Noobin up a PPK

[village green]

For somebody who advertises their problems so much you have some damn fine looking plants.

 

[420ish]

gonna start my first ppk run soon !got my card and a plan!waiting for roots.starting the build this week

 

[disciple]

 

[disciple]

 

[Big John]

Dave you got some serious roots going on in there man! The plants look great, doesn't appear to be affecting them at all.

I had some flooding issues where one of my lower buckets was filling up with water draining from the tailpipes too fast for it to drain out of the 3/4" returns, and overflowing. I solved it by lowering the air gap, which was a little high, and shimming the bucket that was overflowing, since the floor isn't totally level it had a higher water level than the others.

Sounds like that is a different type of flooding than what you are experiencing. If it's flooding out of the top of the medium container multiple tailpieces will help, or just dialing in your feeding time.

If you decide to go multi tailpiece, it really isn't too bad to space, just make a jig out of cardboard and you can easily place the holes in the same spot each time, for the tub lids or the medium containers.

If it's just the roots clogging it up completely another thing you could think about is some spin-out on the inside of the container or just the tailpiece. It's a copper based paint that is used to treat pots to prevent plants from getting rootbound. Catman just posted in d9s thread today that he had used it and had great root mass.

edit: I got a pm saying it would be a bad idea to lose rooting space, and I imagine they were right. You could try out a little spin-out on just one tailpiece if that's the source of the clog though, might be worth a shot.

Good luck!

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

lots of good stuff here.

ok so the "old" style of PPK you refer to (that D9 ran w/single tail pipe) was not being flooded... those units were (and still are) fed with 1/4 line or maybe a bit larger.... but the key is they weren't doing the volume per irrigation event that is now happening.

while im feeding with 13mm hose (1/4"?) the actual volume of water is very low as the pumps are small. I use the feed rings to both disperse the water and airate it. Im currently running 5 minutes a feed event, that can be dropped easily tho.

personally I'd run individual buckets under each of your PPK's in your cabinet... If you follow D9's advice you won't need lids because the (3) tail pipes will keep the top unit in place. and then you'll have much less of a drainage problem (no drainage problem) but hey....

i just dont have the room for seperate buckets in the veg chamber. there isnt enough real estate on the floor. I could do it in the flower chamber easily enough tho, but the system has to work in all rooms.

gotta say those plants look very nice. full, lush, healthy. Sick ass roots too man...

thx

either forget trying to saturation pulse (flood) and just inject little amounts regularly (say the volume of your media divided by 4) or put in 3 tail pipes and do it right.

i was doing that (sat pulses : watering 1 minute on and 8 minutes off) and thats what D9 said was causing my origional blocks. Im hoping the new batch that have only had the 1 feed event every 2 hours are happy.

if you're hell bent on totes for the bottoms... you can always get a big roll of Thermolam Plus (non-fusible) from your local fabric shop and drill 3 7/16" holes in a circle around your existing tail pipe. when you pour the media in, hold the wicks up a bit so they extend up and laterally thru the media and then hang down say 1.5' below the bottom of your top container into the solution. this'll give you more drainage and better wicking (not that you need it)

really not keen on that idea.

is there a chance there's not enough room in that pipe you're using as a lower "bucket" so when that huge volume of fluid hits it it backs up b/c it's not transferring back to your pump chamber fast enough?

i got rid of those ages ago, and its definately flooding out of the top chamber.

also, the GH pH drop test kit is pretty cheap and an awesome idea when first dialing in a recirculating setup like this.

i will look into that.

too much heavy duty light early can also make clones look like that... the leaves drop down to say f*&$ you to the light... and after a while you'll get yellowing.

thats a possibility

Dave you got some serious roots going on in there man! The plants look great, doesn't appear to be affecting them at all.

thanks man, and im lucky that i can check on them every night atm.

I had some flooding issues where one of my lower buckets was filling up with water draining from the tailpipes too fast for it to drain out of the 3/4" returns, and overflowing. I solved it by lowering the air gap, which was a little high, and shimming the bucket that was overflowing, since the floor isn't totally level it had a higher water level than the others.

all my floods are coming out of the top bucket due to tailpipe blockages so far.

If you decide to go multi tailpiece, it really isn't too bad to space, just make a jig out of cardboard and you can easily place the holes in the same spot each time, for the tub lids or the medium containers.

that is another posibility. i would still rather go with 1 wider tailpipe.

If it's just the roots clogging it up completely another thing you could think about is some spin-out on the inside of the container or just the tailpiece. It's a copper based paint that is used to treat pots to prevent plants from getting rootbound. Catman just posted in d9s thread today that he had used it and had great root mass.

spin out just in the tailpipe would be a winner idea actually.

 

[high life 45]

FWIW I would 100% put more tailpieces in.

