What's Up?

[dddaver]

So is Governor Quinn going to sign that shit or what? I think it has been on his desk for awhile. I think I read it was pretty restrictive anyway. Maybe he's thinking "pocket-veto".

 

[TokerAce]

Sup, who knows if he will sign it or not. Doesn,t really matter if you crunch the numbers its a diaster waiting ti happen! 60 despensaries, 22 growers, and peeps get up to 2.5 oz every 2 weeks. With just 50k patients thats 250,00 oz each month. thats 11363 oz every grower has to produce each month. DEA will go nuts and raid everyone. I have a business man that wanted to get into it and his attornies ask how he felt about life in jail!

Ty

 

[Julian]

The businessman should stick to business .....and the attorneys were obviously not MMJ seasoned. (My dart thrown would say they were real estate or trust attorneys "Businessmen" rarely have criminal attorneys retained . Businessmen from non MMJ states typically do not have MMJ seasoned attorneys retained also .

HB 01 passed through final senate vote May 17th, (less than 30 days ago, inc, non business days) and, it is "restrictive" in many ways, it is reasonable in others, but it is legislation which ad's another medical state to the U.S, with the possibility of quite a few changes being made along the way, as has occurred in many states .

There are many things which are less than desirable contained, unfortunately, these mainly fall to the patients, which are in end, the reason for the implementation.

They will not , for the most part, affect cultivation, no dispensary operator(s)/operations.

It is also a "Pilot" program. There are many whom are quite optimistic it will pass through shortly, myself included.

I also do not agree (respectfully) with the above analysis of production requirements. There are far too many variables which will come into play for any projections to be made. (I do feel that many potential cultivation center candidates (many, not all) do not have a firm grasp on many aspects.

There is a operational gap also between the geographic assignment of the cultivation centers and potential dispensaries which I believe will cause a serious problem for the patient(s). (Limited number of dispensaries, not geographically assigned, vs. even lesser number of cultivation centers that are.

 

[ILL-IN-GROWER]

Hey there neighbors!

Julian, you mention changes being made along the way if passed.

Do you think there is a possibility of allowing personal production under the current program? If so, how would we go about it?? I'm not too optimistic the 22/60 plan will be able to provide sufficient medicine and would think this might be a stepping stone. Proving that the system is incapable of working the way it was designed could be grounds for an amendment, I would hope... Whether it's patients in rural areas that do not have the population to sustain a dispensary and therefore access medicine, or the inability to keep quality medicine in stock...

But I'm not too well versed in the law. Could patients bring a suit against the state lobbying for personal cultivation based on something like this?


Surely a seasoned MMJ attorney would be able to tell me more

 

[hamstring]

The Gov has his hands full with pension reform and getting re-elected. My 2 cents is he has his people running the numbers as we speak. Checking public opinion crossing T's and dotting i's. He's not going to rush this its a huge political challenge and this will make national news.

I dont have any educated response to the 22/60 but I would agree geographically speaking this is going to be a challenge. You have Chi town and the next biggest city is around 200K population.

So even if this passes the implementation for this will be messy to say the least. Getting local government to jump on board will not be easy in many of these smaller cities. It would make sense to me that the ones to jump on board first will most likely be the ones who are in financial trouble much like Chicago.

Have my fingers crossed.

 

[Julian]

Hey there neighbors!

Julian, you mention changes being made along the way if passed.

Do you think there is a possibility of allowing personal production under the current program? If so, how would we go about it?? I'm not too optimistic the 22/60 plan will be able to provide sufficient medicine and would think this might be a stepping stone. Proving that the system is incapable of working the way it was designed could be grounds for an amendment, I would hope... Whether it's patients in rural areas that do not have the population to sustain a dispensary and therefore access medicine, or the inability to keep quality medicine in stock...

But I'm not too well versed in the law. Could patients bring a suit against the state lobbying for personal cultivation based on something like this?

Surely a seasoned MMJ attorney would be able to tell me more

Well, to begin, my attorney comment(s) above were quite genuine. I think it irresponsible for a (most likely) attorney to comment and advise, specifically regarding an investment matter, beyond the scope of their expertise. There are endless ways to structure participation if an interest that would/will/can limit any individuals exposure. Their response is not one I personally would find acceptable. An acceptable response would be "This is not within my area of expertise, I would advise you seek counsel regarding this matter/these questions from someone who specializes in this/these specific areas", similar to what would be expected of an M.D. (To make a determination on something, instead of referring to a specialist to confirm". Personally? That statement would make me find another attorney, as I would then question what other matters are they commenting/advising upon that is also beyond their scope of expertise.

