Agent Orange Male showing pistils... still good to breed with?

[new3]

I was planning on breeding with my agent orange male and it showed pistils on the central cola today, all the other branches are void of pistillate flowers. Could someone please tell me what the outcome would be if I pollenated something else with it?

would the babies be female hermies too or would this trait only affect the males to be hermies. if they only affect the males being hermies in the future generations then I suspect it is safe to breed with. wouldn't be such a big deal if agent orange wasn't discontinued...

 

[floralheart]

No sure, I did a bunch of work with AO too. What crosses are you going to make?

 

[floralheart]

Ohhhhhh Nice. It really is discontinued. Kinda cool.

I did an AO Jillybean that I'm working out right now. I'm looking for the most insane orange flavor that has ever been.

What's funny is, a buddy happened to end up with 25 of these beans, and another buddy another 25, many months ago. They're a team, so I figured 50 was straight as a gift.

They grow TH schwag from the early 00's and didn't pop a single bean in 5 months. Some people just don't know quality

Not bumming, because I came up with nearly 800 seeds from a 400 watt lamp and 8 different varieties and some frozen pollen. Looking forward to the AO x The Flav.

 

[new3]

I've always thought about doing the AO Jillybean cross myself, glad to know someone else is on the same page, im working with autos so I was going to try and make it autoflower. don't think I will breed with it anymore... oh well

how far along are you? getting any insane orange smells in veg?

 

[floralheart]

It's a tough call.

All the jillybeans I've grown have a straight creamicle scent to them. So those are going to automatically lean towards orange in veg, especially with the cross.

The Sour Diesel AO's lean Sour D, more than their mother ever could, since she was 50/50 with AK47. They have a super strong ECSD smell with heavy orange undertones, the more they mature. Like they are maturing into their orange scent. It's weird, you can smell the two mixing together, and it's kind of overpowering.

The orange is strong with the AO Topdawgs.

 

[Raho]

Intersex flowers can be triggered on most cannabis plants (male or female) by stress.
Because this is a survival mechanism for the plant, it is really just a matter of degrees.

Some plants can be tortured by Dick Cheney and never flip.
Others can be pampered like a Kardashian and still give it up at the first sign of stress . . . a trigger so small you may not have even noticed it.
Most growers see resistance to herming as a positive thing, a sign of hardiness and stability.
Spurious male flowers in a medical or commercial grow can cause countless dollars in damage. It is not a desirable trait.

There has been discussion on several boards about males that throw pistils.
Some people have suggested that it is a positive sign in a male.
Although I have not bred with one and tested the offspring, I personally do not buy in to the suggestion that intersex males are something desirable.


Assuming you are growing indoors, is there any chance your male spent a bit of time too close to the light?

Unless you know what caused it to happen, I would assume that the male is overly sensitive and not worth the trouble.

 

[sourpuss]

Dj short had written on this subject. You may b able to find it somewhere in cyberspace. I never read it, I think he says that males who show pistils r good for breeding and I yhink will produce more female seeds...

 

[siftedunity]

Dj short might use them and no doubt that you will get offspring but his are not exactly the most stable strains available. I know someone who used a herm male, the offspring did show herm traits even the females did. But not all just some

 

[crazyfool*]

IMHO , don´t breed with hermies.... the hermie trace probably will be passed on, if it doesn´t show in the f1.... the f2..f3...f4 ...f20, may show.....

actually, it really depends on what you are breeding for.... but if you want, solid reliable, and healthy f1´s....I´d search for another male....especially if you intend doing further breeding with the line....

but if you´re searching for the agent orange, or a hybrid that is close enough to it, use the male hermie, cross it to some other plant that has similar caracteristics, and Bx untill you find something worth keeping as a mother plant....

thats just my 2 cents....

 

[crazyfool*]

Dj short might use them and no doubt that you will get offspring but his are not exactly the most stable strains available. I know someone who used a herm male, the offspring did show herm traits even the females did. But not all just some

I was going to say something about this, but I kept quite due to the prestiege DJ has, and no doubt he does a grate job, but if you read up on him, his strains are famous for presenting lots of mutants and lots of negative feedbaks of growers having hermie issues.... I think DJ does a fabulous job for those who seek killer mother plants, and are able to pop arround 50 + seeds to find a good keeper, but for growers who buy a 10 pack and have no intention of keeping mother plants and vegetative grows, it may be a bad alternative, due to high price of the seeds, and also because of this unstabe genetic issue.

 

[new3]

Intersex flowers can be triggered on most cannabis plants (male or female) by stress.
Because this is a survival mechanism for the plant, it is really just a matter of degrees.

Some plants can be tortured by Dick Cheney and never flip.
Others can be pampered like a Kardashian and still give it up at the first sign of stress . . . a trigger so small you may not have even noticed it.
Most growers see resistance to herming as a positive thing, a sign of hardiness and stability.
Spurious male flowers in a medical or commercial grow can cause countless dollars in damage. It is not a desirable trait.

