produce fruits. What you want the cannabis to do isn't like watermelons without seeds but watermelon plants without watermelons LoL! I am no specialist and hence don't know whether triploid cannabis, which produces achenes (a special form of nuts), would still produce "hollow" nuts (and you'd gain nothing from it) or really the sought-after empty calyxes...
A nice topic you've started!
But you may have forgotten something very crucial: As you know, triploid plants produce (nearly) no seeds but they produce fruits. What you want the cannabis to do isn't like watermelons without seeds but watermelon plants without watermelons LoL! I am no specialist and hence don't know whether triploid cannabis, which produces achenes (a special form of nuts), would still produce "hollow" nuts (and you'd gain nothing from it) or really the sought-after empty calyxes...
K
K.O.Genetics
man if u could come out with buds that can not be seeded no matter wat.. now were talking money in those seeds.. because then u can grow anywere an not worry about hermis or anything.... but then u gota keep it alive TCulture or Clone.
Very interesting topic.
Whether one level of "ploid" is more successful than another, depends on the evolution of that species. ie. what's used to historically. If you really want to blow your mind, look up the status of 3 leaf clovers.
Some species thrive on the triploid level, some don't seem to care how many sets of chromosomes they have, others need lots of sets to continue. It's an interesting topic, but sterile seeds are seeds non the less.
Some species thrive on the triploid level, some don't seem to care how many sets of chromosomes they have, others need lots of sets to continue. It's an interesting topic, but sterile seeds are seeds non the less.
Waldgärtner
Member
Maybe the better way would be to obtain sterile males? It's used in large scale Maize breeding and for other crops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoplasmic_male_sterility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoplasmic_male_sterility
The USDA seems to believe clover is not triploid but either di or tetra based on species refrence: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=67737
You know gmt first you try to derail the thread with talk about successfulness then you mention wrong information about another plant to mislead. Why? What's your motivation? Are you a breeder and if not then stop replying I specifically want to hear from only breeders or people with something constructive to say.
Tripoloid does normally produce seedless. This is how plants mate: chromosomes split based on ploid level a diploid splits to 1 set of chromosomes a tetra splits to 2 sets on both plants then the pollen goes to the flower and the chromosomes pair up to make a embryo. A triploid can't split evenly so it aborts.
You know gmt first you try to derail the thread with talk about successfulness then you mention wrong information about another plant to mislead. Why? What's your motivation? Are you a breeder and if not then stop replying I specifically want to hear from only breeders or people with something constructive to say.
Tripoloid does normally produce seedless. This is how plants mate: chromosomes split based on ploid level a diploid splits to 1 set of chromosomes a tetra splits to 2 sets on both plants then the pollen goes to the flower and the chromosomes pair up to make a embryo. A triploid can't split evenly so it aborts.
Before you try calling someone out, try looking into them a little further
a few copy pastes from the first page of one of my many threads:
Chromosomal rearrangements provide the most likely origin of bryophyte and homosporous pteridophyte heteromorphic sex chromosomes because of their extraordinarily high rates of polyploidy and polysomy (Såstad, in press). Duplication of entire chromosomes results in an immediate addition of epigenetic signals, at least in flowering plants (which is the one taxon from which data currently exists on this phenomenon). In cotton (Gossypium; Malvaceae), one-quarter of the genes tested appeared to be epigenetically silenced immediately following polyploid formation (Adams et al., 2003 ). Adams et al. (2003) tentatively attributed this epigenetic silencing to changes in cytosine methylation and chromatin levels. Similarly, Wang et al. (2004) report that 3–11% of homeologous genes are epigenetically reciprocally silenced following polyploid formation in Arabidopsis (Brassicaceae), and this silencing appears to be caused by changes in cytosine methylation (or the machinery that maintains it, such as dihydroxypropyladenine inhibiting methyltransferase activity). At this juncture, no other studies have been published regarding polyploidy or polysomy epigenetically silencing genes on reciprocal homeologous genes, but this may simply reflect that only a few taxa have yet been examined. However, similar empirical evidence and theoretical arguments for reciprocal silencing of homeologous genes in polyploids was put forwards a dozen years earlier for homosporous pteridophytes (Gastony, 1991 ; Werth and Windham, 1991 ), albeit none of these earlier authors asserted that the silencing was of epigenetic origin. High levels of cytosine methylation following polyploid formation may result in chromosomal rearrangements such as translocations (Lim et al., 2004 ), which may have provided the genesis of sex chromosomes in highly polyploid plant lineages. High levels of cytosine methylation also result in high levels of heterochromatin (Scarbrough et al., 1984 ), especially constitutive heterochromatin (Buzek et al., 1998 ). Nascent additions of constitutive heterochromatin probably made the sex chromosomes of the liverworts Sphaerocarpos donnellii and S. texanus readily visible to Charles Allen almost a century ago (Allen, 1917 , 1919 ). Heteromorphic sex chromosomes can thereby only arise in plants by other means, such as chromosomal rearrangements or gradual acquisition of beneficial genes. Extensive chromosomal rearrangements may themselves be a result of extensive polyploidy, as appears to have occurred in bryophytes and homosporous pteridophytes.
