Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[rives]

Reading about the 400 W Phillips Mastercolor I got the impression that the vertical bulb is designed to be in a fixture with reflector casting light in a downward direction. But it was a bit confusing to me. Is my interpretation right here? If so then it wouldn't be that useful as a bare bulb in a vertical grow.

This has me confused also. there's much discussion in this thread about using vertical lamps in horizontal reflectors. If you ask me, thread should not be allowed to get this large. Over 300 pages of arguing and very little actual information.

The lamp orientation has nothing to do with how the reflector casts the light. There are flood lights that are meant to cast light a primarily horizontal plane that use either a horizontal lamp or a vertical lamp. There are also downlight fixtures that position the lamp either horizontally or vertically. The lamp orientation within the fixture is what determines which lamp design you use - if the long axis of the lamp is parallel to the ground, then you need a horizontal lamp. If the long axis is at right angles to the ground, then a vertical lamp is needed. There are also some vertical lamps that are designed for base up orientation, and others that are for base down. "Universal" lamps can be used in any orientation.

 

[swany]

I've not read the whole thread, so my apologies if I'm redundant on this...

DNA Lighting Solutions - 900w CMH

I just saw an add in HighTimes and then found an inverview on YouTube with the company owner.

Looks interesting and I'm searching for anything I can find out. Found this thread and it seems I came to the right place. Anyone have info on these? Based on the spectrum they claim it's worth some investigation time. Great power output from about 440 to 750, no peaks just solid light energy.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

The lamp orientation has nothing to do with how the reflector casts the light.

So does the vertical 400 W Phillips Mastercolor project light perpendicular to the orientation of the bulb, just as the horizontal 400 W Mastercolor does? I.E. would the 400 W vertical be just fine as a vertically hanging bare bulb for growing purposes?

 

[rives]

So does the vertical 400 W Phillips Mastercolor project light perpendicular to the orientation of the bulb, just as the horizontal 400 W Mastercolor does? I.E. would the 400 W vertical be just fine as a vertically hanging bare bulb for growing purposes?

Yes, the bulk of the light from any HID lamp that I've seen is perpendicular to the long axis of the lamp. The designed lamp orientation has nothing to do with how the light emanates from the lamp - the orientation specification is to insure that the internal bracing of the lamp is optimized to counteract the effects of gravity when the lamp is at operating temperature.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Many thanks rives. Your the man.

 

[Koalaman]

Yes, the bulk of the light from any HID lamp that I've seen is perpendicular to the long axis of the lamp. The designed lamp orientation has nothing to do with how the light emanates from the lamp - the orientation specification is to insure that the internal bracing of the lamp is optimized to counteract the effects of gravity when the lamp is at operating temperature.

I have horizontal Phillips 400w cmh. What would happen if I tried to use it in the verticle position? Could it like explode or something like that or would it just maybe degrade the lamp more quickly? If it is just a case of degradation and no chance of something catastrophic happening, then could I get away with using an old bulb that has probably already reached the maximum 20% loss of lumens as no further degradation would be possible to occur. Or would using it in this position cause the bulb to degrade even further than it usually does? ?
If it can be used this way and stays at 80% of original lumens I would be happy to use it like this until the bulb dies even if it were to die sooner just as long as when it does die it doesn't explode or cause the ballast to catch fire. ..

 

[Koalaman]

I'm 99% sure that the answer is no BUT has anyone found a digital/switchable/dimmable ballast that will fire the retro whites or any CMH?

I swear people were saying they were firing them with Galaxy's and others? I think it is probably best not though. I remember that the frequencies didn't match up right or something?

www.accendoelectronics.com/GloGreen-Digital-HID-Ballast-Fixture-Products.shtml

I also want to switch to digi ballast for my 400w Philips cmh. Also I'm thinking to maybe try out the 315w new ones. I can't find hardly any independant info at all on these digi ballasts but it seems like they blow everything else away.
It says you can use them for cmh (aswell as mh hps).
It says they maintain 95% lumens of whatever light you use with them.
It says they apply less energy to heat.
And most of all it says that you use a smaller wattage. Eg. 400w cmh would run in a 200w ballast. 315w in a 150w ballast.
Seems to me like this would be huge electricity savings, constantly better light for plants with 95% lumens for the whole life span of even a hps globe and you can use the globe for its entire lifespan never having to worry about is my light bulb still efficient when should I change it...
And seems like this product has a been on the market for a few years now I really don't understand why it is that only one grower on the whole Internet seems to own one. It seems like a truly revolutionary product for the whole industry but maybe being let down by poor customer service. They don't respond to enquiries....
So my questions before I buy one is:
Can I definately run my 400w Phillips cmh on their 200w digi ballast.
And
Would I be able to run a new 315w cmh on their 150w ballast.
I have no idea about frequencies and stuff like that but I mean think about it, there was a guy on this thread that said the 315w out yielded a 600w hps... if you could run the light that out yields 600w hps on a 150w ballast then you would be out yielding a 600w hps with only using 150w !!

