First attempt at concentrate... QWET

[inreplyavalon]

Greetings. Dove in head first to the concentrate world over the last few days. Been doing my due diligence and studying up on the words of the masters. Folks like Greywolf, Jump, and midwestH, you all can only imagine how much help you have given to so many people. So thanks.

I have a few questions if anyone has some answers.
First off here is the end product.

That is a 9 gram rock that is crackable and i suppose shatterable. Not sure on the lingo, and believe shatter needs to be made as BHO but this stuff shatters and splinters all over.
I used approx. 50 grams of g13xsour trim. The weed was totally dry, then frozen, along with the everclear, before and during the soak. Took two bottles of 190 everclear to make. Let it soak for ~60 seconds, in freezer. Strained with metal strainer, then coffee filters. To purge it I used a slow cooker, but raised up the cramic bowl on a rack in order to keep temps lower as i did not want to decarb it. I routinely checked the temps of the stew and it was 120-140.
The slowcooker bowl which i decided to go directly in was sloped to the outside. So the liquid lasted around the edges the most. Sometimes i would pick up the bowl and tilt it to spread the mixture onto the center.
How do i know when its done? I stopped when the ethanol smell went away, and the liquid was just about all gone, but still goopy on the sides where it was pooling.
Is there a way to make it softer? I figured if i stopped sooner it may retain more flexibility, but it seems it would also contain ethanol as well?
Lastly, my magic flight and whip vape are no good for concentrates. Can i use an OIL type piece to vaporize this stuff? How would i do it? Do i need to melt it first?

Thanks and any and all tips are greatly appreciated. Without reclaiming the ethanol, it was pretty pricey, about 40 dollars for 9 grams..

Happy 420. Just smoked this, my first concentrate experiment, today, 4/20. I like it, got me super energized.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Greetings. Dove in head first to the concentrate world over the last few days. Been doing my due diligence and studying up on the words of the masters. Folks like Greywolf, Jump, and midwestH, you all can only imagine how much help you have given to so many people. So thanks.

I have a few questions if anyone has some answers.
First off here is the end product.
View Image
View Image
That is a 9 gram rock that is crackable and i suppose shatterable. Not sure on the lingo, and believe shatter needs to be made as BHO but this stuff shatters and splinters all over.
I used approx. 50 grams of g13xsour trim. The weed was totally dry, then frozen, along with the everclear, before and during the soak. Took two bottles of 190 everclear to make. Let it soak for ~60 seconds, in freezer. Strained with metal strainer, then coffee filters. To purge it I used a slow cooker, but raised up the cramic bowl on a rack in order to keep temps lower as i did not want to decarb it. I routinely checked the temps of the stew and it was 120-140.
The slowcooker bowl which i decided to go directly in was sloped to the outside. So the liquid lasted around the edges the most. Sometimes i would pick up the bowl and tilt it to spread the mixture onto the center.
How do i know when its done? I stopped when the ethanol smell went away, and the liquid was just about all gone, but still goopy on the sides where it was pooling.
Is there a way to make it softer? I figured if i stopped sooner it may retain more flexibility, but it seems it would also contain ethanol as well?
Lastly, my magic flight and whip vape are no good for concentrates. Can i use an OIL type piece to vaporize this stuff? How would i do it? Do i need to melt it first?

Thanks and any and all tips are greatly appreciated. Without reclaiming the ethanol, it was pretty pricey, about 40 dollars for 9 grams..

Happy 420. Just smoked this, my first concentrate experiment, today, 4/20. I like it, got me super energized.

Thanks for the good thoughts bro! It has been a good 4:20!

Your lingo is fine for these parts. Shatter is cannabinoids in carboxylic acid form, so that they are hard and brittle at room temperature.

You can extract the carboxylic forms with either a polar or non polar solvent. It is decarboxylation that makes it softer.

It is easier with a vacuum, but if you put your resin in a large dish and heat it to around 125F/140F, it will soften and flow out into a thin film. You can help it spread out some to speed it up, but do it before it gets warm enough to be sticky.

It will also start to bubble and if you watch the bubbles, you can tell when the solvent is gone. They are the larger irregularly sized bubbles, while the small fizzy bubbles are CO2 from decarboxylation.

For maximum terpene retention, you would want to stop heating the mixture when the solvent bubbles cease and only the fizzy bubbles remain.

It can be done at around 115F under -29.5 Hg vacuum.

You can also tell by taste and smell if there is any ethanol present, at levels an order of magnitude lower than levels of health concern.

If that doesn't end up soft enough for you, you can decarboxylate it further and at full decarboxylation, make a flowing oil.

 

[inreplyavalon]

GreyWolf thanks for taking some precious time and helping clear some things up for me. Very generous you are sharing all that you share. Been enjoying the reading on Skunkpharm. Particularly been enjoying the vaporizing oil pipes article and Polishing Extracts. Can feel the love all over the site, for this special plant. pipe cheers to you.

I think i understand what it is you are sharing above. Basically if i want it to be softer, than heat it up to the temps i purged the ethanol off at. I understand that would soften it, but that would be temporarily, correct? and if i heated it up to proper decarboxylation temps, would it remain in an oily state? Or does that have to do with storage? I noticed that over night after being sealed in a small glass jar that the clump sort of turned into a puddle on the bottom of the jar, but was still hard to the touch when i opened the jar in the morning.

