Timing is huge! When to use all this organic stuff.

[MileHighGuy]

I know this might seem overwhelming to someone just starting organics, but keep in mind all this specialty stuff isn't necessary for great plants. Just water only with solid soil.

That being said, this is a fantastic hobby and we are all in pursuit of a better tasting bud and a better performing plant. With that spirit I'd like to talk about going above and beyond the water only organics... and see how all of you plan along. I'd also like to talk about Plant Hormones.

If nothing this has been an exercise of visualising the entire grow for me... do you all do that or just go along day by day with the grow?

I want to pretend for just a minute that all things are equal and that we all have a the very same well amended soil and it will perform as needed with just water.

Now with this well built soil, a clone is transplanted.

At this point I'd like to discuss with everyone here, when, and more specifically WHY you use certain ingredients, teas, foliars etc at certain times.

I'll start, not with where my grow is at, but rather where my reading has taken me to and what I'd like to do going forward.

VEG:

Compost Tea upon entry.

Aloe, Silica, Ful-Power almost everytime after that.

Occasional water only.

IPM Foliar every 3-4 days with Aloe, Silica or occasionally with Neem and Dr. Bronners + some Essential Oils.

Once per week I use the Barley Tea Spout at 1 cup per gallon in my watering mix.

FLOWER:

EWC Tea on transition day.

Water with TM-7 first 2 weeks while using a Foliar recipe also.

Foliar first 2 weeks: Once per week Alfalfa Meal, Silica, Aloe and once per week with neem meal tea, Silica, Aloe.

No Foliar Weeks 3-4 but use Alfalfa/Kelp Tea, Silica, Aloe and Ful-Power in the watering weeks 3-4 alternating with Neem instead of Alfalfa.

Then switch to kelp meal tea with barley sprout tea once per week on the soil last half of flowering and normal Aloe, Silica, Ful-Power when not using Tea.


Plant Hormones: (The word hormone is derived from Greek, meaning set in motion)

Main 5:

Abscisic acid
Auxins
Cytokinins
Ethylene
Gibberellins

Other Known Hormones:

Brassinosteroids
Salicylic acid
Jasmonates
Plant peptide Hormones
Polyamines
Nitric Oxide
strigolactones
Karrikins

What about all these? See Wikipedia's info right here

Anyone have any other ways to use Hormones naturally like in coconut water and barley tea?

I'm Thinking about the alfalfa for the Triacontanol and Nitrogen in beginning of flower. Triacontanol is a Growth stimulant and should shorten node spacing and increase the amount of bud sites.

I'm thinking about more Enzymes with barley teas all through flower and more kelp in late flower.

As you can see I'm also thinking about using the Ful-Power, Aloe, Silica A Freaking Lot.

I've read to much good stuff about Salicylic Acid to not use aloe. Silica is obviously helping in my yeild and plant strength and the Humic Acids are really allowing me to run soils that aren't optimum with great results..... so using these three often in a very well made soil is for sure going to happen.

Now Let's hear about What you're doing and why!!??

 

[xmobotx]

idk so much about using alfalfa in flower

what happened to me was more stretch, longer node space, and more air in the flowers

i would use it in veg for max yield later but my focus these days is on fitting my space so i dont use it except to make compost

you should already know i m a big aloe advocate ~salicylic acid is the tip of the iceberg though; i got some of that powder and use tsp/gal to water {1x/mo or so} and foliar w/ my pro-techt {same freq}

sprouted barley seed is cool too pretty much do that 1x/mo

and then compost tea goes 1x/mo

other than that its water only but those are rough figures its prob a little more than that

 

[bajangreen]

MileHighGuy your right timing is huge!! i hit with a tilapia shit slury just before august stretch for sure. and a good neem soon after when the hairs are now starting to come out, to make sure they go into flowering with out any harassment from the bugs then a top dress with wood ash at this point too.

Pretty much everything else is by how i "feel" and what the plants are telling me.


lol, this reminds me of the "seed to weed" thread by 3lb, don't you miss those guys, where is coot btw?

 

[MileHighGuy]

When using the alfalfa during flower where you using a foliar spray or feeding to the roots? Just curious about this one xmobotx.

I know Coot used to use alfalfa and kelp in high doses first 4 weeks of flower....

Anyone else here use Alfalfa in first weeks of flower or is that just crazy talk?

I understand having it in the soil but I've had strains that get a little yellow a little early especially on the first run of a fresh soil and the alfalfa/kelp tea seems to help a lot.

Even if the Nitrogen levels are good, i'm curious what foliar only would do to the growth.

As my own compost finishes I will for sure be doing a water only run side by side with a plant that get's all the teas and goodies.

