Questions about H&G Cocos A+B

[Cereals]

Hello everyone

I am new to the forum and also to gardening. I am on my second run and am using very, very coarse and chunky coco coir and H&G Cocos A+B.

I am NOT using anything else from the H&G line. So far I have also been supplementing each watering with CaliMagic (from the start), because I am using RO water and I've read that it's needed.

The plants were showing what I took to be signs of calcium and magnesium deficiencies, so I eventually worked my way up to adding 5ml of CaliMagic per gallon of RO water, before adding in the Cocos A+B. By and large, this put an end to the yellow/browning of the leaf edges and spotting and such, but I am still seeing purple striping on the main stalk of the plant, and also purple creeping around the petioles. So far the undersides of the petioles are not yet purple, for the most part.The plants question are in veg from seed - about 2-3 weeks from sprouting. I have not been following the H&G feed chart because I do not intend to flower these girls (manifesting my reality@!) - I will keep them as mothers.

Anyway, enough background info - here are my questions:

1. I have been feeding them "full-strength" since they started showing sets of true leaves, and aside from the deficiencies mentioned above they have handled it well. I started at a total of 800 ppm after adding 2.5ml CaliMagic, and am now at about 1100pm-1200ppm total after adding 5ml of CaliMagic. My intentions are to keep feeding them at this level as long as they are mothers. Is this OK or how much do you guys feed your mothers?

2. Is it OK to do this with the H&G Cocos A+B nutes? I have read a few people stating that they heard from H&G themselves not to mess up the feeding schedule or everything would go haywire. I have are hard time believing this is the case, but like I said above I am completely new to gardening in general, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around how everything works.

3. If you use H&G Cocos A+B, roughly what kind of feeding schedule do you use? i.e. 300ppm for seedlings/clones, 900-1200ppm for veg, 1200-1400 ppm for flowering...

I had some other questions about CalMag and coco but it will get pretty long so I'll start another thread

Feel free to post answers to whatever you can answer, I'm looking for as much input as possible!

 

[simple green]

I mix half tap water and half RO/Dehumid water. I find it helps with ph stability. When feeding full strength with just RO/Dehumid water, my ph drops too low and raises very quickly with silica or ph up. Also, with some tap water, I (personally) haven't needed to add calmag using H+G coco like I have had to when using other non-coco-specific nutes......

It is hard for me to help you with your ppm amounts. I got by EC, which seems more "universal". Different ppm meters have different readouts/measurements....but those numbers sound high to me for young plants.

I work up to full strength. For freshly rooted cuttings I put about 3-4 ml per gallon and work my way up from there. It sounds like you might be overfeeding. Of course you also want to make sure your ph is between 5.5 and 6.

Not that this has anything to do with your problem, but if you're gonna buy anything else from H+G, their Roots Excellorator is all that.

Because you are a newbie, I'm gonna repeat what I read 100 times as a newbie but it took awhile for me to get the point....it's better to underfeed than overfeed (I'm talking about feed strength, not how often you water).

Flush with a weaker, ph'd nute solution and see how they look....(IMO)

 

[Cereals]

Funny that you should mention EC - I was just reading another post thinking that I should have used EC here instead of ppm. My meter uses a .5 EC conversion meter - so full strength for me is about 2.0-2.2 EC

What would strength you recommend as a weaker solution? 1.0 EC?

 

[Cereals]

Also, yes I am pH'ing the water to around 5.8. Actually I find that H&G Cocos A+B ph's itself pretty nicely! I usually just add a pinch of pH up and it's right where it should be.

 

[simple green]

That's a darn high EC. I'd be shooting for somewhere around .7-1.0 EC.

It doesn't really matter what you intend to do with the plants....it's more about giving them the proper diet for their current size/environment.

More isn't better.

 

[Cereals]

The reason the EC was so high is because of the purple petioles and streaking I was seeing I started thinking it was because they were hungry and worked my way up that high over a few days.

Anyway, the only problem I have is that if I add 5ml of CaliMagic I am at .64 EC already.

I think the real root of my problem has stemmed from not pre-charging my coco, and then from using CalMag with every watering. I think some lockouts are going on, however minor they may be.

I have read an increasing number of people saying they don't use CalMag with H&G Cocos A+B either.

So, based on your posts so far - a few more questions for you if you don't mind

1. Do you pre-charge your coco? If so do you use tap water or RO+CalMag? What about nutes?

2. Would you add CalMag initially if you weren't using an RO+tap mixture? I would assume the tap water adds the micro-nutrients the CalMag is needed for?

3. When you used other non-coco-specific nutes and needed to add CalMag - were you also using the same RO+tap mixture you are now?

Thanks so much for your help so far, I really want to get to the bottom of this!

 

[Cereals]

I should also mention - I haven't even given the H&G a chance so far this run - I've been adding CaliMagic since day one.