There are many possibilities, and touched on above is a practical concern: If Dispensary licenses are not/will not be limited/controlled the same as cultivation centers, then theoretically, where will that leave a patient 100 miles from the nearest dispensary?. New Mexico had issues with such matters. Mailing is prohibited. Delivery options becomes problematic/cost prohibitive. District 1 (Basically Cook) may very well find far, far, far in excess of 60 applications in itself, and then financially, will dispensaries in all other centers be able to sustain operations (financially).

There are many possibilities.

The Gov has his hands full with pension reform and getting re-elected. My 2 cents is he has his people running the numbers as we speak. Checking public opinion crossing T's and dotting i's. He's not going to rush this its a huge political challenge and this will make national news.

Agreed. Definitely.There are also groups voicing their protest (IL LE), and so on.

I dont have any educated response to the 22/60 but I would agree geographically speaking this is going to be a challenge. You have Chi town and the next biggest city is around 200K population.

I would not be surprised if majority of dispensaries end up in Chicago metro (Plainfield to the West, Gurnee to the North, Tinley to the South), which also leads to what is/will be the process if the first 60 approved applications fall in a certain location(s), as above. What is a patient to do when no dispensary within certain distance, as surely will, indeed, be the case. Can a dispensary in Peotone be maintained financially? What will a patient in Galena do if Rockford (2 hours?+/-) is the nearest dispensary, and so on....

Rockford?, probably. Springfield?. I'm sure. Carbondale? Most likely. And so on, but that leaves quite a bit of square miles unserved/inaccessible to many.

Operations(al) note: There may be solutions to such.

So even if this passes the implementation for this will be messy to say the least. Getting local government to jump on board will not be easy in many of these smaller cities. It would make sense to me that the ones to jump on board first will most likely be the ones who are in financial trouble much like Chicago.

Have my fingers crossed.

One area which is addressed, which could be a problem, and many are not aware of as of yet , which differs from other states, is, it is contained within the proposed, that banning either cultivation centers or dispensaries from a community is not allowed. (Example: Naperville or Oak Park cannot ban dispensaries from operation in that community, and so on, which may very well bring more issues, and, something people may not be aware has occurred in other states, as many in CO and CA, and other states know. HB 01 prohibits communities from banning MMJ facilities.

I have already done quite a bit of work (consulting) with individuals and groups which have, to start with, absolutely no familiarity with the history of the industry (as above), nor have read a single word of the proposed legislation. I do not think any are aware of this (municipalities which will not welcome, that bill prohibits them from banning facilities, which could be another challenge.)

Quite a bit is, of course, speculation, other than what bill contains.

 

[Benjamin Check]

Dispensaries in Chicago....I predict a RASH of robberies and a few deaths, then the people who opposed it will be saying "you said weed wasn't violent!" Rumors will be flying, "yo son, this bitch whose cousin gets weed from there says they be having like 50 pounds in that motherfucker yo. 50 pounds of kush, purp,....bruh all type of shit!" That is the exact conversation that will take place several times, damned near word for word.

 

[ILL-IN-GROWER]

Was doing a bit of reading and came across this quote from the trib... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...in-village-board-0610-20130613,0,426018.story


"As part of the bill, the state would license 22 growers and allow for as many as 60 distribution centers — one per each senate district.

Guenther said that, with two senate districts in Mundelein, it remains to be seen what the effect of medical marijuana will be in the village."


Now I don't remember coming across this in the bill, but it makes a bit of sense. Some of those districts are quite large though... Unfortunately it seems the discussions out there are more focused on potential abuse, the black market, road safety, and employer/business ramifications, as opposed to patient advocacy, accessibility, low cost, and quality control.....

 

[ILL-IN-GROWER]

I went back through the bill with our good old friend, ctrl f, and found no mention of assigning the dispensaries according to senate districts...

 

[Julian]

It is also not specified dispensaries as not-for/non profit formation, yet within the initial requirements, applicants experience in such to be spelled out.

I have heard the above (assignment of dispensary locations) quite a bit recently, and no, it is not contained within.

As always, the absurdity of commentaries (story above) never fails......("joints could end up sold on the street" in Mundelein...and, seriously, who gets almost 3 rolled per gram ...(As the very same region has it's share of Section 8 housing. Whats next, Highwood, Waukegan and North Chicago worried about a stray gram "making its way to the street"? ...As they meet to determine how cultivation facilities will affect the community ...(Not first choice of location for a District one potential application for Cultivation Center, I can safely say ...)

