is this how you breed quality genetics?

[Weird]

there is a thread called... "the determinator of sex", where I try to postulate and explain that very possibility, that herm traits can be brought forth by genetic conditions, epigenetic triggers and arise from random mutations as well ...

but I eventually gave up trying after all the off topic, out of context logic and circular arguments given by people with admittedly no knowledge on the subject

maybe your comments weren't finite enough?

















sorry couldn't resist

 

[fadetoclear]

the main reason these discussions turn into arguments

i mean, excuse the french but in context, i didn't feel i was being argumentative.

there is a high chance that the "stories" behind c99 and chem are completely fabricated meaning that instead of being a found bagseed (and indicating it had been stress reversed) the hermaphroditism is a result of sloppy breeding instead.

apologies if i came off as being facetious. i only referenced those two lines because they are both examples of lines that supposedly came from stress induced hermies and the subsequent lines produced mostly intersexed progeny.

 

[Infinitesimal]

maybe your comments weren't finite enough?



sorry couldn't resist

lol, but where is the line between the finite and the infinite... it can never be finite enough! there are always more and more finite details it never ends deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.

what is Pi? 3.14, 3.141, 3.1415, 3.14159, 3.141592, 3.1415926 etc. etc. each additional decimal place drastically changes the outcome of an equation especially the larger the scale of the problem.

for instance for any "finite" number you give I can give you an infinite amount of infinities within that number, which would mean you would never be able to count from one real number... to the next real number in that decimal place without skipping an infinite amount of real numbers in an infinite amount of decimal places... I am infinitesimal!



WOW, now that was off topic

disregard and continue... haha

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

oh yeah and I forgot . . .

edited *** **** * ****

that is all

 

[xmobotx]

i mean, excuse the french but in context, i didn't feel i was being argumentative.

there is a high chance that the "stories" behind c99 and chem are completely fabricated meaning that instead of being a found bagseed (and indicating it had been stress reversed) the hermaphroditism is a result of sloppy breeding instead.

apologies if i came off as being facetious. i only referenced those two lines because they are both examples of lines that supposedly came from stress induced hermies and the subsequent lines produced mostly intersexed progeny.

sorry ~i am agreeing w/ you where i point out the 'marketing' detail is where i attempt to simply add that while i agree i also feel there is a lot of misunderstanding perpetuated in the name of mystifying genetics and canna breeding

maybe some folks buy in to the myths and maybe some of the 'arguers' are knowingly perpetuating the myths

infinitesimal of course i remember those considerations

 

[Infinitesimal]

infinitesimal of course i remember those considerations

oh yeah, you were a part of that discussion... that's right

 

[xmobotx]

lol; i was a "people with admittedly no knowledge on the subject"

 

[imnotcrazy]

maybe your comments weren't finite enough?



sorry couldn't resist

Unbroken Douche......








Sorry my brother Weird , I couldn't resist that one lol

 

[Infinitesimal]

lol; i was a "people with admittedly no knowledge on the subject"

haha, you weren't one of the people I was referring to though, you know your stuff. it was the guys who didn't know any details about cannabis that were frustrating to reach... because even if my epigenetics argument was sound they didn't understand how it would apply since they don't have a sound understanding of how the plant reacts and why.

 

[xmobotx]

i know enough to know that the epigenetics factor has unknowns

we have some not so relevant studies to show how certain things are affected in other plants but; blue kernels of corn basically gives us an example of how a trait may be influenced

maybe a perspective like 'it's a wild card' can be gathered from that until we figure what specific things can be used {though we already know colloidal silver and STS}

i guess if we keep wondering why, we keep figuring things out

 

[Infinitesimal]

yeah I'm not saying that I know what specific gene or which mode of action creates the change (histone modification, methylation etc. etc.) but I'm pretty confident that the sex of the plants and the propensity for the herm trait are controlled by the X and Y chromosomes plus any environmental factors that lead to epigenetic changes in gene function...

and the big thing with that thread was the idea that a seeds germination environment can lead to a changes in sex, which I don't think temp and humidity,*especially at the time of germination, is going to have any effect on the gene function of the sex chromosomes.

yes constantly ask why.. about everything.

