PLL Club. (if you don't know, now you know)

[The OrigF/clred]

for those that may have some interest in lining their stealth cabinets with metal, Wicks Aircraft Supply is dumping 4' X 4' X .016" 6061-T6 sheet aluminum for $20 per sheet - has to be cut into 24"X48" pcs for shipping or can be rolled, but letting them roll it means something of a headache getting it totally flat again.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircra...um-sheet/6061-t6-aluminum-sheet/sh016x4x4-t6?

 

[fatigues]

apparently as a newbie i don't have the ability to edit a post.

fatigues, if you think about it, your stmt "....[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the fact is that there are older charts which were distributed by Fulham in 2008 through 2010 which specified that the WH7 and WH8 would each run 4x55w PL-Ls. Moreover, 1000bulbs.com knows this, because they were on the pointy end of the stick selling those ballasts during that period of time - and accepting product returns, too." - that stmt would seem to confirm what i've been told way before PL-Ls and again a few years ago with the LED project and independent of Fulham and the experience with the warranty returns. It would seem the earlier charts were mis-printed or typo'd.
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Oh I get your point entirely and I don't disagree with it, either. As I said, I don't recommend it to others. It's just that much of the substance of this thread precedes the change on the chart - so that's why you are seeing all the 4x55w builds using a WH7/WH8. It's not that people were using them in a manner which was inconsistent with the manufacturer's specifications at the time.

However, it certainly wasn't a typo or misprint. They said what they meant and meant what they said at the time that they said it and for about three years thereafter. It was simply a change in the rated settings which deleted the 4x55w configs. My guess is that all of the 4x55w configurations were probably stemming from the popularity of the lights from this website, too.

There was no recall or warning issued by Fulham through the Consumer Products Safety Commission that I am aware of, so that strongly suggests there were no fire incidents attributable to the failure. I certainly did not receive any letter or warning from 1000bulbs.com to that effect -- and they certainly knew I had purchased the ballasts from them, too.

Accordingly, I conclude that Fulham (and perhaps 1000bulbs.com's) motives were purely due to warranty considerations as the lights and ballasts unexpectedly became quite popular with hobby growers and aquarium enthusiasts in 4x55w configurations.

Mine have been rock solid so far. They are all mounted to the outside of 55 gallon plastic barrels that are about 75-77 degrees when the lights inside are on, and the air they run in outside the barrels is a 55 F-65 F degree basement with reasonably good airflow.

In a new PC case PL-L build that I am working on (thanks again for the advice Rives!) I went with a WH3 square compact ballast and a WH5 for about $8 more. I could have selected a WH7, but due to space considerations (with the bonus of being able to switch on just one 55w PLL in seedling stage) I decided against that.

I have been so happy with the performance of my Fulham Workhorse 7's that I did not hesitate for a moment to buy more Fulham ballast products. No matter the rating change, it's been a solid performer for me.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

my background is in metals, working em (i'm a small mfgr) and when i was instructed to keep usage at 75-80% of rated wattage, i assumed similiar to a car engine - ie your car's engine may be rated for 300HP, but if you look at the torque/hp curves, the 300hp is using reached at the upper end of the rpm scale. Most cars usually are operating at 35-60% of full power, which enhances life expectancy. Running a gas engine at full power decreases the life expectancy substantiallly. So the 57-80% rule made or makes sense to me, on a fred flintstone level (which is where most of my thought process operates on).

I wasn't aware fulham had confirmed the previous indication, that does put a different perspective on it.

 

[fatigues]

for those that may have some interest in lining their stealth cabinets with metal, Wicks Aircraft Supply is dumping 4' X 4' X .016" 6061-T6 sheet aluminum for $20 per sheet - has to be cut into 24"X48" pcs for shipping or can be rolled, but letting them roll it means something of a headache getting it totally flat again.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircra...um-sheet/6061-t6-aluminum-sheet/sh016x4x4-t6?

Interesting. Safer than lining it with coroplast I suppose... though coroplast is more reflective, and so much easier to clean and work with! (And black coroplast is awesome for light traps and reservoir lids).

All you "safety first" guys are going to wreck my fun!

 

[rives]

rives - appreciate you're responding - curious to ask though, is what i've always been told re power supplies, ie run them max at 75-80% of their ratings, is that an electrical standard or were the engineer we worked with and my buds just being conservative?

tks in advance

That is a pretty good rule of thumb to go by. For instance, there is the NEC 80% rule regarding circuit breaker applications for continuous usage. It keeps you in a comfortable range with some allowance for inconsistencies in manufacturing, swings in utility voltages, etc. Running anything up against the red line on a consistent basis is poor practice.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

Interesting. Safer than lining it with coroplast I suppose... though coroplast is more reflective, and so much easier to clean and work with! (And black coroplast is awesome for light traps and reservoir lids).