I ran into issues last run (my first), and then had it in my head at the start that I should be adding it every watering again - I didn't wait for problems to arise.

Now the problems are here, but like I said I think the CaliMagic is the cause not the solution!

I think it may be to late this run - I am starting to think the key is to precharge the coco and then keep it moist consistently throughout the grow. And this way the cation balance is maintained and only RO+nutes+pH is needed.

So one more question for you if you don't mind...

4. Do you keep your coco consistently moist throughout vegging? Or does it dry out at all?

 

[simple green]

Well, when I get coco, more than "precharge it", I'm making sure it doesn't have too much salts already in it, so I more start by flushing with a weak-nute mix....maybe 2.5 ml per gallon of A and B, maybe a ml of calmag per gallon if I feel like it. But again, this is a real light mix to make sure the coco isn't too strong....

1. Then I begin watering with appropriate strength mix. No calmag needed for me with H+G. 2. I prob wouldn't be using calmag if I were using all RO water, unless I saw a deficiency. Then I'd be adding 1-2 ml per gallon of cal mag...you're totally overdoing it on the calmag.

3. I'm weird in that when mixing water/nutes, I don't like adding ph up/down(no real reason) or prefer to add as little as possible. So I've figured out that a certain ratio of my tap water mixed with RO/Dehumid water leaves my ph right about 5.7-5.8 and I find it lovely. That's my main reason.

I alluded to this before but think it's worth repeating, because when I started I had the same mindset as you...that I gotta make sure my plants get "enough" and that it has to be complicated..... but if you're trying to get down to the bottom of it, you gotta readjust your growing/feeding mentality.

You're adding too much cal-mag to fix a cal-mag deficiency that doesn't exist. You're feeding young plants a stronger nute solution than I feed my girls in the middle of flowering. You're dosing the hell out of your plants. H+G has everything your plants need, and they don't need too much of it. I keep a litre of cal-mag around and every year I throw the bottle away 5/6 full and get another just in case it goes bad. In flower, I work my way up to 1.5 EC and feel that's plenty.

When you feed too strong, it's going to show in burn or lock out some nutrients and look like a deficiency.

More isn't better. Put the calmag on the back of the shelf and don't feel the need to go beyond 2 ml per gallon when adding it to nutes. I don't find it necessary with H+G. And take it back on the H+G A+B also. Shoot for .7EC and see how much your plants will love it.

I'd love to see you escape the mentality that you gotta dose your plants up with strong nutes and make sure there's plenty of every nutrient ASAP. Your plants will love you if you give them less. It took me too many grows to get that mentality. On this first grow, stay away from PK boosters. That's another way I dosed the hell out of my plants as a newbie, and only hurt yield/quality.

Less is more! Good luck.....

Edit #4: After transplant I may let it dry out a little once or twice, but as a general rule I keep it moist throughout veg....If your roots aren't looking healthy, it's more likely (at this point....) because you're feeding it such strong nute solution that the plants and roots arent' healthy..

 

[habeeb]

I honestly think you should drop the cal / mg, that's also a ridiculous amount to run. that bottle also has iron and N, which H&G has all you need. ( I'll tell you a story, as when I ran heads formula, I messed with ca/mg, I ended up needing 1/2 ml.. that's it ! , best plants I ever ran in veg, ever )

I've run it in R/O without. did just fine, good green. if anything, you need a pinch of epsoms.



trying running plain, before anticipating something... as someone said above, better to underfeed then overfeed.. you can always add more, you can't ever subtract.


I'm actually planning to get a sample tested by lab to see what's exactly in the formula were feeding.. I'm sure some people are interested. I have a canna coco tes tin my album if interested.. I can tell you though plain and simple H&G runs different formulas, as I've run both.



I've done both ( moisture of coco ) as I've had 2 foot plants in half gallon so they would dry out every day. but then ran smaller plants always moist, never seen problems with either. also plants seem to tolerate dry media better in coco then peat.


never to late if your plants looks damaged. bonsai them. they actually love being tortured. just do what I did in the picture, chop the roots very very small.



then they look like this

 

[farmdalefurr]

what everybody is saying is dead on, less is not more

I run H&G cocos a/b (5ml/gallon MAX), calimagic (2ml/gallon), roots excel (1.1ml/gallon) in veg

in RO water my ppms are around 6-630ish (.5 scale) in veg with those 3

flower I max out around 850 using the a/b (7ml/gallon) and hydroplex (5ml/gallon)

very basic mix that gives great results, for me at least

do you have any pictures of the plants?

 

[LEDNewbie]

I started using H&G coco a&b last round and was experiencing weird deficiencies here and there. A couple veteran growers recommended i switch to h&g aqua flakes. I made the Switch to H&G Aqua Flakes and added some Epsom salt every watering and my plants were so healthy it was silly!!!!

