Organic Soil Moisture Management

[anonymousgrow]

let's say one is doing no till container gardening with a relatively small hard walled container. Could the mass of roots near the sides and bottom be a breeding ground for nasty stuff once the cycle ends and those roots are left to die? while the next plant is starting out?

Do you guys find that you have better root systems by transplanting up to bigger pots often rather than just putting them straight into the big planter. I use 20 and 45 gallon smart pots indoors with drip emitter lines coiled in each one and a few inches of straw as mulch on top. I only started to run indoor plants in this way, its much closer to the way i do my outdoor, and i will never go back to hand watering little containers again. This winter i plan on building a big bed with around a yard of soil per light to see how far i can take this before i see diminishing returns.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Ahh...I agree Carlos, just sometimes one has to be objective and occasionally ask themselves, "why am I doing this...this way?"

Soooo many paths to the same destination! To suggest one is "correct"--kinda means that all other paths are "wrong".

I think smart pots/air pots were created--as they became solutions to a problem: air porosity. All living things need 3 things to survive water, food & air--don't matter if the topic is bacteria, humans, plants, dogs--we must have all 3 to thrive. Peat based grow mixes have very low air porosity but high water absorption ratios....while perlite/expanded clay mixes have high air porosity but low water absorption ratios.

So, rather than "amend the soil" with aggregates with specific ratios--depending on the container size and height...an "air container" that works with all "off the shelf" growing medium is "the answer for some"--and sold at stores.

Not saying others are wrong--just saying...sometimes you gotta know why you use--what you use. Are there alternatives to plastic containers? Yes. Are there alternatives to "air pots/smart pots"? Yes. Is anyone wrong? No.

Cheers!

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

thank god i got kicked outta college - otherwise i might listen to what everybody says and stick with the majority just to play it safe

 

[dank.frank]

What is funny to me is everyone is saying, I switched pots and did the same thing, and blah, blah, blah...

You can't change one aspect of the grow and not expect to have adjustments to make in other areas...

For one - airpots and smartpots ARE NOT the same thing. While they may achieve a similar goal, ie air pruning roots, they are VASTLY different products in how they achieve that result, and really can not be compared or lumped into the same discussion.

I personally love air pots. Do they dry out faster? Yes. Do they have a large amount of runoff out the sides? Is is possible. So, did I dismiss them as being irrelevant, NO. I adjusted my medium in a way that acknowledged the changes and behavior of the container. I found ways to keep moisture in the soil longer - I found ways to make sure I was getting the fullness of the benefit they could provide. And yes, that even included adding a bit more nutrients at times to see if in fact a larger more dense root mass could be benefited by a heavier feeding...

Same with smart pots ....I learned how to use the container and to take advantage of it's perks. I learned how to adjust my medium as a result of the change in container.

Any time you change one aspect of your garden, you should be expecting to change other aspects as well. Otherwise, you are not TRULY trying to improve or benefit, but merely trying to reinforce your own ways of doing something.

If you are content with all aspects of your garden, then why bother with the hassle of trying something new? Especially if you are not willing to make adjustments.

It has ALWAYS been understood, the MORE roots, the more uptake of nutrients, the higher the production possibilities. These containers (air/smart pots) address such an understanding of plant biology. Now, if you feed the same amount of food to a larger root mass, how or why would you expect to see any difference in yield? It just seems like common sense to me - if you change one input, you should be prepared to make changes to others. If you ran the same old script in a new pot, well, of course you saw zero benefit. Again, common sense.



dank.Frank

 

[Granger2]

Commercial tree growers are moving to Air Bags, and they don't make their business decisions to stick with the majority and play it safe. They do it because they can get their products to market faster which cuts their costs=more profit. -granger

 

[Carlos Danger]

Frank, my point to Eclipse was that most of us in organics fed the soil with amendments and humus when we made it. There's very little additional fertilizing to be done despite an expanded root system. I hear ya on adjusting things but can also understand people only changing one aspect at a time, like containers, as a control.

 

[dank.frank]

MY point being, if you are trying to get increases by merely changing the container, thinking that having a better root system will improve that - you must also then be assuming that you had already placed more "food" in the soil than was being utilized or consumed. If you want to see improvements, be willing to push the envelope and be willing to experiment outside of your known formulations. More root mass allows for greater uptake, so provide more for the plants to uptake - just by a default, simple logic concept.