There has been discussion on several boards about males that throw pistils.
Some people have suggested that it is a positive sign in a male.
Although I have not bred with one and tested the offspring, I personally do not buy in to the suggestion that intersex males are something desirable.


Assuming you are growing indoors, is there any chance your male spent a bit of time too close to the light?

Unless you know what caused it to happen, I would assume that the male is overly sensitive and not worth the trouble.

it is in a box with a reversed female plant colloidal silver method. also it is not completely light proof I am sure, so it could be a number of things I will keep it until I am sure that it is a genetic hermaphrodite. the pistils only appeared on the central cola and the central cola was chopped. if the other colas do not show this trait I feel it is safe to carry on?

edit: it is killed
yay! for improving the gene pool boo for possible herm rates!

 

[Morphote]

I asked this very same question to several of the most respected breeders in the business and they all told me to use the male. The problem, as I understand it, is that you don't understand/know what you are selecting against when you cull the male. You cannot judge any male by his appearance/expression, only by his progeny.

M.

 

[siftedunity]

I asked this very same question to several of the most respected breeders in the business and they all told me to use the male. The problem, as I understand it, is that you don't understand/know what you are selecting against when you cull the male. You cannot judge any male by his appearance/expression, only by his progeny.

M.

sounds like quite an interesting way of looking at it..

 

[Morphote]

sounds like quite an interesting way of looking at it..

I thought so too. I used an Ortega male with pistils on Ortega females with intersex expression as well. Of the 4 F2 plants I grew 2 were male and 2 were female, and none of the 4 showed the intersex trait, not even with deliberate attempts to make them do so. Oddly enough when I reported my findings I was told that everyone knows if you cross 2 intersex plants that it masks the trait in the progeny (which is not what I have been told/read over the years). People say again and again that "like begets like", but that stands in stark contrast to what I found in my Ortega F2s. I have a Grail Widow male now that does the same thing and I can't wait to use him just to see if the trait is expressed in the GW progeny.

M.

 

[Raho]

I asked this very same question to several of the most respected breeders in the business and they all told me to use the male. The problem, as I understand it, is that you don't understand/know what you are selecting against when you cull the male. You cannot judge any male by his appearance/expression, only by his progeny.

M.

What's happening Morphote

Tom Hill, Shanti and DJ have all said that intersex males can be used. So did I.
My point about hermaphrodism as a survival function of the plant was meant to guide the OP to evaluate his environment as a possible factor in the expression to help him decide if that level of sensitivity would be acceptable to him.
I know you got a lot of the same advice with your Ortega grow when you were ready to throw it out as a hermi strain.

I understand what you mean when you say that you cannot select superior males by appearance, only by testing the offspring.
The same point could be made about females.
Although I understand your position, I disagree as I find it an oversimplification of the challenge of successful selection.

Growing out the offspring is the only way to PROVE your selection was right, but I would suggest that there are experienced people with exceptional observation skills that can more often than not separate the fire from the hay.

I'm not saying it is easy or even consistent. Just that it is possible. It helps a LOT if you have grown the strain before and/or have a solid understanding of the parental genetics (rare these days.) Makes things much easier.

I think we can also agree that not everyone has the same level of selection talent.
I would be reluctant to invest space in my room for an untested plant who's father was chosen by someone who professed no skill for male selection.

I've been making seeds for 32 years and I find my selection skills are constantly improving. M and F.

One of my selection criteria is hardiness.
I understand that I may be missing out on desirable genetics if I reject a plant that herms (not just a couple of balls that can be picked off and don't grow back.)
That level of sensitivity is unacceptable in my space.
I would never be able to share seeds with that history without growing them out and thoroughly testing them myself. Not even with a disclaimer.

If someone gave you seeds with a great pedigree but the grower told you that one or both the plants were intersex, would they be at the top of the list for you to grow?
I have hundreds of strains I am working my way through. Untested hermi beans would be at the bottom of the pile for me.

People commonly say things like "the plant tells me what it needs."
We understand that this means they observe and understand the clues the plant gives about it's condition and have the experience to know how to react.

My dog stands at the front door whining to get out.
I know from experience she is telling me she has to go to the bathroom and I let her out.
Someone with no experience with dogs/my dog/my environment might not recognize the clue and 30 minutes later step in a yellow puddle.

If you don't understand the clues then yes, by all means, save them all, keep them separate, pollinate branches discretely with each male pheno, harvest the seeds, grow the offspring, cure them for six months, smoke test and pick the winner, kill all the losers.
I don't know about you, but I see value in compressing that timeline, and at least trying to pick a winner and see if you are right.
There are observation skills and experience to be developed through that exercise.

it is in a box with a reversed female plant colloidal silver method. also it is not completely light proof I am sure, so it could be a number of things I will keep it until I am sure that it is a genetic hermaphrodite. the pistils only appeared on the central cola and the central cola was chopped. if the other colas do not show this trait I feel it is safe to carry on?

edit: it is killed
yay! for improving the gene pool boo for possible herm rates!

