PLL Club. (if you don't know, now you know)

[Doji!]

i got my stuffs in today

10 ballasts and lights and all misc stuff to wire it all

5 x 2700 and 5 x 6000 36 watts.

i will be mounting those into my pc, and hoping to fit 3-5 of them in there.
tho i will have to keep an eye on the temps as im sure these will generate some heat inside such a small space

The ballasts ill be mounted to the metal of the case and the lamps below that .
But i figured i need some form of divider to split up the space with the ballasts to
make the temperatures easier to manage if i end up fitting 5 instead of 3.

i was thinking of using wood as a divider, and mount the 2G11's on there.

tho I'm not sure if the heat produced by the light, especially near the base of the light
is going to be a problem for a wooden plate.

Ill be using this to guide me through the wiring:


These happen to be similar to the parts i ordered so i don't expect any problems there

Yay... Soon ill be ready for the 1st test grow

 

[rives]

i was thinking of using wood as a divider, and mount the 2G11's on there.

tho I'm not sure if the heat produced by the light, especially near the base of the light
is going to be a problem for a wooden plate.

It would be far safer to use metal, both from a flammability standpoint and for grounding.

 

[Doji!]

hehe, i ran out of metal plating, so ill have to find something that will do the job.

i was first thinking acrylic since i have that in abundance, but i figure the heat will
deform / melt the stuff.


well, On a hunt for a bit of metal that can cover a 450*195mm

 

[Twist1]

PLLs look pretty awesome - I was thinking of running them for a while, until I saw what the vert guys were doing with small HIDs. I still really like the idea of running a vert HID in the centre, with vert PLLs in the four corners of a cab - plants completely surrounded and bathed in light

 

[Mr Jay]

Crap, okay, now I learned how to post pictures on this site.

Here's the cab with the girls in it. The four up front are autos, two MI5 x Bad Betty on the left and two Chronic ryders on the right. Behind them are five bonsai moms from the last photo grow.

There they are! The best ones will be kept and the rest released into the wild.

Thank you very much for teaching me how to do this, it has saved me massive space and allowed me to collect varied genetics for my palate.

 

[Mr Jay]

PL-L club slogan suggestion.

GET BENT !

Sweet idea, get bent McNerdius!

 

[McNerdius]

fini

fini

Here he is, with much might, and much light. 83% of my SCROG canopy is directly underneath a reflector. Lumens per square foot will be in the 6000's (will be tweaking screen dimensions next grow; initial lumens != mean lumens)

I cant wait to see how my plants do. I really would like to start ranting and raving about how effing perfect PL-L is for SCROG, and have more personal experience to shove down the throats of a couple HID fanboys in particular that i deal with on IRC. Till then, i'll just keep my eye on the interwebs for others' pll/scrog experiences.

pll dwc scrog ftw.

 

[Devilman]

Hey All, I'm currently building a small cab using PLL's for lighting (Have been taking pics and will upload / make a build thread in a few days), but I have a few questions which I'm sure have probably been covered already, but I would like to re-ask them for (hopefully) the most up-to-date info

Quick info on the box.. its built on an old cupboard, which I have divided in half and sectioned off a "grow chamber" while having all the ventilation ducted, giving a grow area of approx 2.5sqft. Planning to drop 4x 55w PLL's in (in a kind of "cooltube" duct) for hopefully around 7700 lumen/sqft.

I'm only going to be flowering in the box (planning on running a sog going 12/12 straight from rooted clone) so I'm wondering about what kind of light spectrum is prefered? Is it still best to aim for 2700K / 3000K for all tubes, or is a mix better? Ive heard the Phillips 4100K mentioned a few times, worth using, or better to stick to the standard 2700/3000K?

Secondly, due to the nature of the ducting etc.. I wasn't planning on fitting any reflectors as such, but to have the lamps mounted below some white-covered MDF board (like old 1970's kitchen cabinets). I realize I will loose some efficiency from not having proper reflectors, but hopefully not too much?

Is this unwise (electrical safety, nothing to earth to), I figured it would be pretty safe tbh, the lamps are enclosed well away from hands etc.. and obviously would never be worked on / interacted with without them being switched off and I would of course still ensure the ballasts themselves had an earth.

Cheers all

 

[fatigues]

I'm only going to be flowering in the box (planning on running a sog going 12/12 straight from rooted clone) so I'm wondering about what kind of light spectrum is prefered? Is it still best to aim for 2700K / 3000K for all tubes, or is a mix better? Ive heard the Phillips 4100K mentioned a few times, worth using, or better to stick to the standard 2700/3000K?

