Cloud in rez from pH raise and P.Silicate...?

[poindexterous]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees a cloudiness form in the nutrient solution when adding high pH additives like pH raise or Pro-Tekt. It looks like underwater smoke. However, it quickly vanishes as soon as the high pH additive is diluted.

So the question I've had for years is: Is the cloudiness a permanent lockout of some element? Or is it just for the few seconds the cloudiness lasts and then it re-absorbs and all is fine? And what is the chemical reaction that causes it? Is it even a lockout at all?

Even diluting my pH raise to a fraction of full strength doesn't prevent it. Maybe 100 to 1 would, but 10 to 1 doesn't

There's certainly no warning on any pH raise I've seen, so you'd think it was not a problem. Dry pH raise like GH's is very strong, almost as alkaline as Crystal Draino, and they say to add it directly to the rez without diluting in water first.

Anyone know for sure?

Thanks!
P

 

[G.O. Joe]

When mixtures of ionic salts dissolve in water, they are no longer what they were. If something insoluble can form from the available cations and anions under the conditions, it will. There are many insoluble silicates and calcium salts, and the silicic acids.

If it's insoluble, it's at least partially locked out for a time, the question is whether that's detrimental or helpful in your particular situation. It's probably worst to precipitate silica in any form at any time as much you can help it. Only the smallest nano-particles of polysilicic acids give up much of the only bioavailable form - bioavailablity drops steeply from there.

 

[CrazyKoala]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees a cloudiness form in the nutrient solution when adding high pH additives like pH raise or Pro-Tekt. It looks like underwater smoke. However, it quickly vanishes as soon as the high pH additive is diluted.

So the question I've had for years is: Is the cloudiness a permanent lockout of some element? Or is it just for the few seconds the cloudiness lasts and then it re-absorbs and all is fine? And what is the chemical reaction that causes it? Is it even a lockout at all?

Even diluting my pH raise to a fraction of full strength doesn't prevent it. Maybe 100 to 1 would, but 10 to 1 doesn't

There's certainly no warning on any pH raise I've seen, so you'd think it was not a problem. Dry pH raise like GH's is very strong, almost as alkaline as Crystal Draino, and they say to add it directly to the rez without diluting in water first.

Anyone know for sure?

Thanks!
P

You're asking multiple questions here. Don't worry as long as you are not mixing concentrates, especially with silicates.

Very low or very high pH affect water as a solute. With regards to pH up, I suspect you are getting localized hydroxide, carbonate, or phosphate precipitate. Diffusion and the high volume of water then allows for the low solubility precipitate to dissolve into the water once again.

With Pro-Tekt you have a different consideration of silicate precipitation, in the absence of significant aluminum, most likely as calcium or magnesium silicate.

Then you have silica-related-compound polymerization. It is not straight forward because there are many chemical species involved with Si. Silicic acid is one example. It is highly soluble in high pH, or abundant OH- to form it's 'desired' 4 tetrahedral bonds. A shift in pH will affect solubility. Any sudden localized precipitation of hydroxide salts, or lowering of pH, will cause polymerization.

In water chemistry, silica and related precipitates as a problem are called silica scale. In higher concentrations, you can expect a one-way polymerization reaction to a colloidal or sol gel, some forms interesting to chemists in the sub-field of gel or polymer chemistry or materials but detrimental to you. You can get an approximate understanding of gels as an intermediate between a suspension and a solution. Basically, with the higher n polymer chains, you would expect 'cloudiness'.

For the purposes of this forum, it means with Pro-tekt, mixing it in first into d-H2O/RO water/low-PPM unchlorinated water, keeping the pH high when the protekt is added in, not mixing concentrates, and using separate measuring cups if you don't want to be scrubbing off scale. If you're dumping concentrates together, you will be losing a lot of the silicates on the side of the measuring cup and/or uptake by the plant will probably be poor. Beyond that, if you have resources, other chemicals and sonication may be of interest to maximize uptake, assuming you want to maximize low-n concentration, but I would say that is much more work than is justified by the benefit.