Polyploidy has played a major role in the evolution of flowering plants (RAMSEY and SCHEMSKE 1998; SOLTIS et al. 2003) yet little is known about the genetic mechanisms that contribute to the formation and stability of polyploids. In this study, we sought to characterize the response of A. thaliana to triploidy and to identify genetic variability affecting this response as well as investigate the contribution of triploids to the formation of polyploids.
Triploidy occurs relatively frequently in diploid species of animals and plants, resulting either from the fusion of an accidental 2N gamete to a regular 1N gamete, both produced by diploid individuals, or from crosses between diploid and tetraploid individuals. In humans, 10% of spontaneous miscarriages are due to triploidy (SANKARANARAYANAN 1979), but triploids of fish and amphibians can grow to adults and some species are even fixed in the triploid state (TOCK et al. 2002
Originally Posted by Robert Connel Clark
Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the condition of multiple sets of chromosomes within one cell. Cannabis has 20 chromosomes in the vegetative diploid (2n) condition. Triploid (3n) and tetraploid (4n) individuals have three or four sets of chromosomes and are termed polyploids. It is believed that the haploid condition of 10 chromosomes was likely derived by reduction from a higher (polyploid) ancestral number (Lewis, W. H. 1980). Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield.
Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents.
More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains.
The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing.
Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dip bids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases.
De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anomalies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies, Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid.
The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2-2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979).
Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed.
Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploidy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination.
The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. Coichicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes.
Chromosome numbers are known for at least 184 species
of Trifolium (summarized in Taylor et al., 1979; Zohary
and Heller, 1984; see also Goldblatt and Johnson, 2003).
Over 80% of the examined species are 2nD16, and xD8 is
the inferred base number of the genus (Goldblatt, 1981).
Aneuploidy (2nD10, 12, or 14) is known from 31 species,
11 of which have both aneuploid and diploid (2nD16) or
polyploid counts. Polyploidy is known from 24 species, of
which six are exclusively tetraploid, two are hexaploid, and
one is dodecaploid (12£). Eleven species have both diploid
and polyploid counts, while three have multiple polyploid
counts at the tetraploid level and above
when one species exists naturally as both tetraploid and diploid, and both co-exist, and we know that tetraploids and diploids bred make triploids, and the definition of species is that which can breed naturally, to argue the clovers are never troploids is naive.
Am I a breeder? That status is one that others have to award one who breeds. To lay claim to that title is undignified. However I do breed, to see what I breed, look up some of my threads.
Have I derailed the thread? Only if the purpose of the thread was to advertise your work in the hope of selling it for a purpose it would be unfit for.
a few copy pastes from the first page of one of my many threads:
Chromosomal rearrangements provide the most likely origin of bryophyte and homosporous pteridophyte heteromorphic sex chromosomes because of their extraordinarily high rates of polyploidy and polysomy (Såstad, in press). Duplication of entire chromosomes results in an immediate addition of epigenetic signals, at least in flowering plants (which is the one taxon from which data currently exists on this phenomenon). In cotton (Gossypium; Malvaceae), one-quarter of the genes tested appeared to be epigenetically silenced immediately following polyploid formation (Adams et al., 2003 ). Adams et al. (2003) tentatively attributed this epigenetic silencing to changes in cytosine methylation and chromatin levels. Similarly, Wang et al. (2004) report that 3–11% of homeologous genes are epigenetically reciprocally silenced following polyploid formation in Arabidopsis (Brassicaceae), and this silencing appears to be caused by changes in cytosine methylation (or the machinery that maintains it, such as dihydroxypropyladenine inhibiting methyltransferase activity). At this juncture, no other studies have been published regarding polyploidy or polysomy epigenetically silencing genes on reciprocal homeologous genes, but this may simply reflect that only a few taxa have yet been examined. However, similar empirical evidence and theoretical arguments for reciprocal silencing of homeologous genes in polyploids was put forwards a dozen years earlier for homosporous pteridophytes (Gastony, 1991 ; Werth and Windham, 1991 ), albeit none of these earlier authors asserted that the silencing was of epigenetic origin. High levels of cytosine methylation following polyploid formation may result in chromosomal rearrangements such as translocations (Lim et al., 2004 ), which may have provided the genesis of sex chromosomes in highly polyploid plant lineages. High levels of cytosine methylation also result in high levels of heterochromatin (Scarbrough et al., 1984 ), especially constitutive heterochromatin (Buzek et al., 1998 ). Nascent additions of constitutive heterochromatin probably made the sex chromosomes of the liverworts Sphaerocarpos donnellii and S. texanus readily visible to Charles Allen almost a century ago (Allen, 1917 , 1919 ). Heteromorphic sex chromosomes can thereby only arise in plants by other means, such as chromosomal rearrangements or gradual acquisition of beneficial genes. Extensive chromosomal rearrangements may themselves be a result of extensive polyploidy, as appears to have occurred in bryophytes and homosporous pteridophytes.
