The Great ISO OIL Enigma

[Rosy Cheeks]

So, figure this one out for me please.

I make ISO oil out of my garden leftovers since years back. I use a 70% (70% alcohol/30% water) isopropylene alcohol, because I can buy that at my local pharmacy and it's cheap, whereas the 90% or 99% is hard to come by, costs more and I have to order it on the internet to get reasonable amounts.

I've always heard ISO oil enthusiasts say that 99% is the best to use, and it made sense to me since higher concentration of ISO should vouch for higher extraction capacity, right?

Well, a couple of months back I ordered some 99%. I made the oil the same way I always make it (dry clippings and leaves are shaken in ISO for about 30-45 secs, then filtered and extracted) in the same amounts I make it.

I was dismayed by the result because it clearly wasn't as strong/concentrated as usual, and it came on slower.

I wrote that off in my head as my mistake. I probably used more Sativa clippings than Indica, probably used less than I thought I did, I probably didn't shake the clippings long enough, etc.

Then I did another batch of 99% ISO, same routine as always, and got the same disappointing result. Now I knew it had to be the ISO.

So I switched back to the pharmaceutical 70% and made a new batch, and bam my super killer ISO that will make Mike Tyson reel from one hit was back!

I'm left with the conclusion that the diluted alcohol makes a more refined product that the pure grade, and I can't figure out how and why this is so.

Could it be related to the extraction or the shaking, or the quality of the ISO alcohol? Should I adjust my technique somehow when using the 99%?

hit me, hobby chemists...

 

[Gray Wolf]

So, figure this one out for me please.

I make ISO oil out of my garden leftovers since years back. I use a 70% (70% alcohol/30% water) isopropylene alcohol, because I can buy that at my local pharmacy and it's cheap, whereas the 90% or 99% is hard to come by, costs more and I have to order it on the internet to get reasonable amounts.

I've always heard ISO oil enthusiasts say that 99% is the best to use, and it made sense to me since higher concentration of ISO should vouch for higher extraction capacity, right?

Well, a couple of months back I ordered some 99%. I made the oil the same way I always make it (dry clippings and leaves are shaken in ISO for about 30-45 secs, then filtered and extracted) in the same amounts I make it.

I was dismayed by the result because it clearly wasn't as strong/concentrated as usual, and it came on slower.

I wrote that off in my head as my mistake. I probably used more Sativa clippings than Indica, probably used less than I thought I did, I probably didn't shake the clippings long enough, etc.

Then I did another batch of 99% ISO, same routine as always, and got the same disappointing result. Now I knew it had to be the ISO.

So I switched back to the pharmaceutical 70% and made a new batch, and bam my super killer ISO that will make Mike Tyson reel from one hit was back!

I'm left with the conclusion that the diluted alcohol makes a more refined product that the pure grade, and I can't figure out how and why this is so.

Could it be related to the extraction or the shaking, or the quality of the ISO alcohol? Should I adjust my technique somehow when using the 99%?

hit me, hobby chemists...

You got me bro! Your conclusion sort of flies in the face of accepted protocol doesn't it?

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

You got me bro! Your conclusion sort of flies in the face of accepted protocol doesn't it?

Sorry to have stumped you bro!

Yes, this is not the result I expected based on basic physics. Nevertheless it's what I got, and to quote the late thinker (and artist) Michael Jackson; "The greatest education in the world is watching how things work."

I'm wondering if it could have something to do with the decarboxylation process, meaning that perhaps the transformation from THCA to THC is more efficient with H2O in it rather than pure ISO, since H2O absorbs carbon. Does that sound reasonable? It's not a claim, I'm thinking out loud here.

What I would like to know is if anyone has made a similar observation. Has anyone used both 70% ISO and 99%, and noticed a difference in potency in the end product?

In this particular case, I'd say the 70% ISO produced close to double potency over the 99%... weird!

 

[m314]

Are you smoking or vaping the oil? Decarboxylation shouldn't matter unless you're using it for edibles or tinctures.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

A good observation m314,

I eat the oil, most often I make chocolate with it. Otherwise, as you noted, it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Never really enjoyed iso extracts always gave me head aches. I suggest only using 99% iso as the lower ones such as the 70% and 91% contain lanolin(wool wax) which is a skin conditioner and the large amounts of water in the lower percent's pick up lots of water solubles such as plant sugars and chlorophyll.

190 proof neutral grain or grape spirits is the way to go if one is using a polar solvent as the initial extraction.

 

[m314]

A good observation m314,

I eat the oil, most often I make chocolate with it. Otherwise, as you noted, it wouldn't make a difference.

You don't have to do a quick 30 second wash if you're eating it. I like doing a quick wash to get smokable / vapable oil and doing a second isopropanol extraction overnight to get oil for tinctures and recipes. The oil from the second extraction turns out dark green. It's too harsh to smoke, but it's perfect for oral use.

If you want to try an experiment, you could try heating your 99% iso oil to see if it makes it stronger. There's a chart around here somewhere that shows the right temperature and duration for decarboxylation.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

I almost always eat the oil, but on rare occasions I smoke it. I filter it because it's a multi purpose oil. So I stay around the 45 sec mark for washing.

But all that is beside the point. We all have our favorite extraction methods, if 190 proof makes midwestHIGH happy then that's great.

The point is, the diluted alcohol made a better oil than the 99%. I'm trying to figure out why...

 

[dank.frank]

I really can't answer this one...but I do know I'm going to try some with 70% to repeat your results. I typically use some 99% that I purchased, and it makes full on shatter, much like BHO - although not quite as strong / concentrated or flavorful as a butane extraction.

