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First Vert: 2400w, Blue Rhino. Run what you brung!

OG_TGR

Member
How do you calculate "2ACm"? I was calculating total room volume (length x width x height) and doubling it to get required "2ACm". Is this right?
Yes that's correct, Air Change/Minute, as opposed to /Hour as you usually see in AQ references and such.
The other thing I was really looking at when ballast shopping was avoiding the "Made in China", which can be very tricky to actually do. I have seen products that had a cover or sticker or something that was "Made in the USA" and was made only to cover up the "Made in China" labels.....that's legal.
I'm not trying to blindly say "I'm not buying anything from China!", that seems so unrealistic when people say that. I boycotted Harbor Freight but then I realized, it is the exact same wire brush I am getting at Advance, only half the price. Why pay a middle man when there is only one source anyway? There are just some things that you cannot buy unless it's made in China. Also, there are probably some products out there that the best place to get this is from China. LED's for example, there just aren't many places in the world that have the manufacturing experience as the Guangdong providence of China and as a result, 95% of every LED product you buy is elementally from Guangdong. The thing with Chinese manufacturing is you CAN get a good product from them, but you pay a premium for the attention and QC, and therefore your $200 retail items don't cost $.005usd/unit, like most other things commissioned for manufacture in China.
As far as dependability, the ONLY [digital] ballast I have ever had crap out on me was a NextGen (CAP), and they have since discontinued that particular model. The Nano's (CAP) I have, have the sequential start feature. First time the switch popped on 4 I was like "goddamnit........I've got 3 bad ballasts or bulbs......" haha.

So my shielding didn't work. I think if it had been wider with a lip it may have made more of a difference but my ΔT was only -5degF. Running 2 lights instead of 3 tells me that everything I did really amounted to squat. The floor intakes have some good v & V (Volume and Velocity) but I think what it feels like and what it actually is may be very different. The vents themselves are only 3.5" off the the concrete floor below the sub-floor, and the area is enclosed on the ends with framing. That means that the air that is getting through is just from cracks and seams and is likely very turbulent.
I am considering 1-2 options and may do both. I am considering boxing in a square duct from the side wall that goes to a 6" round 90° where the current vents are. This will give relatively unobstructed flow directly underneath the bulbs. Additionally, I think I may use some 6">8" reducers I have laying around to duct them to hang directly over the bulbs. This will work like people that have in exhaust piped right to the bulb but should, in theory, grab more air. The other end I will take to the outside of the carbon filter. It's times like this I really miss having an INLINE filter; that will come next.
I'll post pics, I see another all-nighter in my future! (I thought those were supposed to end after college??)
 

Skyrancher

Member
Looking to avoid poor quality in most things; certainly when buying a couple thousand dollars in ballasts. There are some "Made in China" manufactures that maintain QC? Now, how to figure out which one's? I hate to use the trial and error method I've come so fond of through the years. I should say I seem to learn my lessons
best when making errors. I've read numerous times about CAP products failing. I plan to cross them off the list.

SolisTek says they have less then 1% return rate, but I'm having a hard time finding anyone talking about them....good or bad. Badass is one I'm interested in for one reason. They have a low frequency square power wave, unlike most of the other companies with high frequency a sign wave pattern. Low freq most likely has a lot less RF issues? I've seen a couple comments about people having issues with Badass, though they were all a few years ago. Might be things are different now. Badass was not included in the Grower's House Review. More research to try and figure out what to buy.

Amazes me that it legal to put a"Made in USA" over the real country of manufacture. Seems like a clear case of fraud, but sounds like something our government would allow.

Sounds like you're figuring out the cooling issue. I'm surprised your temp change was only -5 degrees. By the way...how did you type a Delta symbol? You have some fancy keyboard?

Get some rest or your eyes are likely to start crossing up. Don't want to wake up withyour eyes looking in different directions.
 