And I agree, you have to at some point try one single change in order to isolate what is actually causing the benefits - but when you don't see the results you'd expect and others (all areas of horticulture, not just canna) are getting improvements, then you have to continue exploring the possibility further, as opposed to writing it off.

Good point, Carlos - I understand fully what you mean - I'm was merely encouraging folks to explore a bit beyond that single control, to see if in fact they too couldn't procure greater benefit from such containers.

PS - I'm an organic gardener as well. I amend with 22 inputs, plant and then just add water. NOTHING else.


dank.Frank

 

[EclipseFour20]

Ahhhh one secret key for me, is to increase the cation and anion exchange rates of my growing medium; the results are simple: less fertility/food is required--like 25-33% less. Yep....I get more--with less.

And a runner up secret--is sea minerals; I provide all 92 earth elements in my soil for root uptake--not the top 16 or 20 that most provide. My logic--roots can seek and uptake what they want--without any substitution...since all 92 elements are available.

Raw Milk?...No secret here; its loaded with bacteria, carbohydrates, and amino acids.

If my product lacks flavors and aromas (potency is assumed)--then, IMHO, it should be classified as "mediocre" and priced accordingly.

Cheers!

 

[EclipseFour20]

Sorry, missed your post CD.

Frank, my point to Eclipse was that most of us in organics fed the soil with amendments and humus when we made it. There's very little additional fertilizing to be done despite an expanded root system. I hear ya on adjusting things but can also understand people only changing one aspect at a time, like containers, as a control.

I too am mostly organics so lets compare apples to apples. Assuming that both of us will use the same water soluble inputs (blood meal, seaweed extract, enzymes, minerals, etc) then our liquid inputs are relatively the same.

So difference between the containers is "evaporation loss"--and the fluids required to replace the "evaporation loss" after 24 hours...not the types of fertility or nutrition we both use--or not use.

Example: Two containers with different evaporation loss (10% and 25%)...how much will be needed to provide the grow medium 1 liter of water soluble inputs?

For the 10% loss container, 1.11 liters will be required (1.11 x 90% = 1 liter)
For the 25% loss container, 1.33 liters will be required (1.33 x 75% = 1 liter).

Second difference between the two styles is the number of watering intervals required to keep the medium moist (the point I mentioned earlier). Just because one soil dries out sooner does not mean more fertility is required...rather more water is needed. Containers designed to "air prune roots" require more watering intervals--not more nutrition intervals. That we agree on.

Again, not saying anyone is wrong, just suggesting--assuming other things are equal, then it is logical to conclude air pruning containers are more expensive (cost and labor) than using traditional containers with a dialed in grow medium.

Now...the time and cost to dial in the grow medium with perfect air/water porosity numbers--that's a different discussion; but imho, well worth the investment of time and $.

Cheers!

 

[Dudesome]

You guys came so hard on people criticizing them air pots and smart pots.

Now hear this.

Ive been using nursery pots most of the time untill, like many before, I was sold on air pots.
To be honest I dig all the theory and "scientific" adds they put out there.

I bought them, let em run.

Was it a pleasant experience?
No. It was plus labor, minus time.

Was it simple to use?
FUCK NO. Got to really get used to being 5 times more scrupulous while watering. Its tiring and very stressful to see those ACTs stream through those damn wholes that are supposed to be helpful..just not with feeding I guess...

Difference in yield?
None to take notice of

Whats the ROI(return on investments) from buying airpots?
First grow turned out to bring negative roi.... I lost money on nutrients and the super expensive 30 liter pots x10
I guess it could turn out positive ROI if I stayed with them and learned to apply them properly, but do I want that?
Fuck no!!!

What has the experience taught me?
$implicity

We tend to overdo things too much when it comes to growing mj...
But we also tend to overbuy things we dont really need

in my opinion it is much wiser to keep things simple and not to overcomplicate things that you want to be doing regularly.

It is much easier to use nursery pots because I can dedicate myself to studying soil more, rather than adopting my soil mix to different containers. I want to improve my soil gradually taking small steps without a significant change at one time just cause I bought something everyone else thinks is hot.

the more gradual the change, the more SCIENTIFIC the approach to improving soil fertility and understanding nature.

this is the real science in practice, not watching a 1 minute add that explains "scientifically" why and how something works. That makes u expect money to be so powerful when it comes to growing. When as only studying the subject makes u excel in it. Not the size of your wallet. Dont expect that paper to grow you designer bud.