I've always enjoyed eating ISO extract without doing anything to it...3 days in the hot sun to really purge it good, a bit of heat to soften it and bring it to center...and I'll eat .5g and be good for 12 hours! hehehe

If Greywolf doesn't know...I surely won't have the answer!!! The resident professor says it flies in the face of research, and while I've never used 70%, I do tend to trust his expertise on extracts...

I hope you pursue your answer and let us know what you discover! Have you sent samples made from both in for lab work, to see if you can identify the differences in them? Perhaps this would be your first step in understanding what is taking place?



dank.Frank

 

[Oily Farmer]

Putting my thinking cap on... now taking it off...
Defo would need someone (not me) with a chemistry background to explain how/if the alcohol is responsible for the differences.
You did a comparison with similar results, so the first thing to do is stop using the 99%...
I used 70% and 99% ISO to make QWISO a few times, but as with many people I've spoken with, the headaches sucked, and more importantly, why was I using a poison? Regardless of cost, my health is more important than saving $$, so I switched to 96.5% Neutral Grain Ethyl Alcohol. No more headaches, and any residual materials gets mixed with whatever fruit juice I have in the house... cheers.
It's a matter of "to each their own", however I refuse to use poison when a safer alternative is available, regardless of the barriers/constraints/obstacles of obtaining non poisonous alcohol.
Cheap ain't the way, it just isn't, especially when dealing with poisons...
Always a pleasure...

 

[dank.frank]

FWIW - I've NEVER gotten headaches using ISO - learn how to purge...lol. Not meant to be offensive in said statement, but really. Patience is a virtue...especially when purging!


dank.Frank

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

I realize that there are people in this forum who have issues with ISO, and while this thread isn't about that and I would like to stick to the subject, here's my take on it.

Chemistry and toxicology traditionally have divided alcohols into toxic and non-toxic alcohols, defining isopropanol, methanol, and ethylene glycol as toxic, and ethanol as non-toxic. This is confusing to people and gives them the impression that isopropanol is toxic while ethanol isn't.
The truth is, the toxicity of an alcohol is in linear relationship to its molecular weight, and as the molecular size increases so does the impact. Methanol and ethylene glycol are in a league of their own. Isopropanol on the other hand closely resembles that of ethanol, and is but marginally more toxic than ethanol at comparable concentrations. Ethanol is of course also toxic - since it is an alcohol. Its toxicity is fixed in relation to what quantity will have what impact on the human body.
Isopropanol is quickly converted to acetone once taken into the body. Acetone is naturally present in virtually every organ and tissue in the human body as a result of metabolic processes.
All in all, it seems to me that if you are concerned about your health, which I think you should be, it would be more important to go from smoking or vaporizing your THC to ingesting it rather than changing from isopropanol to ethanol, which will IMO have no measurable effect on your health.

So, back to the thread topic; why did the 70% ISO outperform the 99% ISO? Could the quality of the alcohol have anything to do with it?

 

[midwestHIGHS]

FWIW - I've NEVER gotten headaches using ISO - learn how to purge...lol. Not meant to be offensive in said statement, but really. Patience is a virtue...especially when purging!


dank.Frank

If this was directed towards me, I'll have to assume you haven't read many of my posts or threads, most of which are about properly purging or processing solvent extracted oil via ethanol washes, winterization, thin film n deep vacuum purging at constant heat, etc etc. Also, everyone is not created equal, some people are just more sensitve to certain thing than others...

Its not so much the residual isopropanol, but the additives used in the 70% and 91% iso's that I don't really care for. Lanolin and other skin conditioners, denatorium a bittering agent is also added to some lower quality isopropanol and water preperations.

Either way intital polar extractions I enjoy of eating, but prefer to start with a non polar and clean it up with ethanol for vaporization.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Toxicology references give the toxicity of the propanols as 2x ethanol.

Without analysis there is no way to know what your products were. Maybe the 99% extract was stronger, and there was some reason why you didn't notice.

Lanolin and other skin conditioners, denatorium a bittering agent is also added to some lower quality isopropanol and water preperations.

Do not use anything with "rubbing alcohol" on the label.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

The point is, the diluted alcohol made a better oil than the 99%. I'm trying to figure out why...

I doubt it actually made a better oil, did you have both tested to see if it in fact was more potent? or is this just by what you felt. Maybe you ate more food the day you consumed the oil feeling less potent or perhaps you had low blood sugar the day you ate the 70% iso extracted oil and hit you real hard. Just a thought...

Did you extract the 70% and 99% side by side with the same material and same process?

 

[Kushed_]

What was the difference with yield? Why don't you add some water to the 70% and see if that makes it better. I agree with midwestHIGHS, ISO gives me a headache after a day of dabbing.

 

[blastfrompast]

Well if you are eating it, I could see how you would heat the 70% longer, and probably a bit higher to remove the water...

Decarb it in the pan so to speak...You cook off all the water..whereas you probably didn't heat the 99% as much....

I add a touch of water to my 99% wash while cooking....follow the RSO guide pretty much for the first wash.

2nd wash = black/green oil that gets cooked down dry, then baked in the shade in my woodshed...

This is too harsh to smoke..been collecting this for a while....going to hopefully add it to some coconut oil and water...heat....and hopefully wash it a bit.
Put 15g(PRE-MIXED WITH SOME OF THE VODKA and heated...to make it runny'ish) in 250ml of vodka 4 months ago.....

Haven't tried it yet...but one day mebbe...