 

[CrazyKoala]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees a cloudiness form in the nutrient solution when adding high pH additives like pH raise or Pro-Tekt. It looks like underwater smoke. However, it quickly vanishes as soon as the high pH additive is diluted.

So the question I've had for years is: Is the cloudiness a permanent lockout of some element? Or is it just for the few seconds the cloudiness lasts and then it re-absorbs and all is fine? And what is the chemical reaction that causes it? Is it even a lockout at all?

Even diluting my pH raise to a fraction of full strength doesn't prevent it. Maybe 100 to 1 would, but 10 to 1 doesn't

There's certainly no warning on any pH raise I've seen, so you'd think it was not a problem. Dry pH raise like GH's is very strong, almost as alkaline as Crystal Draino, and they say to add it directly to the rez without diluting in water first.

Anyone know for sure?

Thanks!
P

If you're not dealing with a polymerizing species, don't worry. There is no such thing as lockout as a chemistry term. You basically are seeing ions re-combining in different ways, and some are more soluble in water than others, but if you are seeing the cloudiness go away, that means it re-dissolved. i.e. "no lockout".

The temporary cloudiness simply has to do with a localized concentration is that is temporarily too high. Then diffusion allows for the concentration of that 'less soluble' species to decrease to where it dissolves again.

With polymerization (silicates/protekt is an example) and with precipitates that do not re-dissolve (the cloudiness does not go away and/or you get sedimentation), you may have a problem. The polymerization problem may not be readily visible. The bio-side is not something I have any specialization in (inorganic), but adequate polymer knowledge, yes, and what I am saying is, you won't be able to tell the various short poly-mers and the plant undoubtedly treats them differently. How exactly, I'm not the one to tell you-- ask a plant bioengineer/biochemist. Logic would suggest the single monomers would be ideal for uptake.

This may be a starting point if you have more of an interest. I found it interesting:

http://www.uvm.edu/~dbarring/241/prychid2004.pdf

P.s. I'm sure you know, but don't use draino hydroxide as it contains other surfactants. It probably will also cause there to be an excess of sodium in solution which my amateur bio knowledge tells me will cause nutrient 'lockout'.

 

[poindexterous]

Thanks CK, I appreciate the info!

P

 

[Buddler]

If you figure out how much protect u need to get ph spot on then just add it to rez first then add nutes no cloudiness and ph should drop right on point.works for me in coco.Bud

 

[Snow Crash]

From what I understand it is a temporary precipitation of Calcium Sulfate.

Add the Silicate supplement first, especially before base nutrients and/or Epsom Salt (or Cal-Mag Supplements) and you should not see a very major cloud do to less calcium and sulfur being available to bond together. I am sure there are some other elements at play here (especially bicarbonates) but that is how it was presented to me. Start with the Silica, allow the pH to stabilize throughout the solution, then add your other stuff.

2.5ml to 3ml per gallon of Protekt or ProSilicate is plenty.

 

[dizzlekush]

You're asking multiple questions here. Don't worry as long as you are not mixing concentrates, especially with silicates.

Very low or very high pH affect water as a solute. With regards to pH up, I suspect you are getting localized hydroxide, carbonate, or phosphate precipitate. Diffusion and the high volume of water then allows for the low solubility precipitate to dissolve into the water once again.

With Pro-Tekt you have a different consideration of silicate precipitation, in the absence of significant aluminum, most likely as calcium or magnesium silicate.

Then you have silica-related-compound polymerization. It is not straight forward because there are many chemical species involved with Si. Silicic acid is one example. It is highly soluble in high pH, or abundant OH- to form it's 'desired' 4 tetrahedral bonds. A shift in pH will affect solubility. Any sudden localized precipitation of hydroxide salts, or lowering of pH, will cause polymerization.

In water chemistry, silica and related precipitates as a problem are called silica scale. In higher concentrations, you can expect a one-way polymerization reaction to a colloidal or sol gel, some forms interesting to chemists in the sub-field of gel or polymer chemistry or materials but detrimental to you. You can get an approximate understanding of gels as an intermediate between a suspension and a solution. Basically, with the higher n polymer chains, you would expect 'cloudiness'.