Sometimes theory does not match up with fact on the ground. You learn, you adapt, you modify your approach and try again.

Here's my experience:

Last time I ran 440w of PL-L in a 55 gallon barrel (an 8 light custom variation of the High-Pod), I switched out the 4100k bulbs for 2700k during flowering.

That seemed to be the logical thing to do and the prevailing wisdom on ICM was to do that so of course that's what I did.

I cannot be sure, but it appeared to me that the lumen intensity from these brand new 2700k bulbs was significantly down from the 4100k lights. The plant did not seem to appreciate the spectrum change either and the grow was a poor yielder and was quite disappointing I'd have to say.

While I might run 4x 2700k in flower along side 4x 4100k at the same time should I use the PiLLar barrel again, there is NO WAY that I would run all 8 at 2700k. I learned my lesson on that one the hard way.

 

[Womyn]

fatigues:
From my experience, mixing spectrums is a must with PLL's (and most lights, actually, but fluros tend to have very narrow light spectrums so mixing is even more important). My plants performed very well under two 2.7k 55 watters and one 6.5k 55 watter. It shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio between low and high spectrum lights, more like 2-1 in favour of low or even 3-1.

Devilman:
If the lamps have proper ventilation or at least aren't confined in a very small space, they won't get so hot as to cause a fire. You shouldn't have flammable materials near electrical equipment whatever the situation. I didn't use a reflector in my grow and it worked great, it's just slightly less effective. If the cabinet walls are white, it should be okay. I suggest hanging the bulbs a few centimeters below the board for better heat exchange and to allow light to reflect better without hitting the lamp. It's as close to reflector efficiency as you can get without using a reflector .

 

[Cabinet Ninja]

I too have found that having mixed spectrums is best when using PLL's.

I initially had 2x 27k bulbs for my flowering chambers but I found the bud to be way too airy and light.

I now run 1x 27k and 1x 65k bulb and get nice compact buds. This also helps internodal space during veg and flowering.

 

[fatigues]

fatigues:
From my experience, mixing spectrums is a must with PLL's (and most lights, actually, but fluros tend to have very narrow light spectrums so mixing is even more important). My plants performed very well under two 2.7k 55 watters and one 6.5k 55 watter. It shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio between low and high spectrum lights, more like 2-1 in favour of low or even 3-1.

Not too sure about the requirement of low to high. I think, to be fair, that the jury is very much out on that.

There are a large number of successful all 4100k veg/bloom grows on ICM. So I think the evidence points against a requirement to mix on that basis.

The negative evidence against lower spectrum PLL grows is rather high. I would agree that the number of successful ALL 2700 or3000k blooms reported on ICM so far is approaching ZERO.

My point: I wouldn't be afraid to go with all 4100k mid-spectrum through to harvest, but I sure as hell wouldn't do it with all lower spectrum bulbs.

 

[Devilman]

Thanks for the info Fatigues / Cab-Ninja / Womyn.

I was starting to wonder if this thread had died, had no response for ages lol.

Interesting to know that running all 2700/3000k is out of the question, makes me wonder whether its better to have a mix of 2700k and 6500k, or run all 4000k as others have done.

I'm having 4 lights in my cab, so its not really feasible to get a 2 - 1 ratio and trying to get a 3-1 I think would be a bit pointless due to lamp spacing etc.. so Im trying to figure out whether to run all 4000k or 2x 2700k and 2x 6500k or something else lol.


Womyn : as far as ventilation goes, it should be fine, the lamps are enclosed within a ventilated duct and have approx 1inch of airspace both above and below the lamp for airflow, so hopefully things shouldn't get too hot.

I've been trying to get my build thread up-to-date recently but keep getting delays when trying to finish the cab (mainly paint and glue drying lol) Hopefully in the next few days I'll grab some more pics etc.. and get it updated for people to see

 

[fatigues]

I'd be very interested in seeing your build Devilman. I love PL-L grows. I don't know why - I just do. There is something honest - yet earnest - about them in terms of a personal grow. I have to admit that I really dislike twisty CFL grows - far too ghetto for my tastes. PL-Ls seem to be a far more serious approach to the whole thing, while avoiding the heat problems with HID. (I have lots of HID lights, but for a microgrow they often cause more problems then they are worth).

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of experienced micro-growers who plod along diligently using twisties. But for every one of them, there seem to be 10 kids with $40 dollars spent at WalMart on some bulbs, a timer, power bar and a roll of aluminum foil. Drives me nuts!

PL-Ls show more dedication and a serious approach to a microgrow in a way that a twisty just doesn't.

