Stabilizing desirable traits in heterozygous plants?

[VerdantGreen]

...

Some females reverse but don't have pollen. This tells us that this trait it is in the individual plants, selection of the females with this Mitochondrial DNA will continue to express this trait.

you're talking about the 'true female'? - any examples?
UK cheese was always used as an example but that has been successfully reversed now. i will agree that some are harder to reverse than others.

i would have thought that if selfing was detrimental to cannabis that it would have evolved to be 'self incompatible' like quite a few other plant species.

VG

 

[Aardwolf]

Yes this would be likely VG. Either true females or homogenous females should reverse.

But did you do it...

I can inbreed natural inter-sexed plants from dioecious matings, so this isn't the case with naturally occurring cannabis,

The pollen and the Y is there to stop this inbreeding depression happening too much VG, out-crosses are much more productive from the outset.

All our genetics come from the Ruderalis at one time or another there is plenty of diversity to be brought to the forefront of the cannabis genome. Basic environmental conditions and selective routines cause adaptations, these have been the success so far!

 

[VerdantGreen]

out-crossing is great to create new cultivars/strains, but if you are trying to reproduce a clone in seed form then i believe selfing is the way to go.... but if said clone is an oustanding pheno of a hermi-prone multi-hybrid then dont go blaming the method when you get intersex offspring with huge variation.

the main drawback i see from selfed lines is that they cannot be furthered or reproduced without special chemicals/equipment. apart from that i dont see a problem.

VG

 

[Aardwolf]

Cool, it's nice to have some common ground of understanding.

 

[fadetoclear]

another GREAT example is DJ short's blueberry. as anybody who has followed DJ's work can attest, he was pretty adamant in his assumption that the thai strain he used had been force reversed at some point in it's life and that alone was the cause of the rampant hermaphroditism in literally every blueberry cross EVER (if i'm not mistaken, that same thai plant was used in flo and a few of his other crosses that ALL exhibit rampant hermaphroditism). anyone who has ever grown a DJ short strain can attest to the SUPER high numbers of hermis. for all DJ's experience with breeding, he was never able to successfully breed out the intersex trait that was more than likely caused by the sort of stuff you guys are sticking up for.

i could pull and notate every article DJ has written about this but to be honest, it's fairly common knowledge.

as for the dispute on tom's original use of the word "self"...i took that to mean crossing within one's own progeny line (ie.crossing to a brother or father). i'll admit i may be wrong here but to assume he meant "reverse stress the plant and polinate it with it's own pollen" doesn't seem to fit in the context of what he was saying.

 

[stickshift]

another GREAT example is DJ short's blueberry. as anybody who has followed DJ's work can attest, he was pretty adamant in his assumption that the thai strain he used had been force reversed at some point in it's life (in his words...most likely using colloidal silver) and that alone was the cause of the rampant hermaphroditism in literally every blueberry cross EVER (if i'm not mistaken, that same thai plant was used in flo and a few of his other crosses that ALL exhibit rampant hermaphroditism). anyone who has ever grown a DJ short strain can attest to the SUPER high numbers of hermis. for all DJ's experience with breeding, he was never able to successfully breed out the intersex trait that was more than likely caused by the sort of stuff you guys are sticking up for.

i could pull and notate every article DJ has written about this but to be honest, it's fairly common knowledge.

haha you think that is the cause and nothing to do with numbers used and the "reveresd backward" males, I also thought his assumption was colc treatment? Only whoever bred the OPT would know, bit there is the fact that thais have a higher ratio of intersexes, it's in it, selfing could help you sort that but that's just evil talk.

 

[VerdantGreen]

another GREAT example is DJ short's blueberry. as anybody who has followed DJ's work can attest, he was pretty adamant in his assumption that the thai strain he used had been force reversed at some point in it's life and that alone was the cause of the rampant hermaphroditism in literally every blueberry cross EVER (if i'm not mistaken, that same thai plant was used in flo and a few of his other crosses that ALL exhibit rampant hermaphroditism). anyone who has ever grown a DJ short strain can attest to the SUPER high numbers of hermis. for all DJ's experience with breeding, he was never able to successfully breed out the intersex trait that was more than likely caused by the sort of stuff you guys are sticking up for.