For the purposes of this forum, it means with Pro-tekt, mixing it in first into d-H2O/RO water/low-PPM unchlorinated water, keeping the pH high when the protekt is added in, not mixing concentrates, and using separate measuring cups if you don't want to be scrubbing off scale. If you're dumping concentrates together, you will be losing a lot of the silicates on the side of the measuring cup and/or uptake by the plant will probably be poor. Beyond that, if you have resources, other chemicals and sonication may be of interest to maximize uptake, assuming you want to maximize low-n concentration, but I would say that is much more work than is justified by the benefit.

Just have to mention that the highlighted part is incorrect. The issure r.e. silica causing cloudiness has to do with silicon ionizing and then polymerizing with namely Ca at pH >8. At pH below that sodium silicate and potassium silicate additives form monosilicic ( a.k.a. orthosilicic) acid in the water and it does not react or cause cloudiness.

So keep the pH between 4-8 to keep the Si in monosilicic acid form (the form in which plants absorb Si) to prevent the cloudiness from happening.

Sources:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...08xE7w&sig=AHIEtbToOBuwgUQqzp_H6-nEb9uEqiNC9w
http://pdf.lookchem.com/pdf/22/5f918ad9-bcfb-47c8-b7de-97bb5ef669c2.pdf


-------------


Id also like to mention that the article that CrazyKoala linked to has to do with monocotyledons only, while cannabis is a dicotyledon. Monocotyledons have much greater requirements of Si than dicotyledons, while dicotyledons have much higher requirements of Ca and B. They also differ in their ability to uptake and utilization, and Si plays a much more vital role in cell wall strength in monocotyledons than in dicotyledons. This has to do with the fact that the 2 plant groups have different cell wall structure with dicotyledons having lots of cell wall pectin while monocotyledons have comparably very little cell wall pectin.

In short the article will be of no use if trying to understand the biology r.e. cannabis and Si.

Sources:
Marschner's mineral nutrition of higher plants - Third Edition
Marschner

Chemistry and Biology of Boron
Loomis and Durst

 

[Avenger]

Just have to mention that the highlighted part is incorrect. The issure r.e. silica causing cloudiness has to do with silicon ionizing and then polymerizing with namely Ca at pH >8. At pH below that sodium silicate and potassium silicate additives form monosilicic ( a.k.a. orthosilicic) acid in the water and it does not react or cause cloudiness.

So keep the pH between 4-8 to keep the Si in monosilicic acid form (the form in which plants absorb Si) to prevent the cloudiness from happening.

you sure about that DK?

if that was true, wouldn't they just add acid to the bottle of pro-tekt?

 

[dizzlekush]

Pretty damn sure buddy, check the sources if you're dubious. That's why I provide them. I had a better source that went over all this in a much clearer manner but Im having trouble finding it ATM. Silicate chemistry is very complicated and frankly beyond my current understanding, but it seems to me that at the pH range of 4-8 silicic acids form stabilized unionized monosilicic acid and that below that range non-ionic polysilicic acids form that cannot be absorbed by the plant and above that range ionic polysilicic acids form that are highly reactive and again, cannot be absorbed by the plant. That's if I understand the chemistry correctly...

Not really following your logic on adding acid to a stock solution of potassium silicate though.... they might dilute the shit out of it, add a little choline chloride, borax and sodium molybdate, call it FaSilitator and sell it for $150 a liter.

 

[Avenger]

Precipitation and Gelation Reactions

In essence, these reactions involve the destabilization of liquid silicate solutions. When the pH value of a liquid silicate is modified to a point below 10.7, the silica is destabilized and the system polymerizes or gels.