OG_TGR

Member
On PC, usually you use ALT + 127 (ALT codes) to get Δ. I've got mine set up to F Keys.

Ugh, still don't have cooling dialed in......I think I am going to have to swap out the 10" duct/fan that I've got to make it work, for now. I think it may be "acceptable" now, I've got to check here shortly. I looked at modifying the umbrellas and it was more than I wanted to fab tonight, so I went with a direct extraction that seemed to be doing very nicely when I first started it up. It's been about an hour and I'm about to check it....fingers crossed.



22_zps592043fa.jpg

11_zps26d77d38.jpg


R is V1, L is V2, much better. I tried to use the semi-rigid ducting but found that once I got it in place I couldn't really get to it to position it right. The second version has a starting collar union that it is hanging from, to keep the mass square and the light self-righting.
I figured when I get a moment I can recycle the flashing I have into a slightly larger lip on the intakes here, if this seems to be working.


Update: Well, it's better, but not good enough. I got another -5°f so I'm down 10° from where I started; but still at ~87.xx. ....Tomorrow I will put in the 10" in place of the 6", guess I'm going to have to buy a new jigsaw!
 
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Skyrancher

Member
hahaha...right...you killed the last jigsaw !!! The dremel just wasn't working out. Man this project is taking a toll. Will be satisfying to get it up and running.

The setup looks cool !! Great job. Like the thought and effort you've put into this OG. With the 10" you should get another few degrees, of not right down to 80. Keeping my fingers crossed. That should get you through until AC comes into the picture.
 

Fly by Night

Like a Wing
Veteran
Hiya homie, I suspect a 6in vortex ain't gonna work well with 2400w hps. 6in scrubber lends itself to 600, 1000 and 1200w flowering ideally. I've used a 8in vortex with 2400w hps in vegg which was adequate. I'd still keep the intake off to the side for air circulation throughout the room as well.

All the best Holmes, prepare for a bundle of sticky this fall...peace!
 

OG_TGR

Member
Hiya homie, I suspect a 6in vortex ain't gonna work well with 2400w hps. 6in scrubber lends itself to 600, 1000 and 1200w flowering ideally. I've used a 8in vortex with 2400w hps in vegg which was adequate. I'd still keep the intake off to the side for air circulation throughout the room as well.

All the best Holmes, prepare for a bundle of sticky this fall...peace!

Hey bruh. Yeah, I was being quite optimistic in trying to do such a thing! If it was winter, maybe, but not in the dead of August.
I thought the other fan/filter I had was a 10" but it was in fact an 8", so I didn't bother moving it today.
I ordered a Fantech FKD10XL (1266cfm) and started staging everything for the swap. It's going to take a week to get here so I will start putting everything in either tonight or tomorrow. I'm not too worried about 85~86°f for a week or so in veg. Also, my RH is well under control so it will be a good transition time. I'm also going to go through and make sure the paint is good, so the new fan doesn't suck it all off as it implodes my space.....:biggrin:

Thanks for stopping by!
 

OG_TGR

Member
Well temp are clearly not as good as I thought they were. I will never, ever use one of those crappy Mondi thermos again. Here is some very detailed temps from last night: [edit: and today]
43E043A0440044304360430044E04490430044F044104400435043404300i_zpsa5e33b53.jpg


The max is ~36.3°c/97°f. RH is fine, if not low (avg 47.5% over a significant temp range). I have made a small change that I think will make a difference, and I'll check it again in a little while. I did have a light exhaust come unhooked at some point, I think it may have been around 1am, and maybe that made a difference. Just the fact that it got as high as it did, as fast as it did (33°>35.6°c in <1hr) is quite discouraging. Currently, I've only got 1200w of HPS in there. Shouldn't that be sufficient? I guess I need to reorient my intakes + add more.
 
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Skyrancher

Member
Bummer things the temps aren't settling down for you. Hard to beleive they're so high with the Fantech fan. Or did it show up yet?

