Nutes too strong w Lucas Formula???

[MichaelVick]

Hey guys I am hoping to get some help here. I am trying to determine why my plants' leaves are curling downward and in. See the pics attached. They look claw shaped or kinda like a canoe. This has happened the last three crops and I am banging my head trying to figure it out.

My local shop thinks it may be because my nutes are mixed too strong. I've gone over most everything and nothing seems really out of spec. I have three years experience growing but this is my first attempt at a sealed room and I'm doing it with all new strains. I'm also attempting the lucas formula for the first time so I'm thinking maybe it is the nutes. My local shop advises against the Lucas Formula but I know it can work based on so many people using it. I am starting to question the recommended strength of Lucas. Is the basic 8ML/16ML ratio too strong for some strains? Or do some strains require that you start lower and gradually build up to that strength?

If anyone has seen leaves like this before please let me know. Any advice from experienced growers is much appreciated!!!

Details of my grow are below the pics. Please ask if I've left anything out.




HYDROPONICS/ SOG

How long has this problem been going on? It seems to start after vegging in the first week of flower (but I only veg for 5-7 days)
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) No. Sealed room. No exhaust. Mini-split, CO2 burner & Santa Fe Classic Dehumidifier.
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Home made AeroFlo (NFT/aeroponics)
What STRAIN are you growing? Super Skunk, Norther Lights & NL5xHaze
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Cloned from healthy mothers
What is the age of your plants? 7 days of veg then 2 weeks of flower at this point
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) 3" netpots and hydroton the entire time.
How tall are the plants? 9-16"
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? starting 3rd week of flower
What Technique are you using? SOG
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) Hydroton
What is the Water temperature? 72-74 deg F
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? Great looking roots. White to beige color. I use Dutch Master Zone.
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) Lucas Formula with General Hydro three part (Micro and Bloom). I also add GH Calimag and Dutch Master Zone
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 60G water with 500ML Micro and 1000ML Bloom. Then 300ML Calimag and 125ML DM ZONE
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless) I have been doing the "add-back" method. I add nutes every 4-7 days keeping the PPM very close to 1000 ppm (NaCL .5 scale) IS THIS TOO STRONG FOR SOME STRAINS??? TOO STRONG TOO SOON??? It is the recommended amount for lucas based on all of my reading...
How often are you giving nutrients? above
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? I have been following the Lucas formula ratio since day one. I started them all at 600ppm for the 7 days of veg then went to full strength Lucas at 1000ppm when starting flower.
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) I fill the rez. Then add micro, then bloom, then calimag and last I add the ZONE.
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 1000 ppm (.5 NaCl scale)
What is the pH of the "Tank"? It has been kept between 5.6 and 5.9. I check it daily but don't hardly need to adjust it ever.
How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS? Daily
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment? I calibrated my meters 45 days ago.
When was your last watering? Water flow cycles for 2 minutes on then 6 minutes off.
What is your water temps? 72-74 degrees F
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) I used the same water for the first three weeks (one week of veg and two of flower). Just kept topping it off and adding nutes as needed. Since I continue to have problems I just changed the rez after flower week two. I cleaned everything and started w fresh water and nutes for week three.
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? I am experimenting with this. I am reading that many people use the same rez for 60+ days and just top it off with water and occasionally nutes. Is this a bad practice??? I was going to try that but changed it due to the problems.
What size bulb are you using? 1000W HPS
How old is the bulbs you are using? 6 months
What is the distance to the canopy? 30 inches
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 40% with lights on but 50-60% with lights off
What is the canopy temperature? 84 deg F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 84 day - 70 night
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) Sealed room with three air circulating fans on the walls. No exhaust ever.
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? No exhaust ever. I burn propane for CO2 enrichment. The CO2 level stays between 1050 and 1150 ppm. Could that be too low???
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Air circulating fans blow just above the canopy
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Not really sure. It is 80ppm (.5 NaCl scale) after I run it through my BigBoy Sediment/dechlorinating filter.
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? I only use tap water that has been put through my BigBoy Sediment/dechlorinating filter.
If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap? It comes out of my filter at 80ppm.
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives? It comes out of my filter at 80ppm.
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? Yes. I discovered a broad mite problem two weeks ago. A few leaves were deformed and some yellowing and spotted. I started pest control chemicals two weeks ago. I sprayed Avid and then used a Pylon TC bomb. All problems have gone away but the curled down leaves!!!
Are plant's infected with pest's? I believe most of them are dead now...