 

[Weird]

some of the references i posted mentioned that pollen was observed to display epigentic effect and influences

 

[xmobotx]

there aint nothing against those citations weird & TBH i'm kinda confused @ the pollen thing

if i m complain'n about anything it's that we dont have relevant data to cite & if i dig on someone ref'n irrelevant data; it's when they are trying to support a long dis-proved point the marketing BS likes to reinforce ~i.e. 'hermis are bad'

 

[Tonygreen]

The way its lookin if we did understand all about epigenetic markers and possible outcomes not everyone would understand how to fix the traits or work it to benefit us anyway.

Im not sure if thats what TH means when he says genetics is everything but thats what im getting in my mind atm.

If you dont understand AA Aa aa, or ways to genotype test plants to determine dominance how can you for example select the right male to back cross to the mother (is she homozygous for the trait to begin with?) to fix a specific trait? Without genotype testing it seems to me that a random back cross is just a luck of the draw thing to do, something to hope for that might not work.

Fuck some people in here seem to think a back cross or two will leave you with your mother plant reproduced... Maybe for some traits, if you can pick the right male... A homozygous male and a heterozygous male can appear to be very similar in a f1 but will yield you very different results in breeding...

If we cant come to a consensus on that how the hell can we discuss epigenetic markers in any meaningful way?

If we are going that route I think an understanding epistasis and polygenic inheritance in cannabis would be a better place to dig in then epigenetic markers... Knowledge of how that works would probably yield more immediate and reproducible results that from my understanding can vary wildly from embryo to embryo regarding "epigenetic markers".

 

[Weird]

while those articles cite using it for a potential benefit how many breeders here are going to use gene market tech to breed?

I was bringing up epigentics as a potential cause of some of the hermie nightmares people have experienced

plants are being stressed into producing pollen (environmental inputs) and then the pollen is damaged by the environment and effected on a epigenetic level, if the plants are selfed in the first place and there is less genetic diversity, damaging what genetic material that is present would cause greater calamity or it stands to reason

not to say selfing itself is damaging the genes but that OTHER environmental stresses (or combination) could well be

this is were breeder growing skill could also be articulating into better or worse lines, healthy plants at least show no visual signs of environmental distress or damage which would lead one to believe it did not happen on a cellular level either

the dude rocking really healthy plants might be insuring against what is occurring on levels we cant see with the human eye

 

[Infinitesimal]

The way its lookin if we did understand all about epigenetic markers and possible outcomes not everyone would understand how to fix the traits or work it to benefit us anyway.

Im not sure if thats what TH means when he says genetics is everything but thats what im getting in my mind atm.

If you dont understand AA Aa aa, or ways to genotype test plants to determine dominance how can you for example select the right male to back cross to the mother (is she homozygous for the trait to begin with?) to fix a specific trait? Without genotype testing it seems to me that a random back cross is just a luck of the draw thing to do, something to hope for that might not work.

Fuck some people in here seem to think a back cross or two will leave you with your mother plant reproduced... Maybe for some traits, if you can pick the right male... A homozygous male and a heterozygous male can appear to be very similar in a f1 but will yield you very different results in breeding...

If we cant come to a consensus on that how the hell can we discuss epigenetic markers in any meaningful way?

If we are going that route I think an understanding epistasis and polygenic inheritance in cannabis would be a better place to dig in then epigenetic markers... Knowledge of how that works would probably yield more immediate and reproducible results that from my understanding can vary wildly from embryo to embryo regarding "epigenetic markers".

you're right on about peoples misconceptions on Bx'ing

yes, and even if one is successful at reproducing multiple traits (through backcrossing), there are increased chances of producing recessive deleterious (negative) traits that were not expressed in the original clone mother... because they are recessive and need to be homozygous for expression.

yeah I was mostly saying (like weird) that I believe the expression of herm traits are (mostly, not all cases) the result of the environments effect on the epigenome causing a change in the function of the genes located on the X and Y chromosomes.

and I agree that the genes rule everything as the genetic info has to be there originally for the epigenetic triggers to activate or silence any given trait...

and, if by "If we cant come to a consensus on that how the hell can we discuss epigenetic markers in any meaningful way?" you mean, how are we going to use epigenetics in a controlled laboratory environment where we intentionally perform various techniques to silence or activate specific genes to gain a specific response?
then I agree, we have no clue and would be like taking shots in the dark... plus I don't think it would serve much of a purpose because its not like people are going to be then exposing the progeny to the types of lab techniques used to change the gene expression thereby leaving it effectively useless as far as the breeder and the grower are concerned... though it maybe useful in mapping the pathways in which the specific genes are modified by which specific markers, which when fully mapped may prove useful... but who really knows.. Im not gonna be getting into any gene modifying.

