Timing is huge! When to use all this organic stuff.

[VerdantGreen]

I reject the basic premise that one can remove or restrict Nitrogen or any other element if for no other reason that the grow store approach which selects each and every element via a specific amendment.

IOW, Alfalfa is for Nitrogen, Kelp is for Potassium, Limestone is for Calcium, Crab meal is for Chitin and the parade goes on. The calculations posted are ludicrous at best.

It shows at the very least a complete and total misunderstanding what a bionutrient accumulator plant actually provides. It's beyond mythical.

Is there anything approaching science available to read other than articles at weed magazines or ill-informed books? Anything approaching a legitimate study?

I remain doubtful as always

CC

coot, if this was an answer to my question then thanks, but you have made a couple of statements and then cited Alfalfa as the nitrogen source, and i dont use alfalfa so have no experience of it.

i specifically stated that i use powdered bat guano as a fast release Nitrogen fert in my soil and was hoping if one of you guys could answer my question in post 127 as it relates to MY soil.

as i see it, by its very definition, a fast release fertilizer is going to become available, and get depleted more quickly than a slow release fert. I understand that this is a simplification and some of it will be chelated etc etc, but in general it has to become depleted quicker?.

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

here is an interesting paper on senesence
http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/113/2/313.full.pdf

Like many other genetically programmed developmental processes, leaf senescence, particularly its initiation,is subject to regulation by many environmental and autonomous (internal) factors. environmental cues include stresses such as extremes of temperature, drought, ozone, nutrient deficiency, pathogen infection, wounding, and shading, whereas the autonomous factors include age, reproductive development,and phytohormone levels.

so in an indoor sensi grow, nearly all of those triggers to senescense are removed - especially if your soil doesnt become depleted in nutrients?

 

[Microbeman]

Mm, apologies in advance that you will find this tiresome, but what you describe doesnt really prove that nutrients aren't depleted... indeed it seems to confirm that they are.
the nutrients required by a small plant in vegetative growth are going to be way less than a flowering plant whose roots have grown to fill the pot.
so if a small plant can only get along in your soil for a couple of weeks in a 5 gallon pot before requiring extra nutrients then how is that proving that the nutrients aren't depleted in the soil?

for comparison i put my rooted clones into an unferted soil mix that contains 20% compost but no other nutrition amendments. They grow quite happily in this for a couple of weeks before i pot them up into my fully amended soil.

VG

2 weeks or longer before requiring what you guys call ferts.

 

[Microbeman]

VG; Your statyement that young plants require fewer nutrients and therefore.... is based upon what?

 

[VerdantGreen]

indeed Mm, that is what you said and the above is my response to it.

could you address my specific question in post 127 as it relates to the ingredients i use in my soil please.

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

VG; Your statyement that young plants require fewer nutrients and therefore.... is based upon what?

based on the fact that they have a smaller root mass and are building biomass as a much slower rate than a large plant, especially a large plant that is fully rooted into the pot and going into flower.

 

[Microbeman]

is that a pot size Mm? you'll have to give me a volume if it's to mean anything to me, i live on a different continent to you.

VG

I thought it is an international term amongst horticulturists. I thought it originated in Holland but apparently not. It refers to a #5 pot which is somewhat just under 5 gallons

http://www.utextension.utk.edu/mtnp...on/Container_Production_Handout_rev_ 8-10.pdf

I remember someone mentionin Timothy as an alfalfa replacement. It is likely the mainstay for hay in your area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy-grass
http://www.anderson-hay.com/blog/bid/52381/Where-did-the-name-Timothy-Hay-come-from

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for the links Mm.
heres what i mean by a large plant building biomass in early flower. i'm sure you will agree that this required much more in the way of nutrients from the soil than a young transplant in veg.
its blueberry

EDIT :same plant at 2 weeks flower, 3 weeks after the veg pic was taken. only the top 2 tips on the vegging plant would have reached that screen when it was put into flower.

VG

 

[xmobotx]

VG in your area; 'lucerne' = alfalfa

they are the same thing just a different name

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks xmo.

the thing is i have over half a sack of the guano and ive already had that sack for 5 years. i like the way it works in my soil as part of the overall mix. it really encourages that explosive growth that most plants are capable of in early flower.

VG

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MHG

Back to the original intent of your thread, see how this use of the materials you have available.

The soil deal you have down so no need to discuss that...

I run two 'teas' every week in both veg and flower rooms as follows

Tea #1

Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0
BioAg Ful-Power

Tea #2

Aloe Vera
Coconut Water - on this one you can use 1/4 cup for good results
BioAg TM-7

When you put them into flower, top dress with up to 2" of vermicompost.