'Sup New3!
So was this male a reversed version of your known good AO female? Please give more details.

 

[new3]

no it was just a male all along that decided to throw pistils. I killed it, and am even more excited for the cross to take its place

edit: I am just like you raho, only room for the best. I kill anything that I know to be inferior or passes on an inferior genetic characteristic. that being said, there are also "mutants" with beneficial mutations. not many to name of off of the top of my head but they are def out there and I feel sad for the breeders who cull a particular plant without knowing "why" the plant evolved to have a specific mutation in the first place and how it could be better evolved if paired with others who portray a particular genetic anomaly.

 

[Morphote]

I agree I am on my own path, yes. And I do listen to breeders who know the plants I am growing, and they say to use these males. There was once a time when I would believe every single plant produced by intersex parents would necessarily be intersex, or at least the majority, but that is not true. People would tend to believe 2 superior plants can produce offspring that are pretty much all superior, but this is not true either. What is true is that the right combination of 2 P1s, regardless of phenotypical expression, will produce superior progeny, not because of their phenotype, but because of their genotype and chemotype. This is breeding IMO. I'm not trying to start a fight here. It's just how I see things now after speaking with the breeders you mentioned. You can go ahead and throw Chimera's name in there too if you wish. Many toss these males out just because it's what they're told to do. I consulted the breeders and they say otherwise.

M.

 

[Raho]

I agree I am on my own path, yes. And I do listen to breeders who know the plants I am growing, and they say to use these males. There was once a time when I would believe every single plant produced by intersex parents would necessarily be intersex, or at least the majority, but that is not true. People would tend to believe 2 superior plants can produce offspring that are pretty much all superior, but this is not true either. What is true is that the right combination of 2 P1s, regardless of phenotypical expression, will produce superior progeny, not because of their phenotype, but because of their genotype and chemotype. This is breeding IMO. I'm not trying to start a fight here. It's just how I see things now after speaking with the breeders you mentioned. You can go ahead and throw Chimera's name in there too if you wish. Many toss these males out just because it's what they're told to do. I consulted the breeders and they say otherwise.

M.

Right on Morphote.
I don't want to stir things up either. Just want to add one more thing.
First, some simplified definitions of the terms you used.
The pheno is the visible expression, the geno is the entire pool of genes in the plant (visible and not) and the chemo is the chemical composition of the resin.

F1 phenos will tend to show only dominant traits.
That does not mean there isn't much more variety in the plant that is masked. It may or may not be a stabilized line.

The variation people see in F2 lines includes the expression of recessive traits that were present but masked in the F1 offspring.

When breeding with unstabilized hybrids/polyhybrids, you are much more likely to see a broad range of phenos in the F2 generation as the recessive traits from both parent plants get to come out and play.
Clone only strains inbred through selfing have created a pool of genetics that tend to breed amazingly true to type.
If you are skeptical of that, all you have to do is try and count the number of strains called "OG."
If they didn't breed true, there would be only one.

In these cases, you will find that like creates like much more often. Kind of amazing really.

Peace

 

[Raho]

edit: I am just like you raho, only room for the best. I kill anything that I know to be inferior or passes on an inferior genetic characteristic. that being said, there are also "mutants" with beneficial mutations. not many to name of off of the top of my head but they are def out there and I feel sad for the breeders who cull a particular plant without knowing "why" the plant evolved to have a specific mutation in the first place and how it could be better evolved if paired with others who portray a particular genetic anomaly.

I hear ya New.
At the risk of stirring up the blue mafia . . .
When I think mutant, I think DJ. Probably most of ICmag does too.



As much as I want to say that "only the smoke matters" to me, I think stubborn mutations are a major negative.
They tend to have a serious impact on yield and structure. They are fragile and need pampering to survive. The fact that people associate them with low percentage displays of "magic" in the line doesn't do it for me. I have not found anything so great in those genes that it makes it worth it to me to breed with.

Serious mutations are a death sentence in my garden.
Just too many good alternatives without the negative baggage.

 

[Morphote]

Sorry Raho none of your arguments hold weight with me. I defer to more seasoned veterans than yourself when it comes to creating my own crosses. That is not to say that I don't respect your opinion. I certainly do. But that is to say that I have an open mind on these things and it took me years to get where I am now, just as I'm sure it did for you as well. DJ Short, Shanti, Chimera, TomHill, and Nevil all said the same thing on this subject. I think SamS even touched on this subject once or twice, and I would be surprised if he took your side on this. My favorite part of all of this is how people were once told to cull all males, and now people are told to keep only select males that tick certain boxes. I can't wait for the day when people realize that they need to use as many males as possible to preserve the gene pool and keep their options open in terms of genetic recombinations down the line. At least we think males are more important than ever. I'd like to thank all the fem seed companies out there for putting the spotlight firmly on proper male selection.

M.