As the alkali is neutralized (pH decreases), soluble silicates polymerize, molecular weight increases, and the silica becomes insoluble. The reaction results in a precipitation of silica, a colloidal silica suspension, or a continuous gel, depending on the silica concentration. pH neutralization is one method of polymerizing silica and is widely used in industry with feedstock silicate to manufacture colloidal silicas, silica gels, and precipitated silica.

source:
http://www.pqcorp.com/pc/EMEA/Technical-Service/Silicate-Chemistry

The stability of a sodium silicate solution depends to a
large extent on pH. All sodium silicate solutions will
polymerize to form a silica gel when the pH value is
reduced below 10.
Reaction with acids
(sol and gel formation)
Sodium silicates react with acidic compounds.
When solutions of relatively high concentrations are
acidified, the soluble silicate anions polymerize to form
a gel. When relatively dilute concentrations of dissolved
silica are acidified, activated colloidal silicate solutions
(sols) can be formed. The degree of polymerization of
the silicate anions of sodium silicate solutions depends
on solution concentrations, temperature, pH and other
factors. As figure 5 shows, gelation occurs most rapidly at
neutral pH.
Time-delayed gelation (unstable sols) can occur in pH
ranges of 8-10 and 2-5. Gel formation is generally very
rapid in the intermediate range (5-8). Colloidal silica sols
can be prepared from sodium silicates through ion
exchange, dialysis and other means.

Source:
http://www.pqcorp.com/Portals/1/docs/Sodium and Potassium silicates brochure ENG oct 2004.pdf

I don't understand it either, but don't those two quotes contradict what you are saying?

I know from hands on experience, that I have seen the gel form when the water pH is near neutral, and I make even a 50:1 concentrate. If I get the pH up to >10,before I add the potassium silicate, I don't see the gel form. It always gets cloudy in the concentrate, but it clears somewhat with time.

So with this data, I have generally recommended that the potassium silicate be added to the res first, before you lower the pH and/or add any water soluble fertilizers.

potassium silicate-->adjust pH to near the target--> add any other water soluble fertilizer

that's how I have been telling people to mix it.


can you set me straight?

 

[dizzlekush]

source:
http://www.pqcorp.com/pc/EMEA/Technical-Service/Silicate-Chemistry




Source:
http://www.pqcorp.com/Portals/1/docs/Sodium%20and%20Potassium%20silicates%20brochure%20ENG%20oct%202004.pdf

I don't understand it either, but don't those two quotes contradict what you are saying?

I know from hands on experience, that I have seen the gel form when the water pH is near neutral, and I make even a 50:1 concentrate. If I get the pH up to >10,before I add the potassium silicate, I don't see the gel form. It always gets cloudy in the concentrate, but it clears somewhat with time.

So with this data, I have generally recommended that the potassium silicate be added to the res first, before you lower the pH and/or add any water soluble fertilizers.

potassium silicate-->adjust pH to near the target--> add any other water soluble fertilizer

that's how I have been telling people to mix it.


can you set me straight?

O.K. It seems that we're both right to a certain extent. We really need a chemist in here though. Maybe one of us should hit up Squiggly from THC Farmer

At concentrated levels, without the presence of other ions (e.g. in stock solutions), Silica solubility seems to increase with increasing pH. However at diluted levels, in the presence of ions (e.g. working solution), silica solubility seems to be in that 4-8 pH range again [see thumbnailed graphs]. As I understand it, at high pH (>8) silicic acid turns anionic, making it incredibly soluble and stable with ITSELF at concentrated levels, but seems to be highly reactive to cations in this anionic state (at high pH).

So r.e. keeping silica soluble and non reactive, keep the stock solutions super alkaline, keep the working solutions (which have other reactive ions besides Si) in the neutral range.

http://www.snowpure.com/docs/resintech-silica-iwc99.pdf

 

[dizzlekush]

Alright got my answer from Squiggly. Basically he confirms my assumptions, albeit in a somewhat confusing manner. I've emphasized certain lines to attempt to make it more clear.

Keep pH high (>9.5) when silicic acids and K/Na are the only ions in solution and when the desired concentration of soluble Si is very high (i.e. stock solutions). When you start putting divalent cations in there (e.g. working solutions) the concentration of soluble Si must be kept low regardless of pH, and pH must be kept between 4-8.5.