i could pull and notate every article DJ has written about this but to be honest, it's fairly common knowledge.

as for the dispute on tom's original use of the word "self"...i took that to mean crossing within one's own progeny line (ie.crossing to a brother or father). i'll admit i may be wrong here but to assume he meant "reverse stress the plant and polinate it with it's own pollen" doesn't seem to fit in the context of what he was saying.

if thats what you call a great example then, wow, thai is renowned for hermi traits across the board.

and to cross to a brother or father is called inbreeding.

ironically my feminised bluebery cut is pretty damn stable. if you read up on DP blueberry you will see many more reports of herms from the regular seed than from the fem seed.

the word 'self' or selfing is short for self pollination, outside the myth-ridden world of canna breeding, many plants such as tomatoes self pollinate - as in the flowers have both male and female parts and pollinate themselves, in fact to out-cross a tomato is pretty difficult - you need to dismantle the flower before it opens to stop it selfing.

plants with separate male and females are pretty rare.

VG

 

[stickshift]

stress reversing as a means to stabilize traits isn't in any book i've read on genetics.

also, stress reversing has definitely been show to add hermaphroditism to otherwise stable lines.

the ONLY thing stress reversing is good for is trying to duplicate clone only strains. even then, the seeds should come with a "DO NOT BREED" warning label.

You can't of read too much then! and it's not good for replicating clones as that is all dependent on the said clone.

 

[Aardwolf]

if thats what you call a great example then, wow, thai is renowned for hermi traits across the board.

and to cross to a brother or father is called inbreeding.

ironically my feminised bluebery cut is pretty damn stable. if you read up on DP blueberry you will see many more reports of herms from the regular seed than from the fem seed.

the word 'self' or selfing is short for self pollination, outside the myth-ridden world of canna breeding, many plants such as tomatoes self pollinate - as in the flowers have both male and female parts and pollinate themselves, in fact to out-cross a tomato is pretty difficult - you need to dismantle the flower before it opens to stop it selfing.

plants with separate male and females are pretty rare.

VG

What you say about tomatoes or lycopersicon is true but only for those potato leaved varieties such as 'gardeners delight' even these will out-cross look here.http://www.realseeds.co.uk/

Togi is a small Irish version of gardeners delight, the breeders witnessed segregation and are selling the seed of this predominately self fertilizing or clestiogamous Cultivar. The principal advantage of cleistogamy is that it requires less plant resources to produce seeds than by chasmogamy. The obvious disadvantage of cleistogamy is that self-fertilization occurs which may suppress the creation of genetically superior plants.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i dont think gardeners delight is a potato leafed variety.

pink brandywine is and i made a cross of the two. it was ok.

 

[Aardwolf]

Yes I stand corrected VG, Lycoperscion esculenta 'Gardenerd Delight' (AGM) is a RL Leaf Type, however the gardeners Delight type From the company in the above link is an old Heirloom seed type many of which are the PL variety. ToGi has nothing to do with the (AGM) cultivar, My mistake.

Thank you VG I learned something today. How does the cross grow VG, Got any seeds left?

 

[fadetoclear]

all i can say is keep watering down that gene pool. my guess is we see another 10 fold increase in intersex numbers as more and more reverse chuckers try replicating the next "girl scout cookies".

 

[gloryoskie]

Reversing alters hormone levels. The DNA is unchanged.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

I believe so too VG, half of the cannabis genome is added from a male haploid condition, therefore the female side of it needs to find some Y from somewhere to survive. This is why we inherently see more inter-sexed plants using this seed making technique.

It is documented in many parers that a big Y is the only determination between the sexes, and that looking at the phenotypes is utter useless for scientific breeding purposes. http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs001220051043.pdf

Everything I have grown that was not of a dioecious cross is not able to produce the minerals I require.

If a plant self's it is not going to produce the offspring I require because of the survival trait. Sex is an environmental induced trait despite the fact that we know it is chromatically determined (genotype). The ratio can be pushed a little way in either direction, that's the environmental determination of sex and not a primary/sole source of sex determination.

This defines Hack and breeding plan/program VG, one method is artistic use of science the other is by chance, scientific breeding plans make synthetic lines, they allow no other determination of sex, Sex and Genotype is set by the breeder at propagation ideally through trial and error to hopefully realise and achieve the mono-hybrid ratio through these breeding practices.