After a year of ppking, the first run I had with 100% no clogging was with 3 tailpieces and having the float control box properly dialed. Yeilds seem to have gone up as well.

hth

 

[farmari]

With just one wick maybe it's best to go with a wave pulse and even some holes in the plant container if necessary.
Good having EC lower nearer to 1, when having low humidity. I used to not account for a previously very high vapor pressure deficit in my grows (high temps low humidity) and it seemed a mistake in terms of smoke quality and seemingly excessive nutrient uptake. When Heath was doing EC around 1.2 I think his setups had relatively moderate temps and humidity compared to some grows (also outdoor level Co2... higher Co2 means higher water use efficiency which might mean the EC should be higher I think D9 mentioned recently? I dont know, I'm really tired)

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

multiple tailpieces just isnt going to happen for complex reasons of space and portability.

i was doing pulse feeding and apparently thats what caused the first blockages. The roots followed the constant water flow down the tailpipe and didnt spread out through the perlite. Since i moved to feeding once per 2 hours the rootzone has exploded. Im hoping the problems are limited to the first 2 plants due to the old feeding schedule.

And im looking for wider tailpieces in the meantime.

 

[forkup]

Is it the roots themselves that are plugging your drain or is it fine particles washing down to plug it?

How big of a pipe do you want to go to? Is 4" too big? http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/PLASTIC-SUPPLY-Flange-6UXT6

Remember you're trying to limit the volume of media that sits in the PWT.

 

[farmari]

I'm at a pulse feed 4 times a day and it's going well. Have you tried reducing the air gap? The air gap might be too much, making the moisture content of the container uneven because it's not wicking up enough but just relying on the pulse feed. If the roots only can grow the bottom inch of the container and not up they must grow down. Go for a day without using the pump, checking them every so often. If they wilt then the water level is too low.

Was having slight floods on +3 minute feeds as the lower PPK bucket couldn't drain back to the res fast enough and would overflow. Am using 1/2" tubing for drains... 3/4" or greater I'd much prefer at this point.

Though really I don't know why you're having all this bad luck, but Dave it loooks like things are coming along well.

 

[DamnUglyDogE]

Solid advice on the Multi tail piece question..
(for me)
Makes sense to use the Muti TP option in this style set up...

Thanks to those that shared... Solid...

Of course I'm not one ta be calling
for a single TP per pot
as I have 2 Pots
with 8 Tail pieces each...



​

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

the pot that flooded twice so far flooded again last night ... typical.
I moved the feeding to 3 minutes per 2 hours instead of 5, but a block will still drown plants as well as flood pots, this i know.
i KNOW the wicking is working because i was feeding for 1 minute every 2 hours at a drip rate. there is no way the plant could survive on that without wicking.
at the moment the tailpipe is 4cm wide ID which is just over 1.5 inches ... its just too small.

i guess i could use something like that with some silicone of some sort. Aquarium silicone would have to be the go.

 

[disciple]

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

hey have you pulled the (one of the) plugged plants out and hung it over a sink or bathtub and then filled it manually and watched to see what happens??? does it drain? do you see solution coming out of the tail pipe? how long does it take?

this has me kind of puzzled because the solution should find it's way out eventually.... and when it does you should be able to irrigate again without overflow (even with a single tail pipe)

(if the wicking is working.... and water is being drawn up... well, water will also be drawn down....)

when you watch a pump-fired irrigation event happen (like where it just does it's thing on automatic) what do you see? when you come back in (2) hours and watch the next irrigation event, what happens?

i will do that tonight some time and give you a real rundown rather than just making it up right now.

in the meantime i got some 80mm tailpieces to replace the 40mm ones.

twice as wide diameter means means much higher area of flow (P*20*20=1257) => (P*40*40=5028). Nearly 5 times more room.

Because there are already holes in the buckets (and i dont have a large enough hole saw) i had to enlarge the holes with a jigsaw which ripped the bucket apart and caused cracks everywhere.

The first 2 i glued with araldite and it wasnt thick enough to hold water so i am going to have to redo with silicone or co-polymer or something tomorrow.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

ok further information :

tips are just starting to burn a little.
PH 6.8, EC 1.7 in the control res. something more needs to be done here.

im watering for 3 minutes per 2 hours and it no longer floods.
watching it work the trickle starts and is hardly visible, no visual signs of flooding at all.
so the 3 min time is a short term fix.

I measured the amount I water in 1 minute and its exactly 4 litres, 2 per plant.
So each plant was getting 10 litres per feed event and now is getting 6.