That's it.

CC

 

[VerdantGreen]

i get the message coot

in response to your earlier post
http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/16/1/39.full.pdf

.......

Is there anything approaching science available to read other than articles at weed magazines or ill-informed books? Anything approaching a legitimate study?

I remain doubtful as always

CC

 

[MileHighGuy]

Thanks ClackamasCootz, somehow I already knew that your answer would be simple.

I tend to enjoy over thinking things, but in the end, I typically return back to the basics... at least with a better appreciation for them.

With that mindset I'm going to enjoy tinkering with the recipes over at GilCarandang.com

 

[Corpsey]

CC, regarding the BioAg products ful-power & tm-7, at what rates are you using these?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

yourcorpse

I follow their suggested application rates and this is especially important on the Ful-Power. Hi-dosing will (not can) result in some horrific expressions that no amount of 'flushing' or 'nute deprivation' can fix or resolve.

Ful-Power - 1 oz. per gallon of water. 1x per week is more than adequate.

TM-7 - 1 gram which is 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water. 1x per week is also more than adequate.

If you live in some of the western states, these two products are available at stores serviced by NGW (National Garden Wholesale) aka SunLight Mfg. and the price will be less than ordering direct from BioAg - they must have really cut some kind of deal! LOL

For example, a gallon of Ful-Power is $65.00 from BioAg which includes S&H charges. A gallon from Duh Dude at Hydro Heaven with the obligatory 'good dude discount' drops below $50.00 and if you bought their 2.5 gallon jug the price drops below $35.00 per gallon

Just trying to say that shopping price can save you quite a bit of money.

HTH

CC

 

[Microbeman]

but, just so i am straight on this, you guys are also telling me that MY soil in MY pots does not become depleted in Nitrogen during the course of my flowering cycle?

I assume this is your question in #127. Obviously there would be some depletion of nutrients in general, however you mentioned that a base of your mix (if I'm not mistaken) is 20 to 30+% compost/vermicompost.

If this is of good quality it should be all that is necessary nutrientwise to support a plant through vegetation in a second season. I have done this often, with only some ACT.

Outside, we did this with corn last season, which I believe may have higher nutrient demands than cannabis.

When you commented about the nutrient requirements beyond the 2weeks ++ and the need for 'ferts', it is a topdressing of compost/vermicompost which I refer to. This, I believe you may be calling mild or slow nutrient release material(?)

In that size container (dependent on how it is structured and treated) there is likely a need for more nutrients in the 3rd season and some may wish to reamend a container of that size.

As I've stated no one can argue that what you do, works well for what you want but to me it is conventional technique which has been pushed by the indu$try.

I've also stated my attitude and techniques are more primal in my views of what a living soil is and I'm only here to bring some attention to it.

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for the response Mm. The link i left for coot both supports and explains what i was asserting about how my soil behaves and i feel i understand it even better now, which is great.
As for 'organic practice' i am quite happy with the way i grow and the resultant crop is superb in both quality and quantity.
In the UK neither peat nor pot culture qualifies as organic under the soil association rules so i have long ago learned to make my own decisions on how i want to grow and i'm very happy to use bat guano as part of my soil mix. In a very small grow like mine i need to maximise my yield and efficiency, the fast release fert helps me to do that.

I love you guys but please dont presume that everyone else's soil behaves in exactly the same way as yours does in terms of its nutrient delivery and depletion, such assumptions are the root cause of arguments and alienation.

sincerely

VG

 

[Microbeman]

Hey VG; Just so you may feel more at ease there is no 'you guys'. It is just me. Most of the time I do not know how my soil will 'behave'. ;>

My views and practice separate me from most. No criticism is intended. These are just the impressions which my experience and research have left me with. I would never again have my farming certified by the organic certifiers because 'in my opinion' they are mostly clueless.

The use of guano aside, I used your basic method for a long time but through a combination of lack of funds and manpower discovered I did not need to do all that and still got pretty much the same results, tangibly but I also believe healthier. (congecture on my part)

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks Mm, yes we all have to make choices based on our situation and beliefs. I dont use any dead animal products for example, (but im NOT Veganic lmao).
the time i can spend with my plants is very limited (kids dont know about them) so i put a lot of thought and effort into the soil preparation and composition so that i can pretty much just water it for the whole cycle. Brewing teas not really an option for me either atm.

they are actually trying to ban the use of peat for horticulture altogether in England. the latest target is to phase it out completely by 2020.

VG

 

[herbgreen]