Always good for a laugh is accompanying stories....Teen sues United for failing to stop masturbator, man charged with having sex with pit bull at pound, and Marijuana "poisoning" on the rise with Colorado kids.....Yet the appearance of an stray joint is a cause for concern ....

 

[ILL-IN-GROWER]

I did the math too when they said 180+ joints/2.5 oz... Rolling some pinners over there in mundelein

 

[dickcorn]

Damn Julian where ya been? So which ones gonna be yours? Lol I hope this gets worked out to grow your own, I would probably move the mile across state line to have some medical defense. The size of a few of those districts is ludicrous too! Would the 60 dispenseris be split between them too? Or wherever they choose to open?

 

[Bababooey]

Sup, who knows if he will sign it or not. Doesn,t really matter if you crunch the numbers its a diaster waiting ti happen! 60 despensaries, 22 growers, and peeps get up to 2.5 oz every 2 weeks. With just 50k patients thats 250,00 oz each month. thats 11363 oz every grower has to produce each month. DEA will go nuts and raid everyone. I have a business man that wanted to get into it and his attornies ask how he felt about life in jail!

Ty

Well, to begin, my attorney comment(s) above were quite genuine. I think it irresponsible for a (most likely) attorney to comment and advise, specifically regarding an investment matter, beyond the scope of their expertise. There are endless ways to structure participation if an interest that would/will/can limit any individuals exposure. Their response is not one I personally would find acceptable. An acceptable response would be "This is not within my area of expertise, I would advise you seek counsel regarding this matter/these questions from someone who specializes in this/these specific areas", similar to what would be expected of an M.D. (To make a determination on something, instead of referring to a specialist to confirm". Personally? That statement would make me find another attorney, as I would then question what other matters are they commenting/advising upon that is also beyond their scope of expertise.

I don't think the attorney's advice went much beyond: still illegal federally, can do up to life if caught growing huge amounts, it's your ass if you want to risk it.
Which is true, and the reality that all the large-scale growers in Cali, Colo, etc live under. If the DEA comes knocking, they can rip all of your plants and take all of your equipment, and count yourself lucky if they decline to charge you later...
For those that are charged, from what I'm reading the vast majority end up pleading rather than risk a trial, and usually get something under 10 years, around 5 or so. Which quite obviously still sucks, but in comparison to what one could get if you lose a trial...

I think the 50K patients number is too high, IL's mmj bill is pretty restrictive as to authorized ailments. I would think it takes a year or two to reach that many patients...

 

[Julian]

Point taken, and, I agree on surface/in theory:
A "businessman" was mentioned who spoke to his attorney.

The above references the position(s) of growers.

The ways in which any given situation can be structured to not only limit the exposure, but benefit the former far surpass those of the latter

I can also say, quite comfortably, if this was a non criminal attorney in a non medical state...they are possibly even completely unaware as to the extent of MMJ in the U.S. The "average" person in some cases is even unaware MMJ exists in one state, let alone many, let alone the CO and Washington recreational, etc. (We are speaking of the average" person, not someone in this community in any way, shape, or form...even the casual smoker who may see a news story here and there. I cannot even begin to recall the number of such people I have encountered. (It was actually not long go I had such an exchange as described with an investor and his attorneys, hence my initial reaction and that which now follows . (That specific situation circled around a possible sale/lease-back from investor on a property. Nothing more than an investor acquiring a property and a contract sale to purchaser for extremely generous terms )

There is also the factor of different states, even regions within, and the different degree of law enforcement issues that vary from one to the next. In some cases quite significant, in others non existent. (Personally, New Mexico was always one of my greatest interests, for various reasons.)

Illinois, as far as cultivation operations, seems quite favorable for many several reasons.

There are also many factors which do/will come into play when trying to establish patient, and supply and demand estimates. (13MM state, 10MM Chicago metro alone. )

Regardless of what is, and is not favorable, and to whom.....the very act of such passing is something truly extraordinary, not to be downplayed .

I myself, and firm, in conjunction with others, have been doing an enormous amount of work, doubling daily, on many different aspects. (This does include quite a bit having to do with potential patients, those with no background or knowledge of M/MMJ, which is always rewarding

From an operations standpoint, I think all going to work out fairly well, and I think many things less than desirable will be worked out to be, in the end, a little more favorable to all. Cultivation Consulting and Operations my personal primary interest, but involved in the entire spectrum of services, and do care more than most know on the surface about the patient(s), and last several years, more and more daily, heavily into the medical research end of it all.

