Chasing my tail in coco

[weeddaddy50]

OK....I know what your talking about....your ph creeps after 24 hours....are you top feeding on drippers?...what kind of meter are you using?...pen? probe?...when was the last time you calibrated it?......all of this is important.....I use a hanna with a probe in my res...it stays there...but I calibrate it every 3 days....without a meter you know to be accurate...your lost.....additionally there is a realtionship between ph and ppm....so a ph of 6 willl have a different ppm...than your 5.2-5.4 range.....and there is a sweet spot you need to be around...not necessary to hit it every time...but be around it.

Also...are your organic or synethic nutrients...it makes a huge difference in coco...as far a your relationship ppm vs ph....

how ofter are you watering/feeding? what is the size of your pot?.....it all matters.

to calibrate....get you a bottle of cleaning solution & a bottle of ph 7.01....set them on your counter near your res...since I use the probe...I pull it out of the res...shake off excess...put the probe right in the cleaning solution...get out my cell phone start the timer for 2 minutes...then drop into the solution...pull it out at 2 minutes...put it in the ph 7.01...and wait 2-3 minutes....then recalibrate---it if needed....then drop back into your res......I suspect your meter is off....and your ph is really 4.6-5.0...which is way low.

another thing almost all ph rises in the res after 24 hours....just the way it is....I water at 5.6-6.0...and when I come in and check it the next day for watering....its always 6.4-6.8.

lastly....the water from your water company changes all the time...mine is real bad right now...lots of chemicals...and that will also effect outcomes..espically when your ph is low......when vegging...ph at over is 6 is fine.

for cal mag additives....I use a combination of glaicer rock dust and molasses...not together...teaspoon in the coco of glacier rock dust...and at week 4 water in molasses every other watering......my plants are way happy....everying I use is organic OMRI certified....

I know I rambled quite a bit....but without that meter I would be lost....now its the first thing I turn on when I go into my room....also I have a mixer that mixes the res...I let that thing run for an hour before watering....you could check your ph at the start of the morning...but when mixed...that is going to change by a bunch...before you ad anything.

good luck....sorry for the ramble.

 

[searchingforit]

I am using an Oakton meter and yes I calibrate regularly. I am using the maxi dry nutes. KISS method is way too hot at 7g/gallon even feeding every few days. At least on the size I run with my 200ppm tap. I have tried with and without calmag. Always trying to not go above 700 ppm (1.4 ec) after Ksil, dry nutes then calmag. I mix in water only days occasionally. Lots of run off. 1.4ec every few days should be enough for fluorescents and veg.

 

[searchingforit]

I am not following you on ppm changing due to pH. Are you saying ppm changes with pH? To my knowledge that is false. If you add pH down and your TDS rises that is because you've added additional ions be it sulfate, phosphate and so on. I will say I am not a fool and have had perfect crops but I am not an expert and this issue has been consistent. I am fairly certain it isn't because of low pH or being salted out.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I appreciate all advice but I need an explanation as to why watering with pH 5.2-5.5 in coco would be too low.

Because using the incorrect pH means you're making nutrients UNavailable to plants.

Consistency is key and more important than pH.

Disagreed. Ranging pH parameters seem to allow for better uptake and overall utilization of nutrients. Most coir mixes and cannabis varieties, IME, perform best at a pH of 6.0, damn near bang on. But I still allow it to range--5.8-6.2--sometimes a tenth of a point or two above or below those ranges.

And to say that pH is not important is simply not the suss of the matter, simply isn't. I've killed far too many fish by playing around with pH to know this.

My nute mix creeps upwards towards 6 pH after 24 hours. I also use KSil in my mix. If anything I have been leaning towards my pH being too high in the root zone.

Then perform a slurry test and figure out what's really happening there.

I see multiple issues. You have a N+ along with a P-, possible Mg issues (oh, really..? possibly). The first worst leaf depicted appears to be a K problem, but I can't tell where the affected leaf is located, this is key to diagnosing the real problem. I would drop the KSil, assuming it's giving you K (never worked with this product). If you're after silica I suggest Dyna-Gro or Protekt, a simple Si-only product. Or, mix your coir with rice hulls, they offer potassium silicate and are an excellent replacement for perlite.

I see nothing that indicates a Ca-, nor anything that definitively indicates a Mg-.

Oh... you're using tap water @200ppm? What's the hardness of that water, and is it via general hardness (total mineral, all minerals) or carbonate hardness? If it's carbonate (less likely considering where you say your pH ends up after 24hrs) then you're fighting against your water. Also, if it's Ca in the form of CaCO3, and it hasn't been broken apart with sufficient acid, you're not giving your plants sufficient available Ca. It's the CO3 part of the molecule that's a problem.