This round I'm trying Canna coco a&b with 1ml per gallon of CalMag once per week and plants so far are super healthy..... I'd ditch the H&G coco a&b. I see people having problems with it on many forums.

 

[otis33]

a teaspoon/5gals of epsoms for my cal mag hungry strains had them looking healthy in no time. I have fed at 1 ec in veg 1-1.2 ec in flower base only on my last two runs and they have been as good if not better than runs using the full line, as far as yield. I have aqua flakes at one house and cocos a&b at the other and I honestly don't see a noticeable difference in quality or yield. anyway, try epsoms and drop the cal mag. good luck!

 

[RedBeardy5]

I always get my cal/mag to 200ppms first, anything less I always get problems. Ill try 150ppm and in a day or 2 I have rust marks, I also use H&G coco nutes.

 

[otis33]

I always get my cal/mag to 200ppms first, anything less I always get problems. Ill try 150ppm and in a day or 2 I have rust marks, I also use H&G coco nutes.

you should give a gram/ gal of epsoms a try, there is enough calcium in the cocos a&b. I think adding more calcium could potentially lock out something else. like I said above, even my most cal mag hungry strains only need a bit of Epsom with the coco a&b.

 

[Cereals]

YOu all are so great Thanks for the advice - both my girls and myself are very grateful!

I have eliminated the CaliMagic for now to see what happens, and am just feeding them RO+H&G Cocos A+B mixed to an EC of about .75 .-8 as suggested by simple green.

So far the Brown/Grayish mottled edges and spots that I were taking for Ca/Mg deficiencies are reappearing starting on the oldest growth on a few of the seedlings, the rest of the seedlings leaves are starting to look like this a bit, though not so bad yet:

This is definite Mg def - correct? I'll try to get some pics of the actual plants later.

This is really leading me to believe the problem is more than likely lockout - I have been feeding such high CaliMagic doses, there is no way there could be a lack of Ca/Mg in the medium at this point - right?

If things persist, I will try adding some epsom salts as suggested by habeeb and otiss33, at the rate otis33 mentioned - 1/gram per gallon of RO - hopefully this will remedy the situation.

 

[RedBeardy5]

IDK I have been growing coco for awhile and i'm telling you guys if your RO water comes out to 0ppm then you need 200ppm of cal/mag. I'm going to try the Epsom salt Otis is talking about,

 

[Snow Crash]

Cereals,
That is about as text book a picture of interveinal chlorisis as I have ever seen. Nice shot.

Given the progression of the issue so evenly through the plant it's pretty easy to rule out environmental variables like ambient heat and leaf temperature. Not 100% of the source of the problem but its definitely some kind of element imbalance.

Best thing to do is to foliar feed with an Epsom Salt solution. This will stop the necrosis from kicking in too hard.

1 gram = 1000 milligrams
Epsom Salt = 9.8% Magnesium
1 gram of Epsom Salt = 98 milligrams of Magnesium
ppm = mg/L
1 gallon = 3.78L
1 gram of Epsom Salt in 1 gram of water = 98mg/3.78L = 25.9ppm Magnesium

1 gram per gallon of Epsom Salt could easily double the Magnesium ppm in the solution. Be cautious when using, I tend to use more like 0.625g (1/8th tsp) per gallon for about a 16ppm increase. For a foliar I suggest using 0.625g or 1/8th tsp in a liter of water. Apply to the under side of the leafs just at lights on every other day for 3 foliar feedings. On the fourth foliar use just water. Including a surfactant, like a drop of biodegradeable unscented Ivory dish soap, will improve the effect of the spray.

 

[otis33]

I'm not too exact on my Epsom measurement, I just have a teaspoonI got from baskin robbins that added to 5 gallons of water. I weighed it once and it was almost 5 grams. it's worth trying, epsoms are very inexpensive and the guaranteed analysis of cocos a&b has a low# of mag in relation to the other numbers. I also do not use ro, but my tap is unusually clean, about 50ppm.

 

[RedBeardy5]

Wow I have city water and it comes to about 180ppm. Cant believe you get 50ppm, lucky

 

[Cereals]

Yeah my tap water is about the same RedBeardy - and very alkaline, like 8.0+

It takes so much pH down to get it in range that it's not even worth using as my EC goes off the chart.

Anyway - yesterday I added .5 gram of epsom salts the girls food - I did this before adding the nutes, .5 grams added approximately .15 EC to my RO.

I then added the H&G Cocos A+B, around 3.75 mL of both A and B - to bring my total EC to around .93 EC or so.

So far things are looking better - I will continue to update here. A few plants looked like they were going to need some CaliMagic or kick the bucket the first days, but it looks like the damage spread is slowing now and they may be returning to balance - I'll be prayin!

Still trying to get around to taking some pics - the seedlings in question are Tiki's Bambata and Mandala's Hashberry