Is this living soil thing some type of hippie scam??

[quitelost]

Hi,

I'm working on a late outdoor organic mix and would like to know what other members would suggest. The idea is a mix with low "cook" time so that I can plant quickly because its already a bit late and no animal products(bone/blood meal, feathermeal, Chicken shit etc) so that animals dont come and dig it up.

I'm thinking of making a base out of:
1. 250L bale of peat at 45% of mix
2. decent compost 40L bags at 12%
3. good humus 50L bags(i think) at 12%
4. pumice at 15-25%
5. rice hulls(not sure) at 5-10%
6. crushed wood charcoal after 1-3 days in high nitrogen solution at 5%


With the following for liming/cal:
7. Dolomite
8.Powdered shell
9. Looking for gypsym but cant find a good source

Rock powders:
10. Bentonite
11. granite or basalt (whats better?)

Plant materials:
12. Have access to fresh nettels, should I dry them and put them in the mix, top dress as mulch or ftp? The fist two options are preferable as I dont want to carry more liquid.

13. Have access to fresh horsetail but most is in dirty places the best source is outside of the city inbetween a garden and the road, I'm a bit paranoid as people put all kinds of chems on their gardens around here, should I settle or look more? Dry in the mix, top dress as mulch or ftp? The fist two options are preferable.

14. Have access to fresh dandy lion, dry in the mix, top dress as mulch or ftp? The fist two options are preferable.

15. Alfalfa meal, how should I apply it?

15.5. Kelp, I forgot Kelp meal

Ferts:
16. Bat/seabird guano (I already have this laying around). 1 kilo per 200L
17. Palm ash for K. 1L per 200L

Questions..
[1]Granite or basalt or both? Just cant find real local sources and dont want to ship too much rock, I'm very sure they exist as this is a mining area but...

[2]How much liming agent should I put given that charcoal and ash are being added?

[3]How much of the plant materials shoud I apply and how?

[4]I am thinking of using this mix plus an equal amount of local dirt on site, should I mix some compost and rice hulls in this? Should I add more ferts because my mix will be diluted?

[5]How long do I have to let this sit or can I just cut It with some old dirt reamended from indoor/a 50L bag of commercial mix and the local dirt on site and plant quickly?

[6] Any ingredients I can cut out?

[7] Any other ideas or comments?


Thanks,
ql

 

[Tonygreen]

Noo cook time mix in my sig but it has bone meal and blood meal. Good luck.

 

[xmobotx]

peruse my 'getting started w/ living soil' thread for the 'no cook' method to~ {get ready for it} ~get started w/ living soil

mix a killer organic soil and let that cook while you top-dress your 1st run in a seedling mix'

i hold your hand the whole way and ask away if you have any questions

 

[quitelost]

Ok will topdress with the plant stuff but I think some alfalfa and kelp will be mixed in very lightly. Still going to add guano and ash at about 1/4-1/3 strength because I have some. Ive added guano lightly with no cooktime before and didn't experience issues.
xmobotx your seedling mix has no rock powders(except liming agents), why? Looking to add the little zeolite gravel I have around already plus buying some powdered bentonite, basalt and/or granite.
If cut the lime down to 1 tablespoon per gallon it should be ok with the charcoal and ash, no?


Note to self:

This is CC's 3-way lime mix based off Steve Soloman's 3-way lime mix.

1 part powdered dolomite
1 part agricultural gypsum
2 parts powdered oyster shell

1 to 2 tablespoons lime mix per gallon of peat moss...NOT soil mix. Or 1 cup per cubic foot of peat moss.

 

[canna woop!]

yes but you may still wish to add more lime, fixing peat moss can take 1.5-2 cups lime per CF

theres calcium in different soil ingredients but they are not all carbonates that adjust the pH\\

quitelost, it seems like you have a few different soils going and are asking the right questions, but more than others can tell you, \maybe u will share how your plants have been growing?

