Green manure or ammend or both?

[neongreen]

So I have a small plot of ground outdoors where I had a couple of plants growing over summer, but they both turned out to be males and got pulled out.

About a month back I emptied 1/2 a bag of left over stable manure on the surface of the plot. Now I'm wondering what would be the best thing to do to improve the soil for next season. I have some green manure seeds, Forage rye and Italian rye grass which I was intending to mix together and sow on the plot. They would then be dug in next spring before planting out.

I could do that, or I could amend the soil, but I don't think I could do both (or perhaps I could?) since I can only sow the green manure up till the end of October.

For amendments I have just gotten a hold of some crushed oyster shells for the first time, and I also have lime, seaweed meal, a little gypsum (not added any to the soil yet), comfrey pellets, bat guano (8-1-1, 1-10-1, and 1-15-1) and one more 80l bag of stable manure. I'm making some compost right now, but it won't be ready till next spring.

I have a soil that has quite a bit of clay in it and is also slightly acidic. I already amended it at the start of summer with lime, lots of manure, seaweed meal, 2 types of bat guano (8-1-1 and 1-15-1), and bone meal.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I would amend it if you are trying to produce larger yields.

 

[Carbon.Chains]

So I have a small plot of ground outdoors where I had a couple of plants growing over summer, but they both turned out to be males and got pulled out.

About a month back I emptied 1/2 a bag of left over stable manure on the surface of the plot. Now I'm wondering what would be the best thing to do to improve the soil for next season. I have some green manure seeds, Forage rye and Italian rye grass which I was intending to mix together and sow on the plot. They would then be dug in next spring before planting out.

I could do that, or I could amend the soil, but I don't think I could do both (or perhaps I could?) since I can only sow the green manure up till the end of October.

For amendments I have just gotten a hold of some crushed oyster shells for the first time, and I also have lime, seaweed meal, a little gypsum (not added any to the soil yet), comfrey pellets, bat guano (8-1-1, 1-10-1, and 1-15-1) and one more 80l bag of stable manure. I'm making some compost right now, but it won't be ready till next spring.

I have a soil that has quite a bit of clay in it and is also slightly acidic. I already amended it at the start of summer with lime, lots of manure, seaweed meal, 2 types of bat guano (8-1-1 and 1-15-1), and bone meal.

Why couldn't you do both ?
The end of October is in something like 5 weeks, that's enough to let the amendments be worked out by the microbes a bit before planting.
The green manure, in my opinion, will have results over a longer period of time and more permanent ones too.
I would amend, lightly (unless you've tested the soil and now how much of what to amend) wait a month and plant the green manure.

 

[h.h.]

Amending clay with oyster shell may result in concrete. If you dig a hole and amend it, you may basically end up with a potted plant with poor drainage. The roots will have little reason to adventure out of the hole.
Post holing may be easier. Fill with amended finished compost. Nothing green, no guano/manure. Use those to topdress. Let the roots grow into the holes, not try to grow out of them.
Raise your beds, don't disturb them more than necessary. Spread more of that manure and let it age. Get a bale of straw and mulch heavily with it. Spread your oyster shell along with a bag of cornmeal. If you don't have worms, add some. Save the guano until you're ready to plant.
If transplanting, you can prepare your holes ahead of time. A little manure or guano won't hurt as long as it has time to "cook" before you plant. Use a pot the same size as your transplant pot to form the holes for a surgical fit. Sprinkle a little of the cornmeal in the hole to help encourage fungal activity. Again give it plenty of time.

 

[SpicySativa]

What's your native soil like?

 

[neongreen]

Thanks for all the very informative replies so far!

I would like to amend and do a green manure, if that'll achieve the best results/yield.

h.h. - I dug the plot deep in early summer, mixing the clay from deep down with lots of manure. As I said, I had plants growing in it for a couple of months before I pulled them, and they grew very well. I barely gave it a week after digging/amending before I planted there without any obvious ill effects. I think I also dug deep enough that if any water collects down there it'll be out of reach of the roots.

Not sure if I can find cornmeal (I assume it's used as an animal feed), but I'll have a look round. I already have fungi growing in the other plot that I have some plants flowering in right now.

I should also mention, I'm also experimenting with "Hugelkultur Beds" - half of each bed is a Hugelkultur Bed.

Used for centuries in Eastern Europe and Germany, hugelkultur (in German hugelkultur translates roughly as “mound culture”) is a gardening and farming technique whereby woody debris (fallen branches and/or logs) are used as a resource.

Often employed in permaculture systems, hugelkultur allows gardeners and farmers to mimic the nutrient cycling found in a natural woodland to realize several benefits. Woody debris (and other detritus) that falls to the forest floor can readily become sponge like, soaking up rainfall and releasing it slowly into the surrounding soil, thus making this moisture available to nearby plants.

Hugelkultur garden beds (and hugelkultur ditches and swales) using the same principle to:

Help retain moisture on site
Build soil fertility
Improve drainage
Use woody debris that is unsuitable for other use

Applicable on a variety of sites, hugelkultur is particularly well suited for areas that present a challenge to gardeners. Urban lots with compacted soils, areas with poor drainage, limited moisture, etc., can be significantly improved using a hugelkultur technique, as hugelkultur beds are, essentially, large, layered compost piles covered with a growing medium into which a garden is planted.