 

[hamstring]

I don't think the attorney's advice went much beyond: still illegal federally, can do up to life if caught growing huge amounts, it's your ass if you want to risk it.
Which is true, and the reality that all the large-scale growers in Cali, Colo, etc live under. If the DEA comes knocking, they can rip all of your plants and take all of your equipment, and count yourself lucky if they decline to charge you later...
For those that are charged, from what I'm reading the vast majority end up pleading rather than risk a trial, and usually get something under 10 years, around 5 or so. Which quite obviously still sucks, but in comparison to what one could get if you lose a trial...

I think the 50K patients number is too high, IL's mmj bill is pretty restrictive as to authorized ailments.

I would think it takes a year or two to reach that many patients...

Great discussion and I think you have a good point here.

I do think if this bill last more than the 4 yr pilot that much like the Cali scene you will have pro-MJ Dr's writing scripts for some of the hard to verify ailments. I'm not trying to muddy up the waters or make a mockery out of the Medical MJ scene but I do see this as the truth.
I cant see how they are going to chase down every application. Run a background check sure but go to the Dr and debrief him under the hot lights not so sure.

 

[Bababooey]

I think it will take a lot of educating to get your average MD to write mmj rec's; a lot of them believe that the mj based medicines like Marinol would suffice for cannabis-based relief, although actual mj is much less expensive than Marinol.

Still uncertain is how the US Attorneys in IL will handle mmj. Likely it will be sporadic and inconsistent enforcement, same as in other mmj states. Criminal enforcement by the feds may be sparked by sales to non-mmj patients, or ties to criminal gangs. Civil harassment in the form of letters to landlords, cease & desist letters, or difficulty when filing taxes may be employed when criminal enforcement isn't.

Although US attorneys, particularly in Chicago, make public corruption a priority, they also routinely go after gangs and drugs. I'm sure they'll be monitoring the mmj situation in IL closely, and Id be surprised if they didn't flex their muscle in some way...

 

[hamstring]

Where does the state go to get help incorporating the grow/dispensary? Its not like they can lean on some boiler plate that the feds have for help when putting this altogether. Is this a bunch of bureaucrats just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks?

How do you start something like this up? Who do you turn to pick the grow locations/ dispensaries? This isn't a simple business start-up you have to navigate through all the federal BS so you don't end up looking foolish or worse. This seems very different from all other med states structure.

It cant be easy for the state to make these choices. I may be way off base but the red tape to open one of the 22 grow locations or 60 dispensaries could take a year or more. If that's true then you are in the same position as IL is for concealed carry.

Because IL lawmakers have been dragging their feet on releasing the concealed carry details you see townships stating they are going to allow concealed carry to anyone with a FOID card. Their reasoning is they don't want to later get sued because they are suppressing someones rights.

DO you think, much like our own Julian who is trying to be on the leading edge of this, that lawmakers are already sitting down with wannabe applicants discussing how to make this happen?

If this goes through on Jan 2014 I cant see how they put this altogether before people begin to sue for legal rights to medicine. I keep going back to how screwed the implementation of concealed carry seems to be or at least from the outside looking in.

I pose all these question out of ignorance and the fact i would like to see how and where a person like myself fits into what I believe is a opportunity to those who can grasp the whole situation.

Knowledge is power!!

 

[Julian]

Where does the state go to get help incorporating the grow/dispensary? Its not like they can lean on some boiler plate that the feds have for help when putting this altogether. Is this a bunch of bureaucrats just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks?

All cultivation centers and dispensaries will be privately owned. It appears thus far that cultivation centers no specific requirements (C corp, S corp, LLC, sole proprietor, etc), but dispensary a hint in bill of non profit.

The bill originated just as it would/would have in any other state.

1.How do you start something like this up?
2.Who do you turn to pick the grow locations/ dispensaries?
3.This isn't a simple business start-up you have to navigate through all the federal BS so you don't end up looking foolish or worse.
4.This seems very different from all other med states structure.

4. No. Each and every state of course different set of rules, regs, guidelines. Each state lightly different in their requirements. IL just another med state with another set of specific requirements.
3. Philosophically, yes, it is, and, no, it's not
There are, thus far, proposed guidelines for the entire process, and, upon implementation, they will be further defined.
Illinois Department of Agriculture will issue Cultivation Center license.
Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation will issue Dispensary license.
Illinois Department of Health will issue patient documentation.

Everything is fairly well defined in current bill. Licensing requirements and process. Once underway, Departments above will refine further the implementation.