 

[mapinguari]

I don't hear you guys talking about FPEs at all. I'm getting ready to go spray some comfrey and nettle on my light dep plants.

As much as these organic threads are about lessening dependence on bottle shops, I still am seeing lots of folks using commercial products.

Nothing wrong with that, but I bet at least half of us have nettle, comfrey, yarrow, and other useful plants growing right in our front yards.

I miss jaykush.

 

[xmobotx]

When using the alfalfa during flower where you using a foliar spray or feeding to the roots? Just curious about this one xmobotx

i tried to qualify what i said w/ that "idk" but i was using an FPE in the water as a feed

it was the 1st cycle trying this living soil thing so i was feeding like that where today i do a little top-dress

like you say 1st couple of weeks sounds good and idk about using alfalfa as a foliar

i dont have the nettle and comfrey to work w/ ~which are the specific FPEs i would like to be using mapinguari i could do yarrow though ~maybe i should mess around w/ that

FTMP i have deferred to figuring i have those things in my compost but i would probably feel more OK about foliar w/ nettle than w/ pro-techt

my thing is i like to experiment

MHG is right though a good linear topic w/ a timeline {as bajangreen pointed out 'seed to weed'} is a good idea

 

[bigshrimp]

I mostly play it by ear but there are a couple of things i water in routinely.

Protekt - 2ml/gallon ever watering from cut to chop

TM7 followed by sprout tea the day or two after - 1 Tbs TM7 / 5 gallons and 3/4 cup quinoa sprouts pureed with 80ml fulvic acid / 5 gallons. I stop feeding this a couple weeks before chop.

Usually do a alfalfa-neem-kelp tea early mid flower.

Sometimes i feel like the growth from the sprout tea isnt as healthy as it could be so i started to feed the tm7 the day before to see if trace minerals improved the quality of growth. Moderate improvement.

Cuts from moms given this combination a couple days prior show excellent rooting and vigor.

 

[Durdy]

I like using Alfalfa teas in early flower, as far as foliars with it go I've killed 6 plants with an alfalfa foliar in the past and have been gun shy with it's use since.

I use aloe and silica every watering, a sprout tea about 2 times a week.

I'll hit them with an alfalfa / kelp tea once a week in veg

Some humic product once every one or two weeks (Ful-power or TM7)

I'll throw kelp in my sprout teas later in flower.

I top dress with EWC at every transplant and about every three weeks once in their final containers.

 

[BlueJayWay]

Timing is something that I've struggled with in the past year - and not in the sense of 'when to apply x' but in the sense of 'is timing even relevant'?

I'm going to sit and think about this one....I keep writing paragraphs and deleting them LOL .....


I think the jist of it is - If you keep a plant at peak health at all times in a rich living organic soil then timing becomes less and less relevant .

Feed the soil, the soil and the plant will do their dance.

 

[Durdy]

Feed the soil, the soil and the plant will do their dance.

That was beautiful, I really like how you worded it.

 

[MileHighGuy]

Here is a question then bluejay cause you got me thinking.

If the plant is perfectly healthy, is there anything besides good health that we can organically do to increase the resin content, yield, density etc..... sort of, push the boundaries?

Maybe Genetics and breeding are the way to do that as opposed to all these special toppings I dish out.

I know growing indoors has it's own set of requirements, but while reading about breeding in Marijuana Botany I was finding that I was doing something wrong about every paragraph I read...

Needless to say, I'm still looking for those magical genetics.

Something I'm currently learning as I go along that many of the small issues I am having now are due to genetics... not necessarily bad but not perfect for my growing environment or style.

I have a few reliable strains that I look at in awe every time, and constantly wonder why the others have slight issues..... I even have strains that I know will do better in winter, and some better in summer..... that got me thinking about working with nature instead of against it, before I even whip up my first Compost tea.

Soon I'll be cleansing and that will include letting go of some old genetics and looking forward to better selection with greater knowledge my next seed runs.

Plus, I have an Ace up my damn sleeve.... Swami Seeds.

 

[BlueJayWay]

Ok, you guys got me thinking too so I had to stop manicuring for a minute lol

First and foremost you hit the head on the nail with genetics, some just shouldn't survive lol.

What we all want, I believe, is to see a plant pushed to its absolute genetic potential. For our plant subject here I think we can all agree we're looking for those attributes as you mentioned; yield, resin, aromas....density....psychoactive affect(s). So that brings us back to the question, what can we do to accomplish this and are there any times in the plants life that 'x' should be done to provide the optimum circumstances for a plant to show it's full genetic potential?

For me, that leads to a whole sleu of more questions and possibilities...but one thing puts it in perspective for me, and this becomes the starting point for further exploration:

In cannabis gardening terms this would be best described as WATER ONLY MIX.