Creating a hugelkultur garden bed is a relatively simple process:

1. Select an area with approximately these dimensions: 6 feet by 3 feet
2. Gather materials for the project:

Fallen logs, branches, twigs, fallen leaves (the “under utilized” biomass from the site). Avoid using cedar, walnut or other tree species deemed allelopathic.
Nitrogen rich material (manure or kitchen waste work well and will help to maintain a proper carbon to nitrogen ratio in the decomposing mass within the hugelkulter bed).
Top soil (enough to cover the other layers of the bed with a depth of 1 – 2”) and some mulching material (straw works well).

3. Lay the logs (the largest of the biomass debris) down as the first layer of the hugelkulter bed. Next, add a layer of branches, then a layer of small sticks and twigs. Hugelkultur beds work best when they are roughly 3 feet high (though this method is forgiving, and there is no fixed rule as to the size of the bed. That is where the “art” comes in!)
4. Water these layers well
5. Begin filling in spaces between the logs, twigs and branches with leaf litter and manure of kitchen scraps.
6. Finally, top off the bed with 1 – 2” of top soil and a layer of mulch.

The hugelkulter bed will benefit from “curing” a bit, so it is best to prepare the bed several months prior to planting time (prepare the bed in the fall for a spring planting, for example, in temperate northern climates), but hugelkultur beds can be planted immediately. Plant seeds or transplants into the hugelkulter bed as you would any other garden bed. Happy hugelkulturing!

http://permaculturenews.org/2010/08...sforming-woody-debris-into-a-garden-resource/

I have not seen any difference in performance between the hugelkultur parts and the non hugelkultur parts so far.

 

[neongreen]

What's your native soil like?

It has quite a shallow (between 1.5-1 foot mostly, but as little as 8 inches in some places) layer of top soil, but what there is is dark and seems to be nice quality. Below that is heavy clay which in some places is also combined with fairly fine shale - a pain in the butt to dig, especially since there are also large rocks dispersed throughout.

I've dug the beds down to at least 4 feet to amend the clay - some of it was taken out completely as there was so much.

 

[h.h.]

Thanks for all the very informative replies so far!

I would like to amend and do a green manure, if that'll achieve the best results/yield.

h.h. - I dug the plot deep in early summer, mixing the clay from deep down with lots of manure. As I said, I had plants growing in it for a couple of months before I pulled them, and they grew very well. I barely gave it a week after digging/amending before I planted there without any obvious ill effects. I think I also dug deep enough that if any water collects down there it'll be out of reach of the roots.

Not sure if I can find cornmeal (I assume it's used as an animal feed), but I'll have a look round. I already have fungi growing in the other plot that I have some plants flowering in right now.

I should also mention, I'm also experimenting with "Hugelkultur Beds" - half of each bed is a Hugelkultur Bed.



http://permaculturenews.org/2010/08...sforming-woody-debris-into-a-garden-resource/

I have not seen any difference in performance between the hugelkultur parts and the non hugelkultur parts so far.

Since you were willing to do the digging, that was your best choice. I wouldn't dig it again, just add to it.
Corn meal works as a compost starter. I think of my mulch as compost. Other meals work as well, but if you have good fungal activity already, it may be redundant. Redigging can interrupt that activity in which case it would help encourage it to restart. White fuzz is good.
Mixed in manure works well for veg. Not so well in the flower stage. You can easily overfeed with no control. Buried green manure can cause a protozoa outbreak. I don't know if regular manure does. Most of the "good" bacteria that you want are near the top surface where they can get plenty of oxygen. That is where you want to feed.
I'll have to read up on Hugelkultur beds. I'm getting ready to try something similar. I have a lot of tree branches to get rid of and I don't believe in hauling them off. It must return to whence it came.

 

[neongreen]

Since you were willing to do the digging, that was your best choice. I wouldn't dig it again, just add to it.
Corn meal works as a compost starter. I think of my mulch as compost. Other meals work as well, but if you have good fungal activity already, it may be redundant. Redigging can interrupt that activity in which case it would help encourage it to restart. White fuzz is good.
Mixed in manure works well for veg. Not so well in the flower stage. You can easily overfeed with no control. Buried green manure can cause a protozoa outbreak. I don't know if regular manure does. Most of the "good" bacteria that you want are near the top surface where they can get plenty of oxygen. That is where you want to feed.
I'll have to read up on Hugelkultur beds. I'm getting ready to try something similar. I have a lot of tree branches to get rid of and I don't believe in hauling them off. It must return to whence it came.

Thanks for reply and advice h.h..

Yes, now that it's dug I'll avoid disturbing the soil as much as possible. So from now on I gently rake in amendments?

Same with me - I had a ton of tree branches and it seemed a lot easier to get rid of at least some of them in a Hugelkultur bed rather than shredding them, which takes for ever.

Here are a couple of pics I took when I was digging bed#3 (the bed that has my females in and is featured in my thread in the outdoor forum - link in my sig). The excavated part in that bed is where I made a Hugelkultur bed, which has a Trainwreak S1 growing in it at the mo - it has been a slow grower since germination so I can't draw any conclusions from that particular bed. Note the step down, which is where the top soil ends and the clay/shale starts.