2. One would just as any other business/endeavor. Various options to accomplish such.

1. Just as any other. One would proceed based on the same principles as any other business start up.

a. Review and understand proposed guidelines to understand what is initially called for from not only the individual(s) and/or organization, and licensure.

Yes, I am simplifying the above. I tend to approach any and all matters as such. (My background). Review proposed. Familiarize. Site locations, license requirements, conceive/design/build/staffing (cultivation or dispensary), review and compile budget(s).

The proposed, and the nature of Illinois politics does present a unique set of factors (and questions), but the initial always the same.

It cant be easy for the state to make these choices. I may be way off base but the red tape to open one of the 22 grow locations or 60 dispensaries could take a year or more.

That addresses a different set of questions:
1.How will application(s)/packages be reviewed and chosen?
2. What will be the review process (for state departments) on selecting candidate(s) for licensure? (assuming several/many acceptable license applications/packages to choose from, etc)
3. What will be the time frame/limits to grant license for any region? (applications accepted upon this date, 10 received on said date, etc)

All of the above mentioned are not the true areas of concern for a potential applicant. The above all "the easy part"

If that's true then you are in the same position as IL is for concealed carry.

I'm a big concealed carry guy (throughout country, multiple state permits held). IL CC/CCW fairly straightforward, and similar, as above to many other states. Background check, training verified/verification, etc. (Looking forward to that one btw)

Because IL lawmakers have been dragging their feet on releasing the concealed carry details you see townships stating they are going to allow concealed carry to anyone with a FOID card. Their reasoning is they don't want to later get sued because they are suppressing someones rights.

Seems standard CCW so far, as above. Background check, training, and saw a mention this week of (I believe, iirc) not honoring other state permits (as most states do in one form or another), and was something along the lines of will grant non residents IL permits. Again, just an issue of the review and process.

DO you think, much like our own Julian who is trying to be on the leading edge of this, that lawmakers are already sitting down with wannabe applicants discussing how to make this happen?

They have been for quite a while. (years) That is how proposed were established to begin with.

To me?, the only true question is how deep will the politics go regarding issuance of minimal number of licenses, but, this in itself could/would be another dozen , if not more, pages.

If this goes through on Jan 2014 I cant see how they put this altogether before people begin to sue for legal rights to medicine. I keep going back to how screwed the implementation of concealed carry seems to be or at least from the outside looking in.

I pose all these question out of ignorance and the fact i would like to see how and where a person like myself fits into what I believe is a opportunity to those who can grasp the whole situation.

Knowledge is power!!

1. Forget the CC issue. Your complicating the process/thought process. CC will be very simple. (I hold several in several states). Not a problem. Nothing special. Simply a matter of them releasing the license app. Will probably be, like most, submit photo, prints, fee(s), and copy of training (per guidelines), and, your good. Permit issued.

The question about the Jan 1st, 2014 date seems to be will that be the day/date applications will be ready to be reviewed and granted, or the date that procedures for such will be established? (All IL Departments will have to develop their process and any further guidelines, etc).

Your complicating my friend . Very simple and straightforward issue and process. .

Don't let it intimidate you.

 

[hamstring]

Julian
All I can say is truly missed you around here.

Straight forward thoughtful answers to questions. No BS or tiptoeing around I really enjoy this type of back and forth.

I cant argue with your feedback and I appreciate the knowledge. I agree with your thoughts and its the people like yourself that can see past emotional side to the crux of situation that are needed in this conversation.

 

[Julian]

Thank you. That is very kind of you to say, and I do/have missed it here myself immensely.

I would wholeheartedly agree that such matters, especially if one is closer than arms length can bring into play emotion(s), as it does for myself on many levels, but of course, this is business, and in such matter emotions only cloud reason, and judgement, and prevent that which we seek/are trying to accomplish. (Or at the very lest, complicate )

I am tiptoeing to a degree, as I do have a professional interest in all matters under discussion, and am doing my best to draw the lines between what is "appropriate" and what is not. Myself, and firm are addressing and serving many in various capacities in the understanding and pursuit of the aformentioned situation(s) in IL, as well as elsewhere, so, trying to assist and contribute without it becoming a "solicitation". (On a personal note, I'm thrilled to finally be in a professional capacity that entails such ).

I think the true issues to any potential operator lie, in the end, in matters having to due with the well known politics of the state. Everything else fairly simple and straightforward. There are though, various strategies which can be utilized to compensate for such, depending on ones objectives. (This is an area where I begin to tiptoe, as a full commentary would be...something that would be shared in a different environment....(that's the best I could phrase it )