All you "safety first" guys are going to wreck my fun!

i was thinking of it in terms of fireproofing the interior of a wooden stealth cabinet. Shimmed or spaced off the actual interior walls 1/8" or more. Plus a lot of folks aren't aware, alum can be polished pretty bright, approaching chrome - wouldn't reach the reflectivity of miro-4 aluminum, but pretty close at a pittance of the price of miro.
$20 for a 4'X4' sheet or $1.25 sq ft

6061-T6 isn't going to be very malatable, ie you're not going to bend a 90 degree turn in it, but at only .016 it might be workable. I've got some thin 2"X2" alum angle that i'll use, and rivet the sheet to the angle at the corners of the cabinet.

 

[fatigues]

i was thinking of it in terms of fireproofing the interior of a wooden stealth cabinet.

I got it the first time. Hence the "safety first".

Seeing as both you and Rives seem to know more about aluminum than me, as a side question, if I am looking to replace the back of a PC case with custom fabricated 2mm aluminum, what "should" the price of that piece of metal cost? Assume 24" tall by 8.75" wide, with bends on the part where it would attach to the case of about another .5" on the long sides. Is this sort of custom work stupidly expensive?

 

[The OrigF/clred]

i don't do a lot with alum sheet, in fact, hardly anything but that small a pc, you're not going to find wholesale

you might try SH025X2X4-3003

(2nd choice down at http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/viewitems/aircraft-aluminum-sheet/3003-h14-aluminum-sheet?

btw, the part number above is the size, ie 025" X 2' X 4'

the 3000 series are pretty workable (easy to bend), you should be able to those turns yourself

if you're going to hang any weight to the back side, ie ballasts, you'll probably have to add some doubles, like 3/4" wide, 1/8" thick strips on the back side of where you're bolting or screwing the ballasts to

another source might be mcmaster.com - they have literally everything under the sun, from the mundane (nuts & bolts) to the exotic (3200F ceramic caulk, silicone tapes, caulks, hoses you name it). Their paper catalog is over 3500 pages. Their pricing is going to be retail as well, but what they sell is availability and service - they've got warehouses around the country and if the order is placed before 2:00PM it usually ships the same day - can't tell you how many times i've ordered (ups ground) and had it here 2 days later. They might have smaller sheet pcs

i just checked them, and they show a 12" X 24" pc of the same .025" 3003 alum for $6.58, so that might be your best bet

 

[The OrigF/clred]

i hate typing on a laptop with a touch pad,

above, where i said "...[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]you'll probably have to add some doubles..." that should say "doublers"
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[City Twin]

Ditto on McMaster. (US location) Haven't seen a paper cat. for decades but their web cat. is very nice to navigate with a little use.

 

[McNerdius]

upgrade

upgrade

already put this in my journal whatnot, for whatever reason i thought i'd put the info in here as well.

as proud as i was of "Uber McPLL" fixture this setup is just more slick: (the light slides left/right as needed)

​

cab's a bit messy in that shot mind you, in the middle of doing upgrades after all

next to compare specs... i've thrown out mental-math or quickie pen-and paper estimates before, these are based on actual measurements and w/ a calculator, heh. (I call 55w PLL's 4500 lumens and 24w 1500 lumens.) indulge me here im a nerd yo... numbers n shit lol.

first pll grow (duck):
screen size: 14" by 14" (8*8 "screen holes") = 1.36 square feet
lumens (per reservoir): ((4500*3)+(1500*2)) / 2 = 8250
lumens per square foott = 8250/1.36 = 6066 lm/sqft

next grow (egret):
screen size: 12" by 19" (7*11 screen holes) = 1.58 square feet
lumens per res: 4500*3 = 13500
lumens per square foot = 13500/1.58 = 8544 lm/sqft

difference: ~18% more canopy, ~41% more lumens per square foot. the screen size exactly matches the light source: 12" reflector width * 19" long bulb. no bottom-to-top airflow restriction. way more room to work on both sides of the canopy. (misting didnt happen w/ Duck and training was a PITA.) reservoir's access hole is much more accessible - topups will no longer require a submersible pump. i've installed switches for each light. the ballasts will be external to the cab. it's sexy. well, i have a PVC fetish so your thoughts on that bit may differ. they're like macgyver adult lincoln logs.

anyhow time for me to shaddup and go do some vapings.

 

[McNerdius]

that first sentence came out weird weird. what i meant to say was that i thought i'd *already* shared at least some of this info in here. not some kind of hesitance or w/e.

 

[McNerdius]

that first sentence came out weird weird. what i meant to say was that i thought i'd *already* shared at least some of this info in here. not some kind of hesitance or w/e.

dude wtf is wrong with you ? weird weird ? and you're going to go vape *MORE* ?!?!?! get help dude....