 

[audiohi]

I've typically seen 8/16 used in soil mediums. 6/9 used for hydro or coco. I still go a bit lighter in coco then that

 

[MichaelVick]

I've typically seen 8/16 used in soil mediums. 6/9 used for hydro or coco. I still go a bit lighter in coco then that

OK. Thanks for the reply. I didn't know that. In my reading about Lucas Formula I didn't see anything about different strengths for all hydro. I did see where the formula was different for coco but since I just use netpots and hydroton I didn't think that applied to me.

So I guess I need to be following the coco version of the Lucas Formula?

Anyone else have experience with netpots, hydroton and Lucas Formula???

 

[MichaelVick]

Bump. Anyone else have input?

Since I first posted this I have flushed my system with fresh water and then started with a fresh mix using the Lucas Formula ratio 1:2 but not full strength. Something like 5ML micro/10ML bloom per gallon and it yielded a mix around 600ppm which is about what I was shooting for. After 3 days it looks like the tips of my plants are straightening up quite a bit. Not 100% corrected but a definite improvement in most all of them.

So that leads me to believe my mix of 1000ppm was causing the problem and was just too strong. Does anyone else find this to be true when doing hydro and using Lucas Formula? Or at least in the first few weeks of flower?

Thanks for you input...

Cheers

 

[audiohi]

I do 6/9 per gallon then add RO water until I have my desired ppm I also add cal mag sometimes as well. That might work for you.

 

[MichaelVick]

I do 6/9 per gallon then add RO water until I have my desired ppm I also add cal mag sometimes as well. That might work for you.

What desired PPM do you use? Do you do the rez change method or the add-back method?

I have been doing the add-back method and keeping the PPM at 1000. It now seems that 1000 was too strong for my strains...

 

[MichaelVick]

What desired PPM do you use? Do you do the rez change method or the add-back method?

I have been doing the add-back method and keeping the PPM at 1000. It now seems that 1000 was too strong for my strains...

But also - I have not been topping the rez with fresh water very frequently. I have been letting it drop to 25-40% of the original level and then topping with water and adding nutes all at the same time. I do monitor the ppm everyday to make sure it isn't getting too strong but the water level seems to drop and the ppm stays the same or increases. After reading more about the lucas formula is sounds like most people are topping off the rez with plain water constantly so the ppm gradually declines. I'm thinking this may be why my plants are overfed. If you constantly top the rez w plain water your average ppm will be lower than mine. My average has stayed around 1000ppm because I haven't been topping w plain water everyday. Does that make since?

 

[moodster]

just top up my res with fresh nutes never had a problem I run 6/9ml head formula with a bit of head masta in there hope that helps bud

 

[MichaelVick]

just top up my res with fresh nutes never had a problem I run 6/9ml head formula with a bit of head masta in there hope that helps bud

OK guys. I am still struggling with this curling issue.

Tonight I tried the 6/9 version of lucas as you suggested. I mixed exactly 6ml of micro and 9ml bloom per gallon into my 60gallon rez and the strength came out to be 725ppm (.5 NaCl scale). That is much lower than the 950-1000ppm the 8/16 formula yields. Of course that is to be expected since you are adding less nutes but I just wanted to confirm what you guys do.

What ppm do you shoot for with the 6/9 formula? Do you keep you rez at around 725ppm???

Thanks in advance for your quick reply. Your help is much appreciated...

 

[audiohi]

You shouldn't be to strong at that amount. Any more pics? Any pests that you see on the roots or in the medium?

 

[audiohi]

Oh... I just saw you had mites. I bet you haven't gotten rid of them

 

[MichaelVick]

I don't have more pics at the moment but it seems the 6/9 mix straightend the leaves out a bit.

I have been battling a broad mite issue. I sprayed avid and dropped a couple bombs early. That seemed to kill them but they came back late flower when I couldn't use any more pesticides. The top leaves started dying prematurely. I plan to go to war with those bastards from the start of the next round.

So should I just keep it at around 700-800 ppm with that 6/9 mix throughout the next cycle?

Thanks again...

 

[MichaelVick]

Yea I am fighting the broad mites. I have three strains running. Two of them have the dead and deformed leaves at the top which I am sure are mites.