Polyploidy has played a major role in the evolution of flowering plants (RAMSEY and SCHEMSKE 1998; SOLTIS et al. 2003) yet little is known about the genetic mechanisms that contribute to the formation and stability of polyploids. In this study, we sought to characterize the response of A. thaliana to triploidy and to identify genetic variability affecting this response as well as investigate the contribution of triploids to the formation of polyploids.
Triploidy occurs relatively frequently in diploid species of animals and plants, resulting either from the fusion of an accidental 2N gamete to a regular 1N gamete, both produced by diploid individuals, or from crosses between diploid and tetraploid individuals. In humans, 10% of spontaneous miscarriages are due to triploidy (SANKARANARAYANAN 1979), but triploids of fish and amphibians can grow to adults and some species are even fixed in the triploid state (TOCK et al. 2002
Originally Posted by Robert Connel Clark
Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the condition of multiple sets of chromosomes within one cell. Cannabis has 20 chromosomes in the vegetative diploid (2n) condition. Triploid (3n) and tetraploid (4n) individuals have three or four sets of chromosomes and are termed polyploids. It is believed that the haploid condition of 10 chromosomes was likely derived by reduction from a higher (polyploid) ancestral number (Lewis, W. H. 1980). Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield.
Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents.
More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains.
The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing.
Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dip bids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases.
De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anomalies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies, Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid.
The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2-2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979).
Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed.
Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploidy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination.
The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. Coichicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes.
Chromosome numbers are known for at least 184 species
of Trifolium (summarized in Taylor et al., 1979; Zohary
and Heller, 1984; see also Goldblatt and Johnson, 2003).
Over 80% of the examined species are 2nD16, and xD8 is
the inferred base number of the genus (Goldblatt, 1981).
Aneuploidy (2nD10, 12, or 14) is known from 31 species,
11 of which have both aneuploid and diploid (2nD16) or
polyploid counts. Polyploidy is known from 24 species, of
which six are exclusively tetraploid, two are hexaploid, and
one is dodecaploid (12£). Eleven species have both diploid
and polyploid counts, while three have multiple polyploid
counts at the tetraploid level and above
when one species exists naturally as both tetraploid and diploid, and both co-exist, and we know that tetraploids and diploids bred make triploids, and the definition of species is that which can breed naturally, to argue the clovers are never troploids is naive.
Am I a breeder? That status is one that others have to award one who breeds. To lay claim to that title is undignified. However I do breed, to see what I breed, look up some of my threads.
Have I derailed the thread? Only if the purpose of the thread was to advertise your work in the hope of selling it for a purpose it would be unfit for.
Clover does not exist in appreciably significant numbers as tripoid according to the usda. Remember they are talking about distinctly different species of clover when talking about different ploid levels. After reading your information all I see is that it would produce many junk plants which means commercially it needs research but for small growers it is useful after sifting through junk.
Your last post is very useful thanks but your first two were your opinion on the information which is different from mine as I dont mind tossing a dozen or two plants. Let people decide for themselves. Or in other words your opinion along with the information is more than appreciated but your opinion without supporting information is useless as we may (do) have different standards for what's acceptable.
Your last post is very useful thanks but your first two were your opinion on the information which is different from mine as I dont mind tossing a dozen or two plants. Let people decide for themselves. Or in other words your opinion along with the information is more than appreciated but your opinion without supporting information is useless as we may (do) have different standards for what's acceptable.