These plants will stay true in multiple environments.

(seriously love this post!!!) because I would think that this is the very definition or determinate of stability: "These plants will stay true in multiple environments"

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

i will also stand by my assumption (until tom comes in and states otherwise) that in tom's original post, the using of the term "self" did not imply stress reversal.

yeah, when I read that in another post I was kinda wondering how the whole "self'ing" thing would work.

im my laymans mind "self'ing" would be synonymous with hermie, since how else could something like that happen?

and I understand what your saying though, that whole aspect of using levels of stress to make the plant do what you want it to can only have negative/bad results down the line so self'ing in and of itself is not bad but the question is "how" is it done? (I dig it)

 

[fadetoclear]

selfd in traditional parlance (as far as i always understood it) meant to cross it within it's own lineage.

that was until all the colloidal silver camp came in.

 

[VerdantGreen]

ftc you are plain wrong about your definition of selfing. you are confused between selfing and inbreeding. dont try and blame your wrongness on canna breeding these are universal terms in plant breeding. even wiki will tell you that. really you should check your facts before trying to state them so categorically.
VG

Aardwolf. the tomotoes from the cross were OK but the cross between RL and potatoe leafed variety made for some very odd, confused looking leaves.

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

........
If a plant self's it is not going to produce the offspring I require because of the survival trait. Sex is an environmental induced trait despite the fact that we know it is chromatically determined (genotype). The ratio can be pushed a little way in either direction, that's the environmental determination of sex and not a primary/sole source of sex determination.

........

so do you attempt to reverse every plant that is a candidate for your breeding programs? if it doesnt produce pollen then how do you know if it's one of your mythical 'true females' or if you didnt get the selfing process quite right for that plant?
i think its impossible to know for sure that a plant can't be selfed unless you have a lot of time and equipment on your hands. in fact i believe that every plant has the ability to reverse, just some are harder than others.
can you give me an example of a plant/cut that no-one has been able to reverse?

eta - also, what do you do to evaluate the males you use? do you try to reverse them into females to make sure that you cant and they are 'true' males?

you see, it sounds good and proper in theory but in practice it just isnt, erm, practicable.

VG

 

[Aardwolf]

I use the Lab VG and with my horticultural lecturer that is a master of horticulture, together we are able to identify this Y chromosome,
I take in petri dishes of roots to have tested for the condition you are asking about.

I wouldn't ever spray anything that wasn't a plant onto my plants it just not needed with the right knowledge and input we can achieve anything. Reversal is a waste of my time and space you will get nowhere fast, despite what all those textbooks say.

I am steps ahead of you VG testing progeny and parents in the Lab. Many people grow plants out after chemical reversal but stress simply changes the original plant suppressing the phenotype and what is passed genetically on before you find out what it truly is, this is not good breeding practice neither is selling this 'breeders seed' for human consumption, seed made using this technique has no certification or authentication, is inferior by genetic composition to the same lines seed made from dioecious propagation which improves every filial generation with or without the assistance of the breeder.

This root tip technique is basic but holds water.

A natural Hermi won't reverse VG if that is good enough for you. Plants that won't reverse are Homogeneous for the trait you are talking about, people or the current breeders have neglected to use them because they have poor standards and worse ethics.

When I create my finished line this reversal won't happen, You can test and see if it will reverse, until then there is no proof THAT ANY OF THE PARENT PLANTS ARE NOT CARRIERS. None of the seed available is made this way I am explaining as it is too advanced and scientific for the layman.

This argument is nothing VG much like the argument that S1 seeds is a stable way of breeding.


You need to know the ploidy of any outstanding clone before doing anything, basically to understand how it works and how it is able to do its individual thing or why.

 

[VerdantGreen]

can you explain a bit more about this? you are just testing for the presence of a Y chromosome? how does this tell you that the plant wont reverse?

also i really dont see why this comes down to ethics.

can you also explain why S1 seed is inferior? given that most people dont require males i dont see the lack of them as a drawback, more of an advantage for most people.
add to this the fact that an S1 is more likely to breed true for its traits than the Parent, then what is inferior about it. please give me references and not opinions/prejudice.

VG