When the sole source of inputs (besides the obvious - water, air, light etc) are already in the soil - this whole issue becomes moot, correct?

Lets use alfalfa for example, amended directly into your water only mix - do we get never ending flowering plants because there was still some triacantonal available in the soil, so the plant had no choice but to use it up? I don't think so, the plant is using what it needs from the soil when it needs it, and when it gets to the point when it's time to die, well, it's going to die...leaving lots of goodies leftover for the next plant (so much for flushing eh?).

You've loaded the soil with everything it needs for all stages of life, some (fish)bone meal for P so that when it hits flower it has some extra P to give us some bigger flowers....Kelp for when it needs K and a whole list of micronutrients etc etc.....

Ok I'm meandering now......I think the main point is that, for me, I want the soil to be 'all that it can be' - in a perfect world my mix would be WATER ONLY, but I have yet to see crops (after crops after crops).... consistantly grown with 'water only' and consistently show their full potential.

So now we're closer to the question lol - what 'extra' can I do to consistently see my plants at their full genetic potential? And of course the timing aspect....

...My observations tell me that a plant performs its best when it is growing @ peak health it's whole life....I (we, you, whoever) mixed up a soil that I hope will keep a plant healthy for as long as possible...most of us know that at some point the plant(s) will start showing signs that it's starting to use up what was available...well in my MMJ garden I never want to observe this, that tells me the plant is using up it's resources to now simply survive rather than to flourish - which can only lead to diminishing returns....

....With the help of CC I've incorporated a few things (as have many of us) to my regular waterings to aid in this process. Silica, Aloe, Fulvic & sprouted seed teas. The benefits are given a hundred times in as many different threads so unless requested I won't go into all the details in this post other than:

1. Sprouted seed teas increase resin content & calyx size. Observational, of course, has anyone seen otherwise? Keeping a laundry list of enzymes, hormones/vitamins constantly available throughout the life of the plant allows the plant to utilize them as needed.

If I were to use a sprouted tea just once, it would probably be the 2nd week of flower as calyxes and trichomes really start to develop, giving the plant all those goodies at the time it would so choose to utilize them for the specific benefits given.....but I like to use it at least once a week, if not every watering.....kinda like one would previously use hygrozyme or prozyme, a little in each watering....

2. Fulvic Acid - We want all the humates we can get from our (vermi)compost we added to our soil, and probably topdressed @ transplants...but in my MMJ garden I never want to leave the plant wanting more....so by adding Fulvic Acid with each and every watering it ensures the nutrients the plant needs is always available to it...assuming it's in the soil.....

....Ah, so now something is missing in the soil, that little 5gal bucket of really awesome rich living soil just isn't good enough for that monster you managed to grow in it...that's when botanical teas with a looong list of readily available nutrients come in to play....timing? Right before the plant shows signs it's hungry - whenever that happens to be..in veg, early/mid flower, whenever...no magic time, no cutoff time, fuck flushing

(VRxNLH in my brain!)

The only other actual timing that I feel is relevant, and it's been mentioned, is ALFALFA, and that includes the optional (and higher triacontanol content) sprouted alfalfa tea. When we flip the lights the plant says 'oh shit time to flower' - when that thought process kicks into the plant (huh, plants thinking?) the availability of triancantonal will be beneficial so as to stimulate a larger number of flowering sites, and as a bi-product shorter internodal distances.....

....With that said, and from my own experiments/observations I don't think there's anything wrong with giving Alfalfa teas into mid/late flower for the simple benefit of "greening up a plant" - is triacantonal there, yes, is the plant being forced to use it, no....

For shits 'n giggles, I keep a 45gal no-till smart pot to flower out small 'test' plants....plants go in and out all the time, plants in all stages of flowering, newly vegged plants planted next to a plant that's been flowering for 40 days, plants being harvested the day of or day after receiving any number of different teas (neem, ACT, alfalfa, kelp, comfrey, canna, yarrow etc etc...) and always being given silica/aloe/fulvic/sprouted teas....

These pictures are intended for another thread I plan on starting, but I believe they are relevant here as this is the revolving no-till container that proves (to me) that specific 'timing' of things matter much much less than keeping plants in a constant state of health...and that flushing (organics) is for toilets.....

There's 11 little girls in there (well some aren't little anymore), this one won't be harvested for 3 weeks I think:

BO x CB - was a 4" cutting when transplanted, two weeks later it was 36" tall

While this one will be harvested today @ 55 days:

(the buds in the background are the lower buds of the BO x CB plant pictured above)

...end transmission....mission control, where are you LOL

 

[MileHighGuy]

Dude! That post was the gold I was looking for. Very good shit.

Thank you for that, it's great to peek inside someone else's mind for a little while.