I would compost the alfalfa, composts with alfalfa are great for growing medicine but it can take months to break down... Other plant materials as well but alfalfa should be added in particularly low amounts if you're talking the raw material. It can also be used to make a 10-20 hour tea that is very potent compost/soil activator, as well as plant stimulant in diluted amounts... all these things should be diluted...

in the similar way dandelion makes a killer tea, but it is best served in low amounts, freshly chopped, because it can cause some mutated growth if they are given too much plant material/time fermenting

 

[quitelost]

yeah but charcoal and ash change the ph, should I add 1.5 tablespoons lime mix/gallon peat to be sure?

 

[canna woop!]

yeah but charcoal and ash adjust the ph as well should I add 1.5 tablespoon lime mix/gallon peat to be sure?

that is true and it looks like you have the right recipe, the right picture for soil building. Please keep posted with your progress or other questions you are left with. I am sure I didn't cover them all

also if possible go with a lower amount each+more diverse mix for the clay/minerals component that goes in at 3-5 C/CF, and go a bit more liberal with the rice hulls... you need to water more frequently but it is real nice for the extra drainage esp. with +%25 of compost in the base

 

[quitelost]

Other plant materials as well but alfalfa should be added in particularly low amounts if you're talking the raw material...

I'm talking dry alfalfa meal and I plan to add very little because I hear it can burn and cause much strech. Anyone have an idea of a really conservative amount to add, I've never used this before?

Would you(anyone) use plants from inbetween a garden and the road(meter or 2 space) to mulch with, this is one of the better places I found horsetail? I fear that the people here use many chems, its frustrating that I see it everywhere in dirty urban areas but it costs an arm and a leg shipped out from the other end of the country.

 

[xmobotx]

if you are transpo'n mature plants; go ahead and lightly add your kelp and guano {like tsp/gallon or less} but; if you are talking seedlings or sprouting seeds again you would be better served top-dressing them a little while later {4th node or older}

w/ the alfalfa you would be better served applying it as a tea later than mixing it in your soil ~@least if you want to plant right away

yes you could sub ash for some of the liming {ash is one of the ways nature corrects soil}

i have used and like that 3-way lime mix you quoted but; today i prefer to think of it as Ca/mineral amendments NOT lime ~the term "lime" seems antiquated and inaccurate to me

the rock powders and clay wouldnt hurt your 'seedling mix' as the rock dust is basically inert and helps for the long run w/ recycling and no-till pots over the years and the clay is a buffer {like char as well}

the reason i go w/ a seedling mix for getting started is that's what it is~ "getting started" & i like a seedling mix for transpo'n clones ~you can do a lot w/ a seedling mix and some top-dressing/teas

 

[quitelost]

This is to plant plants that have a few nodes not seedlings, have some seeds in a warm mix and they seem ok..
still think I should wait on the alfalfa? I have no idea never used it and don't want to overdo it but if I could add a little it would be nice I want a little more plant material than the kelp, but if it's risky gamble forget it..
Wan't to avoid carrying teas if possible but will pour on a few.

 

[xmobotx]

honestly there is little difference between a quick rinse tea and a top dress watered through when you water ~long term infusion or bubbling is different/as is FPEs

just like sawing a board you can make it shorter but difficult to add length back well; you can feed more but difficult to take feed out

more important than that is the 'living aspect' you should be taking care of the soil as a living organism ~if you have quality humus inputs {TM7 from bio-ag can help some w/ that too} as long as you dont have a harsh environment in your soil {like too much "nutes"} etc........

 

[quitelost]

quitelost, it seems like you have a few different soils going and are asking the right questions, but more than others can tell you, \maybe u will share how your plants have been growing?

The last grow here was basically without stuff from bottles but I dont think the soil had enough humus and that this made it a little unstable. Some of the plants stayed in small containers because they streched too much, manala cream some were 2 meters(bent) in 5 liter containers and this made the soil less stable. They were watered with too many soluable ferts (guano, bannana tea, ash) the lack of sufficent humus and rock powders didnt help. Some times ferts with more P or K were added seperatly, think that they should be well balanced and added together if highly soluable. I have thread with pictures here but haven't updated it as I have been a bit occupied, when I have time I will finish the grow thread. That grow convinced me that a real organic way (no fake bottle hype) is possible even though some errors were made.