I have always wanted to do a top-shelf PC Case build since Aerohead did one here years back. I have decided to take the plunge and do my own very elaborate PC case build this fall and will be running 3x55w PL-L in it. My plan is to go with 2x55@ 6500k +1x55w@4100k for veg. For flowering I will probably go with 2x55@2700k and 1x55 @ either 6500k or 4100k. Not sure yet. I will have to see how the plants respond at the time I guess.

I must admit that there is a 10,000k 55w bulb (supposedly mostly daylight and not a full-on blue Actinic) in the local aquarium shop that has me wondering though. Might be I can control some stretch with one of those in veg. Hmmm.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

been lurking here for awhile, and this is basically my first post. I've been reading thru this thread, from it's beginning and love it. Lot of good info in this thread and especially like rives hybrid PL-L/LED fixture (hats off on a very professional execution).

I'm an older fart and just want to throw something out for everyone's consideration, and that is safety.

I noticed a lot of builds using the electrical equipment mounted on wood or near wood, and i think it was rives that mentioned to avoid wood - i just want to emphasize it with some examples cause i think most folks don't think about what can happen when an electical component goes south.

1) A bud and i both bought intermatic digital timers (mod DT620), economically priced (@ $22 each). My bud's sparked & melted down - luckily he was home and smelt the burning plastic housing. It had dropped or dripped burning plastic on the wooden floor before the surge protector he'd plugged it into, flipped off. I went online, spoke to intermatic and finally got a user friendly "CSR" to answer some questions - while those timers are described as rated for 15 amps, he suggested i "upgrade" to the DT620CL, which ran $10 more, without telling me why - i have to assume the DT620's 15 amp rating is a maximum draw rating, but for short periods of time, not 100% of the cycle. BTW - my bud only had a 250 watt total draw on his when it burnt out and melted down.

BTW - when i went on amazon to check on the DT620CL model, i happened to notice a reviewer indicating his DT620 (not the CL model) had done something similiar, when he'd had his christmas tree lights plugged in and on. I have to assume it wasn't drawing anywhere near 250W.

As i'm not electrically literate, i've had to draw on some friends expertise, but one thing i figured out quickly, the older mechanical intermatic timers are housed in small metal panel box type housings - i'm going to those - can be had as cheap as $55-60 per for 120v. But at least if they fail, there's no plastic to catch fire and drip down and 2ndly, whatever sparks occur, if any, they're contained in a fireproof metal housing. but in the meantime, i've put my plastic housed timers inside an old electric panel box, just in case anything goes south, it's inside a metal container.

The ballasts, while i don't know what they do when they fail, ie if a melt down is possible, i'm inclined to keeping them in or on a metal surface, aluminum being my 1st choice, only cause the aluminum, in addition to being fire safe, is also a heat sink and should help keep temps on the ballast down to help prevent a failure.

On the subject of ballast, i keep seeing folks indicating they are going to run 4 55W bulbs on the fulham workhorse 8 rated for 220W. 1st - one of my electrically knowledgeable buds re-inforced what i already knew about power sources - never run them continuous at full rated output, ie 220W draw on a 200W ballast. That 220W draw is simply a peak or spike limit, - but a power supply should be kept at a 75-80% continuous draw max.

On 1000bulbs web, for the fulham workhorse 8 ballast, there's a spec sheet in pdf http://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/fulham-WH8-120-L-specs.pdf, and the 2nd page of the spec sheet is a listing indicating the WH8 is rated for 3 50W or 55W bulbs and is actually the only ballast fulham lists for the CFLs (that from the folks at 1000bulbs.com

for those looking for a wiring diagram for the workhorse 8, on that same spec sheet, fulham indicates their "wiring diagram #25" - if you go to their web, dig around and you'll find a page with all the wiring diagrams listed.

last note in case folks didn't catch it, somewhere in phillips lineup, i noticed they indicated the 40W & 55W bulbs can only be powered by the "electronic" ballasts, while the others (and i assume that means the 50W bulbs also) can be fired by the older style magnetic ballasts. I just tore down an older (40 yr old) flourescent light fixture and almost kept the ballasts to use, until i iread that - figured i'd go with new, known capatible components, again, i'm not electronically literatee.

BTW - the folks at 1000bulbs were really helpful in helping me select (confirm) ballast selection etc.

overall, i do want to add Thanks for a great thread guys

FWIW

elvis has left the bldg

On it is listed

 

[fatigues]

On the subject of ballast, i keep seeing folks indicating they are going to run 4 55W bulbs on the fulham workhorse 8 rated for 220W. 1st - one of my electrically knowledgeable buds re-inforced what i already knew about power sources - never run them continuous at full rated output, ie 220W draw on a 200W ballast. That 220W draw is simply a peak or spike limit, - but a power supply should be kept at a 75-80% continuous draw max.