Like the charts. What software, controller, and equipment are you using to make this happen? I've been looking into these for the bloom and veg rooms. Not great choices from what I can find.

I was look at the Fantech after you brought up mixed fans. I could find any great deals on a 12". The lowest price I could find was $520. Where did you buy yours?
 

OG_TGR

Member
Bummer things the temps aren't settling down for you. Hard to beleive they're so high with the Fantech fan. Or did it show up yet?

Like the charts. What software, controller, and equipment are you using to make this happen? I've been looking into these for the bloom and veg rooms. Not great choices from what I can find.

I was look at the Fantech after you brought up mixed fans. I could find any great deals on a 12". The lowest price I could find was $520. Where did you buy yours?

Oh no, unfortunately the Fantech won't be here until next week....I am sure everything will be good then. $520 for a mixed flow 12" Fantech would be a phenomenal price. Usually the 12" MF is in the $600-1000 range. Looking at retailers I see that there is great differences within Fantech's product line. There is the FKD and the FKDL models. The FKD 12, for example, is 1305cfm; whereas the FKDXL is 2016cfm (!). I ordered the 10" FKD10XL (~1270cfm) from a local place and it was somewhere around $570, shipped. I may actually see if I can get by without it for an extra week so I can tell them to ship it back and get me the 12", as it is only a couple dollars more usually, and +2000cfm. Depends if I have room for 12" duct, I suppose!

The data loggers I am currently using are derived from an Arduino platform and pieces of this and that; put together to make a data logger, lol. The reason many electronics suppliers (especially in the indoor horticulture arena) have "warranty" stickers is that, if you open them, many times you see the very elemental parts that are readily available or scavangable for pennies on the dollar.
Exetech makes a reasonably priced data logger that is available on Amazon. Never used them but as a consumer level environmental sensor company Exetech is pretty well entrenched. Lascar has a strong presence but I have no idea if they are worth a damn. Most of the data loggers on Amazon/Ebay, etc are Windows compatible, from what I've seen.

Well, I had some pics of my gigantic clones to post today but I seemed to have erased them, haha. Possibly tomorrow.
 
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OG_TGR

Member
Tick, tock. Really dead in the water until the fan arrives. Probably put the new duct in Monday or Tuesday, and the fan should be here Wednesday.
 

OG_TGR

Member
Went to shop for duct and duct work today and wow, the size of 12" duct work doesn't really sink in until you have some of the fittings in your hands! It's not like 2*6" or anything (it's actually 4*6", exactly).
So, since I am not using this fan at full speed, I decided to go with 10" duct work and reducers. It also turns out that once you get above 10"; simple fixtures are either very, very hard to find or 4-5x the cost of the 10" equivalent. This will still give me the flow I need and I have the capabilities to test the motor to make sure it isn't starved. Besides, has anyone priced a 2000cfm scrubber, lately?
wink.gif

Ironically enough, by the time this run is through, this will all be overkill.
So, here's where I am at:
11_zps13450b38.jpg


I ran the feed lines and decided to put the res outside the room. Makes sense, might as well. When constructing [the room] I wanted to keep everything contained within this space, so it would look like just a box with power and a duct. I realize this is unrealistic and if anyone is looking that close, I've already messed up.
I also plan on doing 2 emitters/site but realized today that I am about 50% short on spaghetti so, 1/site will do for now.
I got all the duct work staged to go in, and got a new jigsaw but; shit happens and again, I am delayed at LEAST a few hours tonight.
So, here is a shot of the "clones" that are going in....tomorrow?? I also checked my temps over the past few days and although my averages are around 86° and highs touch 90, I'm confident I will be fine for a couple days. At this point I will veg them for maybe a few more days in the system, just to get them acclimated to the light, and then let it rip. They are going on 6wks under flouros so, if I didn't get them in by this week for some reason, I'd start over with new clones, probably.