I guess it wouldn't take much of a slowdown in draining to cause problems as the pot is 12 litres in itself, and with all the roots and perlite already in there 10 litres added over 5 minutes is quite a bit.

still, fat tailpipes here we come!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey have you pulled the (one of the) plugged plants out and hung it over a sink or bathtub and then filled it manually and watched to see what happens??? does it drain? do you see solution coming out of the tail pipe? how long does it take?

this has me kind of puzzled because the solution should find it's way out eventually.... and when it does you should be able to irrigate again without overflow (even with a single tail pipe)

(if the wicking is working.... and water is being drawn up... well, water will also be drawn down....)

when you watch a pump-fired irrigation event happen (like where it just does it's thing on automatic) what do you see? when you come back in (2) hours and watch the next irrigation event, what happens?

i think what has happened is dave is watering way too much way too often and the roots are following the "wet" pathway.

when you water in a more intermittent fashion the water disperses better and creates more equal conditions throughout the root zone for a longer period of time.

this in turn encourages lateral "air" type root growth. directing growth away from the tailpieces.

 

[delta9nxs]

i will do that tonight some time and give you a real rundown rather than just making it up right now.

in the meantime i got some 80mm tailpieces to replace the 40mm ones.

View Image

twice as wide diameter means means much higher area of flow (P*20*20=1257) => (P*40*40=5028). Nearly 5 times more room.

View Image

Because there are already holes in the buckets (and i dont have a large enough hole saw) i had to enlarge the holes with a jigsaw which ripped the bucket apart and caused cracks everywhere.

The first 2 i glued with araldite and it wasnt thick enough to hold water so i am going to have to redo with silicone or co-polymer or something tomorrow.

View Image

i like the way you are going with this. i did the math on the 80 mm tube and it will be slightly over 7 sq inches compared to 3 1.5" tailpieces at 1.76 sq in ea or 5.28 together.

but, you still should not attempt a saturation pulse with perlite.

you are watering too much too often causing channeling to occur.

a wave pulse is about volume per pulse not TIME! you really need to devise a way of delivering the water in measured amounts on a regular basis.

how much medium are you using? how deep is it in your container.

when i ran coco or perlite i used a wave pulse. i was experimenting a lot but at one point in a 3.5 gal bucket i was only delivering 4oz's every 15 minutes.

sending these small "waves" through the medium. keeping gases and nutrients refreshed and still providing mass availability of water.

this is how you need to operate until you can find a better medium.

but back to that 80 mm tube i've never seen those flanges before. i don't think they are sold here.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

i think what has happened is dave is watering way too much way too often and the roots are following the "wet" pathway.

when you water in a more intermittent fashion the water disperses better and creates more equal conditions throughout the root zone for a longer period of time.

this in turn encourages lateral "air" type root growth. directing growth away from the tailpieces.

That is my understanding too. In the second batch that only get watered once every 2 hours I haven't seen any sign of blockage ... yet

i like the way you are going with this. i did the math on the 80 mm tube and it will be slightly over 7 sq inches compared to 3 1.5" tailpieces at 1.76 sq in ea or 5.28 together.

I think im metric but yeah its ALOT bigger.

but, you still should not attempt a saturation pulse with perlite.

you are watering too much too often causing channeling to occur.

a wave pulse is about volume per pulse not TIME! you really need to devise a way of delivering the water in measured amounts on a regular basis.

I have to work with what I have available. The only cycle timer I could find has a max of 8 minutes off time, and watering every 8 minutes is what caused a lot of my problems at the start. Now I have digital timers with a min 1 minute time. That 1 minute means a min of 2 litres of water at any feeding event. Without blocked roots its not flooding or lifting the perlite with a 5 min water event, but obviously it does when theres blockages.

how much medium are you using? how deep is it in your container.

its pretty full in the container, I would say 10 litres of perlite. Its pretty hard to measure exactally at this point.

when i ran coco or perlite i used a wave pulse. i was experimenting a lot but at one point in a 3.5 gal bucket i was only delivering 4oz's every 15 minutes.

sending these small "waves" through the medium. keeping gases and nutrients refreshed and still providing mass availability of water.

this is how you need to operate until you can find a better medium.

easier said than done, I have to work with what I have available. Apart from the tail blocking it is seeming to be a very nice system, growth is lovely.

but back to that 80 mm tube i've never seen those flanges before. i don't think they are sold here.

woot something I have that you don't !
they are collar flanges, they slide over the pipe. They are mainly used for decoration , they slide down the pipe and sit on the floor, covering the messy concrete edges of the hole that the pipe goes thru. Lots of glue is needed to make them work they way I want.

Wish I had access to the goop that you talk about, that would be perfect for the job.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

ok its done

ok its done

its done, pots and control res done for one pair of plants

plants transplanted again

and i only broke off 1 small bud

Still i KNOW its not good to keep moving transplanting and renetting the plants. And i know the rootballs arent sitting flush on the bottom of the pot, they are sitting up high.

The theory is that its all about dialing and hooning (DHF style) and the next wave wont have the same problems.

Ill do the veg plants tomorrow and then that should be the last of the transplanting

They arent bad for plants that vegged for 4 weeks and so far flowered for 2.5 weeks. As someone earlier said, nice plants for so many problems !