On 1000bulbs web, for the fulham workhorse 8 ballast, there's a spec sheet in pdf http://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/fulham-WH8-120-L-specs.pdf, and the 2nd page of the spec sheet is a listing indicating the WH8 is rated for 3 50W or 55W bulbs and is actually the only ballast fulham lists for the CFLs (that from the folks at 1000bulbs.com

I've run 4x55w on the Fulham Workhorse 7's many times.

While you have referred to the charts explaining that those charts say you should not be running 4x55w per that chart -- the fact is that there are older charts which were distributed by Fulham in 2008 through 2010 which specified that the WH7 and WH8 would each run 4x55w PL-Ls. Moreover, 1000bulbs.com knows this, because they were on the pointy end of the stick selling those ballasts during that period of time - and accepting product returns, too.

Fulham changed the chart sometime in the later half of 2010 to downgrade the performance of the WH7 and WH8 so that they should be used to only fire 3x55w lamps. The reason for this is that they were getting product returns within the warranty period and so changed the chart to save themselves money. I am not aware of ANY failures having caused a fire hazard of any sort.

I have run 16x55w PL-L lamps (in 4x55w) configurations on four WH7 ballasts without problems for the past three and a half years. While I do not recommend for others to do this -- I have had no problems. Perhaps one of the reasons for this lack of trouble is because my WH7 ballasts are exposed in the open, uncovered in a very cool basement. If they were contained in an enclosure in some manner, it might be otherwise.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

fatigues - while i don't doubt your experience w the WH7s, and i hope your experience them remains the same. But you're throwing in WH7s in and i don't know the specs, wattage rating etc of the WH7s. I'm referring to the recommendation fulham makes on their WH8 spec sheet, which confirmed what i'd learned sometime back about keeping current draw at 75-80% of max rating.

Sometime back (i'm in mfgring) we developed a small product using LEDs, and the elec engineer we were working with said the same thing as my buds, on the power supplies for them, ieto keep the draw at 75% of rating.

maybe rives can step in and confirm or correct me on what i've been told (iirc, he had an electrical engineering background).

 

[The OrigF/clred]

apparently as a newbie i don't have the ability to edit a post.

fatigues, if you think about it, your stmt "....[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the fact is that there are older charts which were distributed by Fulham in 2008 through 2010 which specified that the WH7 and WH8 would each run 4x55w PL-Ls. Moreover, 1000bulbs.com knows this, because they were on the pointy end of the stick selling those ballasts during that period of time - and accepting product returns, too." - that stmt would seem to confirm what i've been told way before PL-Ls and again a few years ago with the LED project and independent of Fulham and the experience with the warranty returns. It would seem the earlier charts were mis-printed or typo'd.

just saying
[/FONT]

 

[rives]

Orig, I agree on all of your points. Grounded metal enclosures allow the circuit breakers/fusing to do their job under ground fault conditions. Regarding mounting on wood, it should be noted that well over 25 years ago, most commercial/industrial insurance companies started required spacers between the fixture and the mounting surface when mounting fluorescent lights to a flammable surface even when the fixture was made from metal.

As far as the amperage ratings of timers, I have posted many times on exactly the point that you are making - the type of load creates entirely different circumstances for the timer contacts to labor under. The easiest type of load to switch is resistive, and this is the rating that most timers are rated for. If they don't specify the type (ie; resistive, capacitive, motor, hp, tungsten, etc), you can safely assume that they are selecting the rating that makes them look best. Inductive loading, like magnetic ballasts or motors, is a very difficult load to start. Capacitive loads, like switching power supplies and electronic ballasts, are even worse for a very short period. If you look at components that have been thoroughly tested and have their ratings published, you will find that these load capacities are frequently a very small fraction of the resistive load ratings.

Regarding the WH7 ratings, I understand that Fulham changed the ratings. Whether you attribute this change to Fulham wanting to save money on warranties or that they simply realized after the product hit the market that it wasn't up to the rigors that they originally thought, the fact is that the ballasts do see a higher failure rate when driving 4x55w lamps. For me, it isn't worth the risk of having a ballast failure when I'm out of town even if you disregard any potential increase in fire danger.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

rives - appreciate you're responding - curious to ask though, is what i've always been told re power supplies, ie run them max at 75-80% of their ratings, is that an electrical standard or were the engineer we worked with and my buds just being conservative?

tks in advance