22_zpsc8fd597b.jpg
 
I'm liking it so far OG_TGR, I'm in for the duration here mate. Loving your attention to detail in the planning and layout, as opposed to make it work as I go along approach that I usually take. That's why I need to prep myelf up on this stuff before I venture into it.

How are the Smart pots for drainage at the very bottom, dont they hold a dead area of wet mix in the middle at the bottom?

Best of luck with this mate. :)
 

OG_TGR

Member
I'm liking it so far OG_TGR, I'm in for the duration here mate. Loving your attention to detail in the planning and layout, as opposed to make it work as I go along approach that I usually take. That's why I need to prep myelf up on this stuff before I venture into it.

How are the Smart pots for drainage at the very bottom, dont they hold a dead area of wet mix in the middle at the bottom?

Best of luck with this mate. :)

Thanks man!

Honestly this will be the first time I have run the smart pots in these saucers but, I plan on filling the saucers with >1" of hydrotons. This will put the lowest point of the pots higher than the highest center point on the saucers.

Using the smartpots in gutters has worked out fine for me, as long as they are either ridged for drainage or the bottom 2" or so of the smartpots filled with either chunky pearlite or hydrotons, for drainage.
 

Skyrancher

Member
Went to shop for duct and duct work today and wow, the size of 12" duct work doesn't really sink in until you have some of the fittings in your hands! It's not like 2*6" or anything (it's actually 4*6", exactly).
So, since I am not using this fan at full speed, I decided to go with 10" duct work and reducers. It also turns out that once you get above 10"; simple fixtures are either very, very hard to find or 4-5x the cost of the 10" equivalent. This will still give me the flow I need and I have the capabilities to test the motor to make sure it isn't starved. Besides, has anyone priced a 2000cfm scrubber, lately?

Got in last night from an oversees trip...still trying to wake up after sleeping 13 hours. Feeling pretty groggy.

Too little. too late on this, but here are the places I found for fans.

Mixed Flow Duct Fans

Fantech Line Mixed Flow 12” Duct Fan - $540
https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fantech/FKD-12XL-Inline-Mixed-Flow-12-inch-Duct-Fan-2-016-CFM-115-1-60/11922.ac

Fantech FKD 12XL 12 inch Duct Mixed Flow Fan -2016 CFM - $525
http://www.homeperfect.com/fantech-fkd-12xl-ventillation-fans.html

Vortex V Series In-Line Duct Blower Fans - $569
http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/hvac/exhaust-fans/in-line-duct-fans/vortex-inline-duct-blower-fans

FKD Series Round Inline Mixed Flow Centrifugal Fan, 12" Duct (2,016 CFM) - $540
http://www.pexsupply.com/Fantech-FKD12XL-FKD-Series-Round-Inline-Mixed-Flow-Centrifugal-Fan-12-Duct-2016-CFM?gclid=CMSm09Ox5rgCFcN_Qgod7j8AEQ

When you say, "It's not like 2*6" or anything (it's actually 4*6", exactly).", I understand it is bigger than you expected, but in which dimensions?

Glad you mentioned the issues with 12 inch ducting in price and availability. I may back off to 10" as well. What I really want to do is use a 12" fan, with 14" ducting to help reduce noise. I'll have a look around for parts, but I'm learning from you experience. Thanks

"I have the capabilities to test the motor to make sure it isn't starved."

Since I'm new to indoor, I know little about fans. How and why to you check if the fan is starved?

Good that you brought up the different Fantech models. I'll pay more attention now. The 12" XL for $525 is 2016 CFM, but the other model might be better. Like you, I'm planning to run my fan at a reduced speed for reduce noise levels.

OK...I'm too tired to type...back to bed....zzzzzz
 

Skyrancher

Member
The setup is looking good and taking shape. You're inspiring me to try using donuts. My room design isn't set in stone yet. I've been planning to use a stadium setup, which seems to be a good use of the long attic space I have.