 

[searchingforit]

Total Hardness 72 ppm
Bicarbonates 54
Carbonates Less than 1 ppm
Calcium 24 ppm
Total Alkalinity 45
Sodium 26 ppm

I understand total alkalinity and total hardness both being CaCO3, but shouldn't alkalinity be higher than total hardness?

 

[StChristopher]

Try ph 5.6-6.3, and feed everyday@700pp.. I think you would have better mag uptake if your ph was a little higher. many people have success feeding low ppms more often. Don't feed plain water in coco unless you nerd to flush, it can screw up the cat ion exchange

Bang on to this^^^ Letting coco dry will do all kinds of crazy thing. I see nute burn on those plants and def. I had run off around 800ppm ph 5.8, couldnt get back to feed/water for a day so they went about 50 hours unwatered. My run off was 1750ppm ph was 4.2 leafs looked your your second pic. So you could be locked out due to high ppm or low ph. I would flush, refeed with a low ppm, and feed every watering every day. 5.8-6.3 ph should be your target range

 

[BldSwtTrs]

Anybody saying its PH has little experience growing in coco... When your nutrient solution is mixed and watered at a PH of 5.3-5.5 it will slowly rise while in the medium to about 5.8-6.2.

Whatever your nutrient solution is PHed to will rise once it is soaking in the medium. Bet on it...

I have grown thousands of plants in coco with a PH at 5.3 and have always had results that most would consider quite good. It is NOT a PH problem so look elsewhere.

 

[FOE20]

Searching I'd like a shot at your issues...Ive been into this for a while and if you follow my posts you may see some relative convos..
1st is that list your actual water co content report or home test?...
I may be asking question you covered but Im trying to understand exactly how your using it..
You use your tap as is or RO filtered?...
Does your water smell?.....like a pool?....do you treat it in any way at all?....let sit out...use bubbler to oxy water that sits in rese?...

My guess off hand..is pH flux up cause the content of your water supply is very high in Ca to start...causing lockout of other nutes and serious pH fluxes..The medium is not working with the water...the medium is already over buffered from the excess Ca and causing the following issues you see...feel it or not really?...
At times initially when you add your pH'd water @ 5.8 your medium is already over 6.5...you feed light so it doesn't keep pH in check and the pH of teh medium prior to watering still retained its build up..Cause even tho you have run off...your pulling out nutes..and adding even more Ca whether you know it or not...
You get a low Alkalinity meaning Low buffer and Fluxable and you get Over -Hard water from excess Ca/fluoride/chloride/etc...
If this sounds like the road your on I'll add more and we can sort a few solution...if not I wish ya the best man...
FOE20

 

[weeddaddy50]

Well Ok...good luck with your issue.

 

[TribalSeeds]

a couple of ph points isnt gonna make much of a difference. theres such a difference between pens and accuracy anyway.
Water more often. If youre ph is low every feeding dont water too often so you can give the medium a chance to drift. But atleast once a day. If you only need to water every other day your pots are too big or your plants are stalling.

 

[noyd666]

I moved and since have been stumped with a problem. I am in coco. pH ranges from 5.2 - 5.8. 600-700 ppm every few days. This is happening to me in veg and in flower leaves are taco-ing, plant isn't fattening up. Poor root growth. I feel like I am chasing my tail as I can't nail it down. Is this nutrient burn? Potassium toxicity/deficiency? Calcium deficiency? Is this pH induced, transpiration (lack of/too much)? I have even thought it to be something in my tap like chloramine. This problem is fairly recent. Growth is slow, stems are woody/purple. Tips point down, edges are burnt, leaning up. Figured it could be high pH from alkalinity. Alkalinity is 45 ppm in tap, Some from flower then veg
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[SeaMaiden]

Total Hardness 72 ppm
Bicarbonates 54
Carbonates Less than 1 ppm
Calcium 24 ppm
Total Alkalinity 45
Sodium 26 ppm

I understand total alkalinity and total hardness both being CaCO3, but shouldn't alkalinity be higher than total hardness?

Total hardness is a measure of all minerals in the water column, not just those that contribute to alkalinity, which in this context is defined specifically as resistance to pH shift. For example, my total hardness is higher than my alkalinity (well water) because there is also Fe and possibly some sulfates in the column. These minerals won't be measured using the carbonate hardness tests.

So, to answer your question, you've got it reversed. Total hardness should be higher than alkalinity IF there are also other minerals present in the water column.