I really want to get one of these but only if it's going to work. Can someone pls tell me if it will work or not. Thx

 

[rives]

I have horizontal Phillips 400w cmh. What would happen if I tried to use it in the verticle position? Could it like explode or something like that or would it just maybe degrade the lamp more quickly?

I can't say from direct experience because I've never run lamps out of position, but it is my understanding that it can cause not only premature physical failure of the lamp, but also color changes and lumen output changes. The following is from a pretty good pdf on the subject, link at the bottom:

HID – The Burning Question ...
Base Up, Base Down or Horizontal:
What’s the Deal with Orientation?
By Jerry Cassel, LC
Senior Specification Engineer

How many times have you wondered why a certain lamp is vertical base up or vertical base down, universal or horizontal? What does it matter and why should I need to know?

The reason for the concern, or at least something to be aware of, has more to do with color consistency, lumen output and life. So, lets explore these issues.

Unlike incandescent and fluorescent lamps where color variations are usually imperceptible, metal halide lamps have a normal expected color variation lamp-to-lamp and over life. To the casual observer, this color difference may be judged as improper lamp operation. Though all manufacturers of Quartz Metal Halide lamps attempt to control this variation, current science of the technology makes the total elimination of color variation a physical impossibility. However, understanding and adjusting certain factors over which the user has control can achieve some additional reduction of color variation.

GE standard Multi-Vapor® lamps are multi-component lamps. The lamp contains various metals, which reside in the arc tube in gaseous form. Applying a voltage to the arc tube electrodes produces light. That voltage excites the gaseous metals to the point where they emit light — each metal emitting a different spectral color.

LAMP-TO-LAMP COLOR VARIATION
Variations in the individual pressures of each of the gasses produce minute but nevertheless noticeable variations in lamp color appearance. This electrically produced light can be additionally affected by other variables as well. Variables such as arc tube dimensional variability, temperature effects, chemical mixture tolerances, input voltage variations, ballast wattage control and a host of other contributing factors all affect a lamps appearance.

VARIATION OVER OPERATING LIFE
During the first 100 hours of lamp operation (referred to as lamp seasoning), the halides are blending together for the first time and will display even wider color variation than when they reach their stable operating point beyond 100 hours. At about the 100-hour point, the halides are sufficiently mixed so that infant variation is minimized. However, as a population of lamps begins to age, another color shift becomes apparent. This phenomenon occurs as the chemistry changes within the arc tube as a result of sodium migration through the arc tube wall. This type of color shift is predictable in direction. The standard family of Multi-Vapor® lamps normally shifts to a warmer color (lower Kelvin temperature), while the family of lamps with an MXR prefix (Halarc® lamps), shifts to a cooler color (higher Kelvin temperature) as the lamps age. This color shift becomes most obvious when a new lamp is installed in place of a burned out lamp that has shifted in color.

COLOR SHIFT — MEASUREMENT AND CONTROL
The appearance of the lamp’s color is described by the measurement of the Correlated Color Temperature (CCT). The normal expected color variation of a population of MVR400 lamps can be as little as 600 Kelvin (K), or as much as 1000 K. All lamps will fall within the industry-wide standard “10 step color oval.” Visually, in simple terms, a one-step color oval increment on the x, y CIE Chromaticity Diagram represents approximately 100 K. metal halide lamps are usually made in small batches that have less color variation than the wider 10-step color oval. If an installation receives lamps from a smaller batch, the color spread will often be less than if the several smaller batches are mixed. Burn orientation can effectively influence these color variation qualities. Mercury and High-Pressure Sodium lamps may be operated in any burn position and will still maintain their rated performance specifications. Metal Halide and Low-Pressure Sodium lamps, however, are optimized for performance in specific burn positions, or may be restricted to certain burn positions for safety reasons. They are:

U = Universal burning position
HBU = Horizontal -15° to Base Up
HBD = Horizontal +15° to Base Down
HOR = Horizontal ±15°
H45 = Horizontal to ±45° only
VBU = Vertical Base Up ±15°
VBD = Vertical Base Down ±15°
If no special burn position is noted,
the burn position is universal.

LUMENS — LUMENS LISTED ARE REFERENCE LUMENS
Rated average lamp lumens are obtained under controlled laboratory conditions in a prescribed burning position. Initial Reference Lumens refer to the lamp lumen output after 100-hours burning. Mean Reference Lumens refer to the lamp lumen output at the mean lumen point during lamp life. The mean lumen point occurs at 50% rated life for HPS and mercury lamps, and at 40% rated life for metal halide lamps. Lamp performance on typical systems under typical service conditions will vary from the reference lumen ratings. High Intensity Discharge (HID) lighting systems are subject to a wide range of variations that may affect final lighting levels. As a result, lamp performance on actual systems may vary due to lamp orientation, ambient temperatures, ballast variations, line voltage and other reasons. Care must be taken when choosing a system to consider how these changes can affect your light levels both initially and at the mean lumen point.