BUT...

Genotype + Environment = Phenotype, so, the environments role on the expression of the phenotype is an epigenetic one... in this way, an understanding of how we can control and create a stable environment for our breeding projects generation after generation can effect the phenotypes that our plants express thereby effecting our selection on the genes we recombine... so its still boils down to the genes but understanding how to tease out certain expressions through environment allows us to use epigenetics to create a bias for the genes we desire in our progeny...

that's what I was getting at with these posts below...

the following messages have been TH approved ​

PWF,

if I may... try and relate if and how epigenetic are and are not relevant.

the genes are fixed, their expression can be triggered or silenced by chemical tags that are effected by the environment... BUT... this does not change the genes or how they are passed on...



THIS, what I am about to explain, is how environment and subsequently epigenetic changes can effect your breeding program...

lets say you have 26 female plants from one single strain labeled A-Z... and you have 5 different environments (each room numbered 1-5) varying in medium, nutrient regimen, light spectrum, temperature, humidity.. etc. etc.



into each of the five rooms goes a cutting of each plant A-Z numbered according to their rooms respectively... so there is A1, B1 etc. etc. A2, B2 etc. etc. A3, B3 etc. etc. and so on... so that there is a copy of each of the plants A-Z in each environment...

OK, now, one may observe that plant A1, A2, A4, and A5 produce the desirable phenotype and turns out to be homozygous for those traits "true breeding"... but A3 (same genetics, still true breeding/homozygous, as A1,A2,A4,A5) doesn't express the desired traits because the environment isn't conducive to the genotype for the desired phenotypic expression (this is the epigenome) in this room, room number 3, plant P (P3) may express most of the desirable traits but is not homozygous for those traits.

as a result... if you (for arguments sake, or anyone) were growing these plants in room #3, to make your breeding selections, the epigenetic differences may cause you to mistakenly select plant P the heterozygous individual over plant A the homozygous individual for your breeding projects... again because the homozygous plant A's genes are silenced in the environment that favors the P phenotype.


So, once the individual has been determined to posses the correct genes... the role the environment plays becomes irrelevant as it is going to pass on the same genes regardless (weather reversed or not, but the gene frequency goes up 2x faster with selfing as the desirable genes are received from both mother and father instead of just the mother) ... only the progeny will care, and only if weather or not the environment they grow up in is conducive to desirable phenotype (this is why environmental stability from generation to generation is important)


now, conversely... epigenetics can be used to ones advantage also when making selections... say you are breeding with a Indica leaning hybrid, but wish to breed the Sativa heavy traits... you can change the environment to better mimic the natural environment of equatorial Sativas... thereby being less suitable for Indicas and more conducive to the Sativa gene expressions... and by culling the more Indica expressions we are creating a bias for the Sativa genes... the more desirable Sativa phenotypes will reach their full potential, compared to the same plants grown in an Indica favorable environment... intern they are more easily identified and when bred can increase the frequency of the Sativa traits

so the environment may effect your selection... but doesn't directly effect the progeny of a selected individual.