The third is the one doing the curling. Since the leaves on those weren't dead and showing the same symptoms I assumed the mites didn't get them. They are just curling and were still doing so when I sprayed and killed a lot of the mites. Do you think the curling is from the mites too??? Could they just be showing different symptoms from the mite damage???

 

[Snype]

OK guys. I am still struggling with this curling issue.

Tonight I tried the 6/9 version of lucas as you suggested. I mixed exactly 6ml of micro and 9ml bloom per gallon into my 60gallon rez and the strength came out to be 725ppm (.5 NaCl scale). That is much lower than the 950-1000ppm the 8/16 formula yields. Of course that is to be expected since you are adding less nutes but I just wanted to confirm what you guys do.

What ppm do you shoot for with the 6/9 formula? Do you keep you rez at around 725ppm???

Thanks in advance for your quick reply. Your help is much appreciated...

Instead of the 6/9 formula, I use 1 part micro to 1.5 parts bloom. That is very similar to 6/9. You could go less also if you wanted to. Not all plants can take 6/9 and need less. Also PPM isn't always the same as everyone else. Different companies pH meters either use a 500 conversion or a 700 conversion so keep that in mind. Sounds like you got the 500 conversion to me.

Yea I am fighting the broad mites. I have three strains running. Two of them have the dead and deformed leaves at the top which I am sure are mites.

The third is the one doing the curling. Since the leaves on those weren't dead and showing the same symptoms I assumed the mites didn't get them. They are just curling and were still doing so when I sprayed and killed a lot of the mites. Do you think the curling is from the mites too??? Could they just be showing different symptoms from the mite damage???

When you don't learn the breeding cycle of the specific mites that you have at the temperature that you are in, it is much harder to get rid of the populations. You also run the risk of creating a Super Mite that can form a resistance to your pesticides. By the way, I know that AVID and FLORIMITE is taken so lightly on this website, but it is not to be used on food crops. The label on the bottle clearly states:

"For control of leafminers and mites and suppression of aphids,
whiteflies, and thrips on ornamental plants"

Definition or ornamental plants:
Ornamental plants are plants that are grown for decorative purposes in gardens and landscape design projects, as houseplants, for cut flowers and specimen display.

This subject is taken very loosely on ICMAG and it is really is sad.

 

[MichaelVick]

Instead of the 6/9 formula, I use 1 part micro to 1.5 parts bloom. That is very similar to 6/9. You could go less also if you wanted to. Not all plants can take 6/9 and need less. Also PPM isn't always the same as everyone else. Different companies pH meters either use a 500 conversion or a 700 conversion so keep that in mind. Sounds like you got the 500 conversion to me.


When you don't learn the breeding cycle of the specific mites that you have at the temperature that you are in, it is much harder to get rid of the populations. You also run the risk of creating a Super Mite that can form a resistance to your pesticides. By the way, I know that AVID and FLORIMITE is taken so lightly on this website, but it is not to be used on food crops. The label on the bottle clearly states:

"For control of leafminers and mites and suppression of aphids,
whiteflies, and thrips on ornamental plants"

Definition or ornamental plants:
Ornamental plants are plants that are grown for decorative purposes in gardens and landscape design projects, as houseplants, for cut flowers and specimen display.

This subject is taken very loosely on ICMAG and it is really is sad.

So if you use 1 part micro/1.5 part bloom then how strong do you mix it? Do you keep the ppm the same throughout the entire flowering period? What ppm level do you find works best for most strains?

You are correct. My meter measures ppm using the .5 scale (also called NaCl). Please clarify which scale you use...

Thanks again for the help

 

[MichaelVick]

So if you use 1 part micro/1.5 part bloom then how strong do you mix it? Do you keep the ppm the same throughout the entire flowering period? What ppm level do you find works best for most strains?

You are correct. My meter measures ppm using the .5 scale (also called NaCl). Please clarify which scale you use...

Thanks again for the help

Never mind Snype. I just read your Chemdog Double Diesel grow log. Sounds like that strain liked 700-800ppm...

Do you have any advice regarding the broad mites? I really hate to use the Avid but the problem went unchecked for awhile so I needed to kill a lot of them. I stopped spraying and bombing 30 days before harvest but then they came back. I am just letting this crop finish but I plan to kill those bastards before they get at my next cycle. Do you have any experience with them?

Thanks again

 

[Snype]

Never mind Snype. I just read your Chemdog Double Diesel grow log. Sounds like that strain liked 700-800ppm...