I'm gonna go read that again bluejay.... Your plants are always beautiful.

 

[canna woop!]

nice topic and coverage by MHG and BJW, i may have to break down and buy some of that silica powder and the fulvics, maybe even tm-7. I don't know when I got so anti the hydro store type products, a few years ago i used to do a lot of buying stuff there for plants. quite simply though the silica assists the plants metabolism as well as supplying potassium a bit better than just kelp meal may (due to the K being tied up with other elements and sodium I guess). not sure exactly about the tm-7 but i'm sure i'll hear about it, are you guys using the fermented fulvics by bioag?

And, this time around the plants have had it harder-off than the past, the state of the recycled soil being a bit off and their neglect due to moving several times (one of the times in which they were in the house with neo-prohibitionists, the approach that feigns support for cannabis medicine, then turning against it at the last minute) and the environmental conditions being off slightly most of the time.

also a question for blujayway- or any one- you mentioned topdressing fish bone meal? really? do you find that it get's processed even though it's on the surface of the soil? I have the fish bone. So do you pre-soak it, or how much per plant do i add? also, do you only topdress once? I am guessing it also has sulpher since it stinks?

 

[bajangreen]

MileHighGuy this really is an excellent topic. thanks for it. Bjw you defiantly open up my eyes to this topic some more, you and this organic herbs I have be smoking on recently, I swear I will rather not smoke than to smoke any non-organic from now on this stuff makes you think clearer there is weed then there is organic weed. A Big part of timing for me happens to be what I am eating now, yes this may sound funny but when I cook I cook for me and my plants sometimes. Just did a sea moss drink I made extra for my babies. We are shearing more and more of the same diet.

Back to the topic however, my "timing" of applying foliar also has a lot to do with reaction, preventing or getting back on track when your babies not feeling so well. e.g. yellowing leaves to early. With time I believe a farmer should be able to spot problems before the have a more than notable effect on our babies and take required action.

Its Tom hill that describes the soil as a battery and that is the example to use, Living soil is like a deep cycle battery, and the foliar, top dress, additives to the water should be seen as a “charge” where they boost the plants and what the plant does not need the soil absorbs until the plants need it. Depending on how good you mix your soil you would need a charge more frequently or with more power than others soil mixes.

I also think that soil is a limiting factor, kinda, just like how plants can handle and even thrive when the co2 levels are way above normal I believe that plants can take more than any soil can give. So applying a regular “charge” will give better results. Usually I see noticeable growth for 4 days after I foliar, so I foliar every 4 days.

Again, thanks for the stimulating read guys.

 

[canna woop!]

Just did a sea moss drink I made extra for my babies.

Bajangreen

I'm wondering about this. can you elaborate?

thanks

cana p

 

[bajangreen]

Organic dried sea moss you can get at any health store around these parts, i am not sure what kind it is, i think it a kelp, you boil it and drink it, it goes good with brandy and oats sometimes milk blended, it comes with the sea salt on it so i boil it twice the first boil is salty so i dilute that and give it to the plants the second boil i drink my self any left overs go to the plants as well. Most my morning green tea ends up like this i just boil extra, lol.

 

[M.A.W]

....With the help of CC I've incorporated a few things (as have many of us) to my regular waterings to aid in this process. Silica, Aloe, Fulvic & sprouted seed teas. The benefits are given a hundred times in as many different threads so unless requested I won't go into all the details in this post other than:

1. Sprouted seed teas increase resin content & calyx size. Observational, of course, has anyone seen otherwise? Keeping a laundry list of enzymes, hormones/vitamins constantly available throughout the life of the plant allows the plant to utilize them as needed.

If I were to use a sprouted tea just once, it would probably be the 2nd week of flower as calyxes and trichomes really start to develop, giving the plant all those goodies at the time it would so choose to utilize them for the specific benefits given.....but I like to use it at least once a week, if not every watering.....kinda like one would previously use hygrozyme or prozyme, a little in each watering....

2. Fulvic Acid - We want all the humates we can get from our (vermi)compost we added to our soil, and probably topdressed @ transplants...but in my MMJ garden I never want to leave the plant wanting more....so by adding Fulvic Acid with each and every watering it ensures the nutrients the plant needs is always available to it...assuming it's in the soil.....

I was wondering if you could enlighten us on your rates of application for flowering? for aloe, silica, sprout tea and fulvic?

Just normal CC rates or have you played with them at all yet and if you have seen any results?

 

[oldbootz]

my opinion is that you dont have to actually flush organics with tons of water, but you definitely want to see faded and yellow leaves at the end indicative of a plant in mild to moderate starvation.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MHG

Salicylic Acid: A Plant Hormone

This is the entire book - 410 pages.

CC