 

[mrjuggles]

If the lamps are new, they cool down quite a bit after the first 2 weeks or so of operation. I use a couple of clamp-on fans set up to blow through the gap, and it works well.

Is this for real? I've been quite surprised by how much heat my 55 watters have been producing, if they will cool down a bit I think all my problems will be solved.

How much cooler is 'quite a bit'?

Cheers!

Looking forward to sharing my progress with you soon.

 

[mrjuggles]

Thank you all for the discussion on mixing spectrums with PLLs, I was about to use all 3000k in my cabinet, now I think I have decided on 2 4100k and 2 3000k all 55w, actually one of the 4100s is only 50w I was sent the wrong bulb, and it's about an inch longer than a 55w! Barely fits in my cab.

Anyways, I decided to place the 2 4100s in the center, and the 3000s on each side, my reasoning is I'm planning on going perpetual, so the plants in the center will be younger and hopefully stretch a bit less directly under the 4100s, and the plants nearer harvest will be along the outside walls getting some of each. I cannot wait to see how this turns out, hopefully I'll be experimenting with some 5000k and 6500k down the line, just a bit harder to get them where I'm at.

 

[fatigues]

Is this for real? I've been quite surprised by how much heat my 55 watters have been producing, if they will cool down a bit I think all my problems will be solved.

I am not so sure that this is real at all. It's possible, but I can't say as I have noticed any marked reduction in heat from my lamps after the point when they are "fresh", as it were. Mind you, I can't say as I have actually LOOKED FOR IT, either.

So...maybe?

In any event, a few months into the grow, at the socket, (which is where the 55w lamps are hottest) you will see temps of about 160-165F. If your cooling efforts are modest, they should be focused there.

At the tip of the bulb at the U bend, you will see temps of about 85-89. Mid way on the lamp, the temps are a little warmer than the tip - but still in the 88-90 degree range.

If your active cooling can lower the temps in your cab/box/tent/space by 10-12 degrees F, you are golden.

The temps from 55w PLL lamps are lower than the temps created by a curly 42 watt CFL at just about any point on the bulb. These temps should be relatively easy for you to cool.

 

[mrjuggles]

I am not so sure that this is real at all. It's possible, but I can't say as I have noticed any marked reduction in heat from my lamps after the point when they are "fresh", as it were. Mind you, I can't say as I have actually LOOKED FOR IT, either.

So...maybe?

In any event, a few months into the grow, at the socket, (which is where the 55w lamps are hottest) you will see temps of about 160-165F. If your cooling efforts are modest, they should be focused there.

At the tip of the bulb at the U bend, you will see temps of about 85-89. Mid way on the lamp, the temps are a little warmer than the tip - but still in the 88-90 degree range.

If your active cooling can lower the temps in your cab/box/tent/space by 10-12 degrees F, you are golden.

The temps from 55w PLL lamps are lower than the temps created by a curly 42 watt CFL at just about any point on the bulb. These temps should be relatively easy for you to cool.

Thank you very much for this info, I just took a metal probe thermometer to the tip of one of my new 4100k bulbs and it got up to 107F, so hopefully there is something to them getting cooler with use.

 

[rives]

Yep, it's real. You can find numerous mentions of it earlier in the thread. My PL-L fixture uses 6 lamps side-by-side, and when I initially started using it, the temps were a bit higher than I wanted. 2-3 weeks later, no changes in the setup, the temps dropped about 5 degrees. Since then, when I change lamps in that fixture I've introduced one new lamp at a time to keep things down to a dull roar.

 

[Stereotypo]

Ikea Malm Dresser Vert Mini Cab, 660w PLL 3000 and 4100

 

[The OrigF/clred]

stereotypo - nice looking setup. i helped a bud assemble a six lamp PL-L lamp, 55@ tubes same as you. Haven't noticed any issues with heat, but he's got some 70MM fans blowing directly onto the base area of the tubes. I like the even spray of light, and while the next assessment is subjective, i swear it (6 tubes at 55W) throws more light down than another light housing he's got that has six 65W curly tubed CFLS - same size housing (24X24") for both, and both have similiar DYI reflectors fabbed from fiberglass with a layer of the mylar film bonded on the reflector side. But to my eye, looking down at the leaves, with both lamps same distance from plant tops (4-6"), the PL-Ls show stronger light on the plants.

Only problem or complaint, is the interference with AM radio signal. Have you had any issues with interference?

we've tried everything, spacing on the ballasts (fulham workhorse 8s), all wiring is shielded inside a metal raceway or in the alum "panel" box he built to house the ballasts & switches

just curious as i'm considering these for my own grow room (for vegging, and supplimental on flower).