Do you have any advice regarding the broad mites? I really hate to use the Avid but the problem went unchecked for awhile so I needed to kill a lot of them. I stopped spraying and bombing 30 days before harvest but then they came back. I am just letting this crop finish but I plan to kill those bastards before they get at my next cycle. Do you have any experience with them?

Thanks again

Sorry for the late response Michael. I have too many open threads at the moment. As you saw in my "Chemdog Double Diesel in 1 day" Thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=267178

"Feeding
Variety of strains requires different amounts of nutrient levels. This is why you wouldn’t want to grow multiple types of strains in the same system at the same time. If you have some heavy feeding strains mixed with underfeeding strains, it would be impossible to meet the needs of both types at once. For this purpose, it is always best to have all your plants in each system from the same mom in clone form. Of course you can grow similar feeding strains together but you would not maximize the yield of the grow and this is about maximizing your grow.

Overfeeding can cause lack of flavor in your final product and usually does. I will explain how to learn what your plants want by using your EC/TDS/PPM meter. Having one of these meters is a necessity when growing hydroponically and if you don’t have one you are flying blind. Always make sure that your meter is calibrated and that you check re-calibrate the meter every 2 weeks and when you see potential problems going on. Most grow shop meters are made with cheap components and are not lab grade so reading can be off frequently throughout your grow.

I believe in growing in sterile growing systems at all times. This doesn’t mean that growers who do use live nutrients or suppliments are wrong but this isn’t what this manual is about. Things can go wrong real fast in hydroponics and potentially kill your whole crop within days. Because of this I use refined nutrients and the brand that I like to use is General Hydroponic Flora Series. I enjoy the results that I get with this product but I mainly use it because I can keep my pH more stable with it compared to some other brands. Whatever brand you choose you will notice how the pH acts and if it swings too much you can try another brand and see what works for you. When I use GH Flora, I only use the Micro and the Bloom. The Micro has all the nitrogen that you need in your grow. In my grows it doesn’t matter if I’m in Veg or Flower, I use the Flora series in the exact same rates but if you choose to use another brand then you will have to experiment until you find the right rates that work for you. The rates that I use for GH flora series is 1 part micro to 1.5 parts bloom. You will first have to test all your clones in the same system to see how these plants eat so you can maximize the yield without burning them and ruining your flavor. The way that I do this with my nutrients is once I have roots, I start with a low PPM around 300. I keep data and write down what the PPM is every day once I top off the rez to the same point that it was when I first put the nutes in when it was 300. What I want to see is the PPM come down but not real fast. If your meter is reading 240 in 3 days then I would raise the solution to 360 and continue to record this data. I know that I am where I want to be when the meter is only going down 010 ppm per day. I like to look over a 3 day period cause it is hard to see 10-20 PPm per day as opposed to 60 ppm over a 3 day period. If the PPM is not going down then you are too high so when you raise it you don’t want to go too high or you’ll have to change out your system and nute at a lower level. As your plants are growing, you are recording the data that you get and when it reaches the levels of 10-20ppm of a decrees per day, then you know how much to use on your future grows with that pheno.

Throughout the years I’ve learned to keep it as simple as possible and don’t be fooled by variety of high priced snake oils that the grow shop has to offer. Cannabis doesn’t require as much as most growers think and a lot of new growers and even people who have years of growing experience make the mistake of following the directions on nutrient bottles. This can fry your plants."

My conditions won't be the same as your conditions so you will have to do testing at the rates of 1 part Micro and 1.5 parts Bloom. I have 55" plants under 1000's and you may have different size plants in different conditions.

As far as Broad Mites, I have never had experience with Broad Mites in my 20+ years of growing. Because of this it wouldn't be right for me to give you hearsay advise on the subject. I would advise you to go to the Cannabis Infirmary and read the Broad Mite threads and try to look for information from potential experts on the subject. Good Luck!

 

[MichaelVick]

Thanks for the advice Snype. I did already read the part from your thread and that makes sense. I will follow your advice on the feeding and read more on the Broad Mites.

I found a broad mite thread on here that is 57 pages long but haven't read it all yet. A lot of people on it of course have different opinions and approaches so I really need to digest it all and make my own decisions.

Much thanks for sharing all your knowledge with everyone here. Peace and respect to you. May all your harvests be bountiful