The funny thing is... some of the pro airpotters here remind me of myself 2 years ago arguing with strainhunter about the same topic. Only back then I was on the side of air pots myself, just before trying them out. I also referred to all those reviews and adds.
Experience teaches: no need to have fancy equipments until you perfect your understanding of soil. It comes to most of the things in this market today.

Dont buy adds. Buy 1 sample if you have to try it and run a side by side to see if the product suits ur needs.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

thank you for chiming in - for a minute there, i was surrounded by people sold by advertisements that were telling me that science proved those air-pots were superior to my own and others experience....

straight up malarkey

 

[SpicySativa]

Mr. Krinkle- You have now told us a total of 8 times in this thread alone that you think air root pruning is not helpful. We understand that's your opinion. If you don't have anything new or helpful to add, please stop posting in this thread.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Let's rephrase the issue: If you have a grow medium that has all the right nutrients (dialed in) but your growing containers are of different sizes (3gal, 5gal, 15gal, 30gal)...and if air porosity is an issue for you (soil drying out too fast or too slow), THEN there are alternative containers available that will correct the air porosity issue--without having to change the proportion of aggregates (recalculate the growing medium). These alternative containers are perfect for "gardeners".

If one is a "farmer"--where time, money, quality and quantity becomes a continuous balancing act of "necessity", then an investment in the front end (creating perfect "porosity" grow medum recipes for each container...same aggregates but different ratios) will save both time and money.

Is anyone wrong? No...but now everyone is more informed.

Cheers!

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Mr. Krinkle- You have now told us a total of 8 times in this thread alone that you think air root pruning is not helpful. We understand that's your opinion. If you don't have anything new or helpful to add, please stop posting in this thread.

see now why ya gotta be like that?


cmon man - don't be mad about it

 

[SpicySativa]

Not mad, just annoyed. Don't you have anything better to do than write the same shit over and over again? We heard ya the first time...

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

nope - im here for you, buddy

 

[SpicySativa]

Excellent... Have a good day!

 

[DabSnob]

Was it a pleasant experience?
No. It was plus labor, minus time.

Was it simple to use?
FUCK NO. Got to really get used to being 5 times more scrupulous while watering. Its tiring and very stressful to see those ACTs stream through those damn wholes that are supposed to be helpful..just not with feeding I guess...

Difference in yield?
None to take notice of

I agree with every point in this post except the increase in yields. I'm putting out an extra ounce on average, 2 on extra healthy ladies. BUT the increased labor was not worth it in the long run. I have 5 airpots currently sitting empty, looks like a documented side by side is in order.

 

[SpicySativa]

I agree with every point in this post except the increase in yields. I'm putting out an extra ounce on average, 2 on extra healthy ladies. BUT the increased labor was not worth it in the long run. I have 5 airpots currently sitting empty, looks like a documented side by side is in order.

This is the same conclusion I have come to. With my particular soil mix (which is already prepared) my plants in 7-gal Smart Pots were needing water every other day between late veg and late flower. If I didn't water every other day, I ended up with close to 2" of crusty dry soil on the top and sides. This is why I have already chosen to ditch the 7-gal Smart Pots in favor of 10-gal hard pots. This change, combined with my new drip watering system should GREATLY decrease the amount of time I need to spend in the garden. I work full time and have many other hobbies to take up my free time...

I still plan to use 2-gal Smart Pots for early veg, because they don't need such frequent watering while they are small. And, I hypothesize that I can still get the fibrous root ball by starting them in Smarties.

This is just one experiment I'm trying out. I think it is going to accomplish what I want it to (healthier, happier plants with less effort). Yield is pretty low on my list of priorities... My little 4x4' garden has kept my girlfriend and I supplied for well over 3 years now without ever coming close to running dry. Quality and ease of maintenance are my top priorities these days.

 

[VerdantGreen]

its tough with all these product's, whether they are going to make a positive difference to your grow, and trying to be objective about whether it did or didnt. there may be other reasons why your grow did better or worse on the round you introduced your new thing. even managing to change just one thing each time is impossible , so many factors. its great when you do find something that you can be reasonably sure about.

smart pots sound quite good but would complicate my modular scrogs in that i need something rigid (like a pot) to attach the screens to.
airpots, sounds good on paper, great for fitting the screens to, but i have to agree that they are add a lot of inconveniences i used them for 2 or 3 runs ymmv.
if a bunch of fungus gnats got together and built themselves a high rise apartment block - it would look pretty much like an airpot

do the smartpots fold up small for postage?

VG