Really looking forward to the fan delivery and the show to start !!
 

OG_TGR

Member
Got in last night from an oversees trip...still trying to wake up after sleeping 13 hours. Feeling pretty groggy.

Too little. too late on this, but here are the places I found for fans.

Mixed Flow Duct Fans

Fantech Line Mixed Flow 12” Duct Fan - $540
https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fantech/FKD-12XL-Inline-Mixed-Flow-12-inch-Duct-Fan-2-016-CFM-115-1-60/11922.ac

Fantech FKD 12XL 12 inch Duct Mixed Flow Fan -2016 CFM - $525
http://www.homeperfect.com/fantech-fkd-12xl-ventillation-fans.html

Vortex V Series In-Line Duct Blower Fans - $569
http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/hvac/exhaust-fans/in-line-duct-fans/vortex-inline-duct-blower-fans

FKD Series Round Inline Mixed Flow Centrifugal Fan, 12" Duct (2,016 CFM) - $540
http://www.pexsupply.com/Fantech-FKD12XL-FKD-Series-Round-Inline-Mixed-Flow-Centrifugal-Fan-12-Duct-2016-CFM?gclid=CMSm09Ox5rgCFcN_Qgod7j8AEQ

When you say, "It's not like 2*6" or anything (it's actually 4*6", exactly).", I understand it is bigger than you expected, but in which dimensions?

Glad you mentioned the issues with 12 inch ducting in price and availability. I may back off to 10" as well. What I really want to do is use a 12" fan, with 14" ducting to help reduce noise. I'll have a look around for parts, but I'm learning from you experience. Thanks

"I have the capabilities to test the motor to make sure it isn't starved."

Since I'm new to indoor, I know little about fans. How and why to you check if the fan is starved?

Good that you brought up the different Fantech models. I'll pay more attention now. The 12" XL for $525 is 2016 CFM, but the other model might be better. Like you, I'm planning to run my fan at a reduced speed for reduce noise levels.

OK...I'm too tired to type...back to bed....zzzzzz

Thanks for the info! I came across some of those sites as well.

As far as the size being larger than I expected; it was just so much larger in diameter than I envisioned in my head, lol. I could probably climb through a 12" takeoff!
Although I knew better, I guess I just thought about it in my head as 6*6, when in fact it's πr² [pi*radius^2].

You could test the motor while it is running to see what the resistance is and determine how it is running or you could not lead a horse to water, (as I a planning on doing, lol) and build a manometer, and test the negative pressure before the fan. This is relative to all the different cfm ratings you see for the same fan. Overall, you don't want to produce more back-pressure than the fan is rated for or the motor will wear out prematurely.

The difference between the 10 and 12 is substantial, as in 30#. The1/2 is actually quieter, too. I think the difference is something like 18/21 Sones.

I think you're probably right about the stadium and attic space, they would likely be the best space utilization but, it suppose goes to personal preference in the end.

I may still have a week until my fan shows up so I went ahead and ran the 10" duct and put in a 8" fan for now. Temp holding steady at 82° so I will get the ball rolling today/tonight for sure!
 

OG_TGR

Member
Just a thought, you may consider S&P fans, also.

http://www.atrendyhome.com/spductfans.html

I really like the modularity of them, giving them an advantage over all of the other MF fans. While not as powerful as the FKD12XL, the TD-315 could possibly work in a similar scenario, is $100+ cheaper, 15lbs lighter, and would be super easy to service/replace if the event ever arose.

Also, if you are restricted in space, you could parallel two smaller fans, and achieve the same volume.

That being said, I have never, ever had a good centrifugal fan go bad.
 