The ingredients I put are what is available near me, here organic farming is very rare and those that do so use some different tecniques (larger scale and timeframe) so this is what seemed like a stable mix based on what is available for order and whats on hand.

 

[quitelost]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From a thread I put in the outdoor forum thats related and havent had any responses to:
"The best site I've seen has no dirt it's basically all rock with some plants holding it together here and there. Is it worth it to put about 400-600L of earth enclosed in a bed upthere or would it dry out really quickly on the sunny rocks like small pots did last year? The area in question is really rainy and plants in the ground rarely need watering plus the morning mist should provide a fair amount of water. Wonding if its worth the hassle, site gets good sun and others dont compare."
[/FONT][/FONT]Started that thread thread thinking of taking 2-3 200L boxes and cutting the bottom/top off puting some rocks around the 2 or three pressed together and have it be like one raised bed 2-3 plants to each box(no tape, nothing). The box is to hold the dirt in place as it settles and allow putting large randomly shaped rocks as a border, dont want to break rocks for multiple reasons. Does this sound feasable without drippers, it rains all the time here but that spot gets very warm thanks to the sun on the rocks which are light almost white and very reflective, if they were darker colored I might think it impossible.

 

[canna woop!]

It's very tough to say from that description. You should try it out and see what happens. I would guess you want to make sure the soil is deep and can support the weed before going all out there, but at the same time there's no better way to now that growin. What do you think if you dig in there with your hands? Would you add anything before planting? How else could you cope with water or lack thereof besides dripper line? Not that these questions are most important but I am just trying to learn more from you. Not sure if I would use those horsetails since they will also store toxins washed off the street, so maybe harvest them from a a more rural location if possible? They would make a good green material for compost

Btw it sounds like you are making good progress with your soils and gardening. Ditching chem fert altogether really does make the difference. It's not the same vigor as chem fert s maybe, but who wants chem filled frankenbuds any how?

 

[quitelost]

It really rains alot here, alot its starting to depress me, but it waters the plants pretty well. Could try and water a bit once a week but dragging more than 10-20 gal water to this site is a serious hassle. It is forcasted to rain at least three times a week in the next month. It can get dryer in the summer but it nearly always rains last year was a very dry summer for here and most things were green. At 48 lat or so and it never really gets hot here high 80's in direct sun on a august day is possible. The only issue is the rocky spot if there was a bit of dirt there would be no worrying on my part.
Dig with my hands I have leather gloves but its all rock the Idea is to take some out level out the bottom of hole with dirt and stones from the area so its 8-12inches deep put a 150-200 Liter carboad box with the top and bottom cut off surround that with rocks and fill with dirt. 2 or three of these boxes pressed together side to side to make one decent sized soil bed of 1.5m x 0.8m and 13inches high plus whats below ground.

I have blumats unused but it think that would be difficult to set up as if the lines dry-out the whole system needs to be reset.

 

[canna woop!]

I don't know about the cardboard. I think your best bet is to try taking the compost up there to loosen the soil? Then let nature run its course. if there are no plants or soil bugs visible then you are starting from scratch pretty much

 

[quitelost]

Could also try to make one big bed which would be better but much harder.The site is mostly large rocks with some veg inbetween but no real soil, all would be brought in, will try and move some rocks but I don't think there is much to hope for, some sparse shrub and tree growth is all there is.

Forgeting the cardboard because some has borax or caustic soda so it's out.

May have to break rocks....

and/or make smart pots

Or giveup on this location.

 

[quitelost]

Thinking of cutting out the pumice and useing only rice hulls, I read they work well.

 

[canna woop!]

ql\ i just re-read your previous post regarding the cardboard and i think that would actually work well. If you are worried about the roots making contact with the board perhaps line the interior with plastic? The concept of the sides providing shelter for a soil food web on a rock makes sense though. I was just confused about what you were thinking about using carbdoard for apparenty (beside the borax and soda)

 

[quitelost]

Read about the use of cardboard as mulch and I think my idea might work. I personally would not and will not use it as a mulch.


"In paul stamets book he says that cardboard, North American, Canadian or Eurpopean cardboard is alright" http://www.permies.com/t/2157/organic/concerns-cardboard-newspaper-mulch