LIFE EXPECTANCY AND POSSIBLE LAMP FAILURE
Most HID lamps are constructed of an outer bulb with an internal arc tube made of quartz. The arc tube operates under high pressure at very high temperatures — as high as approximately 1100°C. The arc tube and outer bulb may unexpectedly rupture due to internal causes or external factors such as a system failure or misapplication. An arc tube rupture can burst and shatter the outer glass bulb resulting in the discharge of glass fragments and extremely hot quartz particles (as high as 1100°C). There is a risk of personal injury, property damage, burns and fire. Because of this, some Metal Halide lamps are “position-sensitive” and must only be operated in specified burning positions using compatible electrical equipment and installation in suitable fixture types as prescribed in the LET “Lamp Enclosure Type” designation field of the manufacturer’s catalog. For more information about the use of Metal Halide lamps, see NEMA’s "Best Practices for Metal Halide Lighting Systems, Plus Questions and Answers about Lamp Ruptures in Metal Halide Lighting Systems,"NEMA LSD 25-2004. Note: HPS and mercury are not position-sensitive and may be operated in any burning
position.

EFFECTS FROM IMPROPER ORIENTATION
The Arc tube may become bulged or swollen. After extended operating hours some bulging is normal, especially in the off-vertical burning position. If a lamp bulges prematurely, this condition may indicate the lamp is operating at a higher-than-rated wattage due to miswiring, using the wrong lamp on specific ballast or the fixture optical system is directing too much heat onto the arc tube. This problem must be corrected or else the lamp may unexpectedly shatter.

POTENTIAL FOR NON-PASSIVE FAILURE
Normal end-of-life (EOL) of these lamps is a “non-start” condition, resulting from a loss of sodium from the arc that changes the electrical characteristic so that the ballast can no longer sustain the lamp. The 400- and 1,000-watt lamps, when burned vertical ±15, usually have a passive EOL failure mode. Other wattages, regardless of burning position, and the 400- and 1000-watt lamps when burned in other positions, can fail in a non-passive manner, and the outer bulb may shatter. Therefore, they should be operated only in an enclosed fixture that will contain the lamp if it shatters. Color at EOL will usually be warmer (pinker) than a new lamp, since the arc tube has blackened due to electrode deterioration. This can cause a change in the thermal balance within the arc tube that results in this color change.

ORIENTATION IN OPEN FIXTURES
For lamps operated in the vertical position that are not designated “Enclosed Fixtures Only – Type E,” lamps may be used in an open or enclosed lighting fixture depending upon the application and operating environment. For example, if the lamp is located near combustible material or in an area unoccupied for extended periods, an enclosed fixture that can contain fragments of hot quartz or glass is recommended.


http://www.geappliances.com/email/lighting/specifier/2008_07/downloads/HIDBurnOrientation.pdf

 

[Koalaman]

Wow great info thx rives!
Definately not a good idea to burn your lamp in the wrong position!
And not a great idea to use an non open fixture lamp without a fixture either!
I have only ever used this one type of lamp so far but was thinking to try hps from week 3 onwards as that seems to be the consensus here, so once again thanks for the reply I will be sure to check the hps I use is open fixture rated.
I guess the new 315w one is probably open fixture too

 

[DrFever]

Hey Wazzup lol when are they going to drop the prices on the :LEP plasma's its just ridiculous

 

[rives]

I guess the new 315w one is probably open fixture too

Only the double-envelope T12 315w lamps are open-fixture rated - the T9, single-envelope lamps are only for enclosed fixtures.

 

[Koalaman]

Only the double-envelope T12 315w lamps are open-fixture rated - the T9, single-envelope lamps are only for enclosed fixtures.

Cheers!

 

[Illumination]

Write Dna on their website...the single bulb unit is $550 with ballast and an adapter to fit it to most hoods...or $160 more for an OG hood

$650 for the dual bulb ballast and adaptor and it is the Philips CMH 315 watt bulb but supposedly their own ballast with high frequency matched to bulb for long life and consistent spectrum

2 year lamp warranty...1 year DNA plus an additional year from Philips
5 year dna ballast warranty

 

[Stoogots]

Here I am

I uploaded my room when i was using the Daylight bulb(4200°K)
I switched to 12/12 on 21 june and mounted the Agro bulb (3000°K)

On 26 July

And here we are on 10 july

only 350w to cover 130*170

 

[greenwithenvy]

Tru Sun 900 Bulb Ballast Combo.

 

[babelfish]

Tru Sun 900 Bulb Ballast Combo.
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Finally higher wattage cmh is a reality eh? How close to the canopy can you come with this, vs a 1k mh vs a 1k hps?

 

[k-s-p]

.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

that light bulb is prettier than a bong

 

[babelfish]

Finally higher wattage cmh is a reality eh? How close to the canopy can you come with this, vs a 1k mh vs a 1k hps?

!bump

 

[Carlos Danger]

It's been a while since I dealt with lights, a couple questions for the cmh crowd. 1) What sort of grams per watt are you seeing, and 2) how many watts per square feet are you using? I'm erring on the side of 75/sq. Ft. but have heard 50 is acceptable.