^^ the environment effects the epigenome which combined with the genome creates the phenotypic expression... and we need to see the phenotypic expressions possible from a population and figure out the genotype of the most desirable individuals in order to make the best informed decision in order to reach our breeding objective, what ever that may be... but once the desirable genotype has been selected then the effects of the environment on the expression of the genes is null and void.

changing the environment (which can effect the epigenome and can change the phenotype) only has an effect if it in turn changes the selection...

for example... take some hindu kush seeds, clone them, grow one copy of each clone in northern california and grow the other copy in the peruvian rain forrest... most of the clones in california will express Indica propensity.. stay shorter get bushier and produce denser buds with a low occurrence of mold.

conversely the ones grown in the rain forest will have to adapt towards a more Sativa expression, compete with surrounding vegetation for sunlight making it grow taller and less bushy, do to the humidity the buds will grow less dense and those that don't will be more susceptible to mold and mildew... also many of the male plants especially will auto flower at a low latitude thereby missing the pollination window...

as a result...

the individuals that end up mating to produce the next generation will be different in the two locations, as the environment will cause different phenotypes to excel in nor cal than will excel in the rain forest... so it is not the environments effects on the individual that matters as much as it is the environments effects on the population and how that ultimately effects the selection of mates...(darwin's old theory)

Interesting talk... We had a willie nelson cutting {the original} most of the growers who grew it, it would come out like the Vietnamese side{woody taste not the greatest/high, but great structure}
One of our green thumbed friends found that if he flowered a clone sooner then later the plant ended up leaning way heavy to the lemon side of things and the high and taste where spectacular compared to growing a big plant that has been around for some time. All kinds of trigger i guess, foods and thoughts....

great example... that is the difference between a Sativa photoperiod where the plant initiates flowering quickly and an Indica photoperiod where there is a long veg before the plant begins flowering... and yes this is an epigenetic trigger for expression...

BUT...

this is the point... you are talking about cultivation... and yes you can change the expression... but when you pollinate it, it passes on the same genotype regardless of how soon you forced flowering... triggering a different expression does not cause a different gene to be passed on to its progeny.

^^ and the only reason this doesn't effect the progeny is because he is talking about taking the same clone with the same genetic information and growing it two different environments and noticing the changes in phenotypic expression, but in this case the change in phenotype doesn't change the selection so it is of no consequence to the progeny since they will receive the same genes regardless of the epigenetic changes experienced by the mother plant...

 

[Weird]

lol TH approved? I didn't get the same endorsement when I mentioned G+E=P

 

[Infinitesimal]

lol TH approved? I didn't get the same endorsement when I mentioned G+E=P

lol, that was intended for the quotes of myself I reposted... where I was explaining to PWF what Tom was trying to convey to him... which Tom then voted helpful... and thus my joking statement, well half joking I wanted to makes sure people realized I wasnt just repeating some nonsense for no reason.

I am pretty sure I have read Tom himself mention G+E=P, so maybe it was some other part of your argument he was disagreeing with and you mis perceived his intended meaning... I know that it happens a lot on forums without a sense of someones tone or facial expressions.

but I don't think he disputes that environment effects phenotype expression....

just that if you are limited in your population size you are bottlenecking your possibilities of finding the right genotype (a "true breeding" one) among the heterozygous genotypes that express the same phenotype given your environment...

and that line breeding will produce more homozygous traits... (which is the goal of a breeder, to find true breeding parent stock to make their seeds with so there is minimal variation found among the selected traits in the progeny... that they sell to the customers)... exponentially faster than 1-1 full sibling crosses especially when only popping 10-20 seeds of any given family line.

but thats just from my interpretation, my perception of reality could be way off, how would I know?

"sheeshaw!"

Rusty Shackleford is Infinitesmal

 

[Weird]

it was in regards breeding in target(ed) environment and its effect on selection rations and frequency of expression

 

[Infinitesimal]

are you sure his objection was with...

A. the idea of breeding in a specific environment more conducive to a desirable phenotypic expression...

and was not instead with...

B. the idea that you (or anyone), regardless of how tight your environment is, can combine the right genotypes that are homozygous for the myriad of different gene pairs that make up what most would consider a single trait (like yield or resin or effects etc.etc. which each, respectively, are actually made up of several traits collectively) without either;

1. using large enough populations, implementing proven breeding methods and progeny testing to determine an individuals genetic value i.e. is it homozygous for the selected traits...

2. Starting with worked strains already fairly homogenous for homozygous individuals... or...

3. getting "slip, and fall into super model pussy" lucky...?

the latter, objection B... options 1-3, is what I have been taking from his posts...

you can't forgo one for the other... and say you are not going to worry about proven methods because your environment is so good, nor can you use all the methods and have a shitty non stable environment... and expect to have regular consistency.