Your water is remarkably low in terms of alkalinity, or carbonate hardness. If I'm reading it right and calculating the conversion correctly, it's equivalent to 1 degree of German (carbonate) hardness. In my world, that's pretty soft, and honestly, I don't think should be causing you much trouble.

Went to look at the pix again and for some reason they're showing up as very, very tiny. Like avatar-sized.

 

[weeddaddy50]

Now that's just pillow talk to me

Now that's just pillow talk to me

right on SeaMaiden......

Total hardness is a measure of all minerals in the water column, not just those that contribute to alkalinity, which in this context is defined specifically as resistance to pH shift. For example, my total hardness is higher than my alkalinity (well water) because there is also Fe and possibly some sulfates in the column. These minerals won't be measured using the carbonate hardness tests.

So, to answer your question, you've got it reversed. Total hardness should be higher than alkalinity IF there are also other minerals present in the water column.

Your water is remarkably low in terms of alkalinity, or carbonate hardness. If I'm reading it right and calculating the conversion correctly, it's equivalent to 1 degree of German (carbonate) hardness. In my world, that's pretty soft, and honestly, I don't think should be causing you much trouble.

Went to look at the pix again and for some reason they're showing up as very, very tiny. Like avatar-sized.

 

[IndicaCowboy]

Did this guy ever find to solution to his plant's issues?

 

[LakesideWiseman]

Searching I'd like a shot at your issues...Ive been into this for a while and if you follow my posts you may see some relative convos..
1st is that list your actual water co content report or home test?...
I may be asking question you covered but Im trying to understand exactly how your using it..
You use your tap as is or RO filtered?...
Does your water smell?.....like a pool?....do you treat it in any way at all?....let sit out...use bubbler to oxy water that sits in rese?...

My guess off hand..is pH flux up cause the content of your water supply is very high in Ca to start...causing lockout of other nutes and serious pH fluxes..The medium is not working with the water...the medium is already over buffered from the excess Ca and causing the following issues you see...feel it or not really?...
At times initially when you add your pH'd water @ 5.8 your medium is already over 6.5...you feed light so it doesn't keep pH in check and the pH of teh medium prior to watering still retained its build up..Cause even tho you have run off...your pulling out nutes..and adding even more Ca whether you know it or not...
You get a low Alkalinity meaning Low buffer and Fluxable and you get Over -Hard water from excess Ca/fluoride/chloride/etc...
If this sounds like the road your on I'll add more and we can sort a few solution...if not I wish ya the best man...
FOE20

Sorry to bring up such an old post, but I feel that this single post, which got absolutely no acknowledgement in this thread, deserves recognition. I had been dealing with this problem, and searching for the exact cause and, as the title of the thread says, I was simply chasing my tail.

If I had understood, that the excess hardness of my water, Ca/Mg and Carbonates cause precipitation in the media, caused the slow riding of the pH of the media until they are flushed out. (And in order to flush a media with a CEC you cannot simply flush with pure R.O., you much flush with some nutrient solution in order to replace the excess Ca/Mg Cations, and Carbonate Anions) Once you do this you rebalance the ratio of elements in the root zone and things turn around. As soon as I started using a mixture of R.O. and tap, rather than simply tap, the problem disappeared.

Coco has a hell of a high CEC for an "Inert Media" and definitely does not play well with hard water.

Simply feeding R.O. water with the proper ratio's of N-P-K-Ca-Mg (my ratios for Coco would be something like 3-1-4-2.5-1.25 based on experience/research [Maybe less K? More experimentation is needed]), with a sufficient runoff, and NEVER letting the Coco dry out is an easy path to success.

Hope someone finds this info useful, as I had wish I had found this simple explanation to my problem sooner.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Hate to call myself a coco expert, but....well, allow me to see some pics of whats going on and that will help immensly. Is the pH drifting up or down? In the pot or in your res? Drippers? Halos? Constant feed or hand feed? What is your runoff ec and pH, and what is going in?

 

[dansbuds]

old thread is right last time the OP posted was last november .

 

[searchingforit]

Never found a solution. My roots were crap and it appeared as if they weren't uptaking water. There was just no rootball what so ever. These were allied to dry out to but something seemed to be killing the new roots. No bugs were found after dealing with aphids that were successfully bombed out. I would let pots dry, roots would explode in growth, then with the next watering they withered away.

Also, CA in my tap is less than 25 ppm. That isn't excesivly high. This was all a mystery. I gave up on coco and moved to other methods. Many possibilities for my issues including bugs, rot, something terrible in the tap and so on. The water seems usable but I swear even watering house plants that should be set it forget it kills them off.

 

[noyd666]

I THINK I WOULD BE GETTING MY WATER CHECKED, SOUNDS EVIL.