Skyrancher

Member
Thanks for the info! I like the easy serviceability of the S&P without having to remove the duct. I'm good on space outside the room, so running 2 smaller fans/ducts outside the room with returns on the opposite end could be a good solution to the 12"/14" duct work. Don't want to get my head stuck in there!! lol

1 fan on each side of the room that would promote airflow on the back side of the plants, with fans and AC pushing air down the middle the opposite direction, would setup 2 flow pattern around the room. You've opened another door of possiblity. Thanks. I was thinking big fan for big air flow. Sometimes I get hyper focused and don't see other solutions. Your thread and talking with you has helped a lot.

Glad you brought up the 12" duct issues. I've since been looking for supplies and prices and not liking what I see. Going with 2 smaller fans is looking better all the time.

What size inlet (at the base of the donut) are you going to run? I read a post from an HVAC guy saying that the inlet should be a size larger than the duct to decrease noise, but I was thinking about your inlet being wider/larger to expand the colum of air rising through the donut. This may come down to smaller duct/more directed air verses larger duct/wider area of air movement? Not sure this is an issue. Just a thought.

Meant to send a thank you for sending the links. You were right, I am interested in such things. I'm trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible to figure out this indoor thing. Much more complicated than outdoor.

I'll try to take and post some pics of my current outdoor project. That's has its' challanges as well, but that's another thread.
 

OG_TGR

Member
Good deal, glad this can be of some help to someone! I always have a sometimes distracting stream of ideas and it helps to sort out the chafe talking about them and other peoples ideas at the same time, for sure.
I really like the S&Ps. I know in high efficiency home designs the name is well known. The up front cost would be more for two fans but since they are a bit cheaper in the beginning, the price is worth less hassle/engineering a solution, imo.

You may consider just running them on one side, to keep everything fairly linear, flow wise. Introducing different air streams could potentially cause disturbance and possibly end up being less efficient in the long run. Depends on the specific orientation I suppose.

I've got 6" intakes under the lights at the moment. I was considering making them 8" and although I may do that next time, it's kind of too late now without being a hassle. If they were 8", the intake would be best served to be 10" over them, just to capture the most heat, I would imagine. I am still thinking of some sort of hood that basically covers the whole diameter, or close to it.

I made two small cone (additional 3" all the way around, tilted down ~5°) type assemblies out of the flashing I had, to attach to the intakes and theoretically capture more heat; but haven't assembled them yet. I want to get a good temp baseline over a couple days to see if anything I do is actually making an overall difference.

They intakes are already 8>6" reducers so, according to the Vent 101, should increase laminar flow into the duct work. Originally I was talking about putting reducers on them to increase velocity but idk now, maybe down the road as an experiment but it depends on my static pressure when the big fan is in.

Funny, I have never, ever done outdoor, so I would be lost to the finer points! :D

I had planned on doing this yesterday but had a snag. Today was a different story:

11_zpsc1d0d228.jpg


FINALLY, lol! I got them all in.
I used Canna Coco this time, as opposed to GH
60/40 - Coco/Lava rock
Pre-charged with 6.0pH and 350ppm nutes (FloraNova "expert DTW" schedule)
Diatomaceous Earth @ ~1 cup/2gal of mixed medium, for pest prevention

I did not put a layer of rock/pearlite on the bottom of the bags as I have done previously.
I didn't do this as I was originally intending of using a layer of rock in each saucer but I think now I will actually use the small .25x.25" grate I use in veg for drainage, but under the pots. Easier to reuse and may actually be even more effective.

I have to finish plumbing the drain tomorrow, just run a hose, and then mix/start nutes the day after, probably.

I also need to rethink my light support system, as I will be adding two more lights when the fan and/or the time comes. Now that I have the big bad ass fan, I may try the 4 screens next time, but I'm not moving everything around this time.

I usually let them set for at least a day to let the roots search for the nutes and get good and started in the medium.

Being that I am so far behind schedule and these plants got a bit larger than I had anticipated before going in, I may flip this weekend, but definitely by next weekend.
 
Looks cool mate, great job, you've obviously done your studies :). Could you not get away with two tiers of plants in that space though. Not everyone's angle on things though I know. ;)

Trev
 
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