P.S. Squiggly mentions magnesium salts simply because they were used in the experimental info mentioned (2nd graph in post above). In all likelihood the primary cation that Si precipitates out with is Ca.

Squiggly:

"When you're talking about this anionic transformation, it happens in a stepwise fashion--in effect the stuff acts as a weak base. So you start with, at very high pH, SiO3 (2-). As you lower the pH some of this converts to HSiO3 (1-) by abstracting a proton from solution. So you end up with a ratio of HSiO3(1-)/SiO3(2-) which increases with decreasing pH. When the ratio collapses and you end up with 100% SiO3(1-) in solution if you decrease the pH even further you will start a new ratio of H2SiO3(solid)/SiO3(1-) and the stuff will start to precipitate out.

If you look at the charge on magnesium it's 2+, so what's happening here is that in the HSiO3(1-) form the anion can effectively chelate the magnesium (2 equivalents per Mg cation). but once you have SiO3(2-) in solution the anion and cation can start to form strong ionic bonds, which can cause them to precipitate out.

Adding other cations/anions to solution can muddle the predictive process here.

If you look at your second graph you can still have a pH above 8.00 and keep the stuff soluble. When you hit a pH around 8.75 the HSiO3(1-) starts giving up protons and converting to the (2-) form. That's when you'll start to get magnesium salts.


To be clear, this is probably a faulty explanation because Sillicic acid actually acts very strangely in solution and forms complex structures which interact with each other. It really is weird stuff. When you add a bunch of other stuff to it the thermodynamics become totally unworkable from a theoretical point of view--and that's why experimentation becomes necessary.

So while these transformations/ratios I've described might not accurately depict what is actually happening--this is the general thermodynamic form you are looking at from an idealized perspective.

I couldn't find pKa/pKb values for the stuff so it's tough to say at what pH what is happening. I think the general idea here is to keep the concentrations low to avoid all of this mess. The sweet spot for maximum solubility, if you superimpose both of these graphs, appears to be somewhere in the 8.5-8.75 pH range. "

 

[G.O. Joe]

We've had this discussion though. The only important thing is biologically available silica, not dissolved silica or polysilicic acid that was but is no longer cloudy but is still biologically locked out except for the little fragments being slowly hydrolyzed away.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248842&page=2
There, my chemistry book gave 100 ppm, and the patent said 1 ppm. Or, you can do something freaky like in the patent.

 

[Avenger]

Diluted potassium silicate solution readily depolymerizes into various silicabased
species loosely associated with potassium ions. Concentrations used in foliar sprays and nutrient solutions are
dominated by silicic acid, which is readily absorbed by plants. Dissolved potassium and silica species are indistinguishable
from their naturally occurring analogs.

source:
http://www.ams.usda.g o v/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

dilute it to working strength, then bring the pH down below 6.5, add your fertilizer, and make final pH adjustments as needed.

do we all agree?

 

[G.O. Joe]

source:
http://www.ams.usda.g o v/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

dilute it to working strength, then bring the pH down below 6.5, add your fertilizer, and make final pH adjustments as needed.

do we all agree?

It sounds sound. But what's the best ppm? I don't think we know. Some analytical chemistry shows the slow polymerization over time, and maybe higher initial ppm of monosilicic is possible. Maybe minutes count. I would use the acidifed silicate immediately.

There may be reasons why a Fasilitor (or K silicate acidified with acidified PEG 400 or propylene glycol) might in actual general practice work better than silicate, or a silicate might work better than trying to smash and grind silica gel beads (they do increase ppm), but we don't really know, do we. There can be any number of unknown factors affecting Si in someone's growing practices.

Burning of high-silica crops, such as rice and sugarcane, have been problematic for worker health in the past (Boeniger et al. 1988). There is also significant indirect evidence linking ingested plant silica and human cancer (Sangster et al. 1983, Bhatt et al. 1984, Hodson et al. 1994),

As if I needed more reasons to only smoke dry sift and extracts.