After spending 24 hours with it, i must say not only do i really enjoy it, but i like how i can splinter it up in a jar and then sprinkle it into a device. This whole concentrate business feels like I just began falling down the rabbit hole.. An enjoyable fall

 

[Gray Wolf]

GreyWolf thanks for taking some precious time and helping clear some things up for me. Very generous you are sharing all that you share. Been enjoying the reading on Skunkpharm. Particularly been enjoying the vaporizing oil pipes article and Polishing Extracts. Can feel the love all over the site, for this special plant. pipe cheers to you.

I think i understand what it is you are sharing above. Basically if i want it to be softer, than heat it up to the temps i purged the ethanol off at. I understand that would soften it, but that would be temporarily, correct? and if i heated it up to proper decarboxylation temps, would it remain in an oily state? Or does that have to do with storage? I noticed that over night after being sealed in a small glass jar that the clump sort of turned into a puddle on the bottom of the jar, but was still hard to the touch when i opened the jar in the morning.

After spending 24 hours with it, i must say not only do i really enjoy it, but i like how i can splinter it up in a jar and then sprinkle it into a device. This whole concentrate business feels like I just began falling down the rabbit hole.. An enjoyable fall

It is the loss of the COOH atoms from the oil, that makes it soft. Slightly decarboxylated makes it slightly soft and loss of all of it, makes it runny.

If you want to reach maximum THC levels, you will have to get it hotter than EtOH boiling temperatures. We use 250F for about 30 minutes, but determine the exact timing by watching the C02 bubbles exit.

The thing to remember, is that the same heat decarboxylating the oil by turning THCA to THC, is also converting THC to CBN. That happens closer to the same rate at medium range temperatures, but decarboxylation is faster as the temperature goes up.

Here is a dandy graph, courtesy of Jump 117, of the North country:

 

[inreplyavalon]

Hmm, I'm trying real hard to wrap my head around this. Seems i have been confused. I was under the impression that it may be preferable to keep the heat low if planning to vape or smoke the extract, and no loss of strength would occur either. The reason being to retain floral essences. Is the THC maximized the moment it is vaped from the high heat? Or is it always stronger if purged at a higher temp, as the graph seems to show?
I am confused as to the relationship between the THCA, THC, and CBD. My goal for now is to maximize the psychoactive effects and less so the relaxing ones. Or actually to have different extracts with differing properties. I have another batch cooking at 130f as we speak.
I hope to understand clearly as soon as possible, and also hope I am not wasting yours or anyones time with my too simple lack of understanding of chemistry..

Thanks again

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hmm, I'm trying real hard to wrap my head around this. Seems i have been confused. I was under the impression that it may be preferable to keep the heat low if planning to vape or smoke the extract, and no loss of strength would occur either. The reason being to retain floral essences. Is the THC maximized the moment it is vaped from the high heat? Or is it always stronger if purged at a higher temp, as the graph seems to show?
I am confused as to the relationship between the THCA, THC, and CBD. My goal for now is to maximize the psychoactive effects and less so the relaxing ones. Or actually to have different extracts with differing properties. I have another batch cooking at 130f as we speak.
I hope to understand clearly as soon as possible, and also hope I am not wasting yours or anyones time with my too simple lack of understanding of chemistry..

Thanks again

You can smoke or vape the oil in carboxylic acid or decarboxylated form. People usually prefer it in carboxylic acid form for vaporizing, because the THC will be higher and the CBN lower.

In addition, it will have retained more of the mono and sesquiterpenes, making it more floral and less hashy tasting.

Define loss of strength. The decarboxylation that allows the THC to pass the blood brain barrier, also makes it less heady and more sedative, because it also converts some of the existing THC to CBN. It isn't necessarily less potent, just does different things.

As you want to achieve the most head, the easiest trick to reliably retaining the extract in carboxylic acid shatter form, is to use just enough heat to keep the pool liquid and pulling a -29.5" Hg vacuum on it. We do that at 115F in a thin film and stop when the random sized solvent bubbles cease, leaving only the equally sized fizzy CO2 bubbles from decarboxylation.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Ok i think i comprehend enough, and i'm sure experimenting will help me understand more. Thanks for your asssistance and getting started. I was so enthusiastic that I went out and got an oil bubbler pipe with a titanium nail and oh my goodness... I am usually the lightweight that hits a battery powered vape, a little bit at a time a lot of the time. Well i took one monster rip off this thing and literally had to go walk around the forest. It was mildly psychedelic visually, and maybe the worst cotton mouth i have ever had. Strong meds, can do some serious good for those that need its medicinal effects.
After that i think i will let my next batch decarb for a bit and get a bit more balanced body-mind effect.
Cheers againfor all you do helping bring this sacred healer to the masses, Mr. Gray Wolf.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Thanks for the kind words in your original post!

It seems you got a little confused with decarboxylation and wanting a less stable "softer" consistency. When you have more oily/sappy texture with properly purged extract this is mostly due to the starting material being old and cured causing it to be partially decarboxylated or the temperatures during or after purging causing it to lower its viscosity. In doing this you also make the texture more oily, but you have boiled off most of the terpenes and flavonoids in doing so. I only decarb for oral use, I like to retain the most flavor in my extracts and in doing so keeps the cannabinoids in there carboxylic acid form which allows the extract to remain stiff and brittle.

If your having trouble dealing with he shatter texture, heat up your dabber before tinkin off dab, helps avoid shatter, from well shatterin lol.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

t.
Cheers againfor all you do helping bring this sacred healer to the masses, Mr. Gray Wolf.

Much agreed!:


OOOOOoooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm!

 

[inreplyavalon]

Howdy folks. I just finished my third round of QWET and am curious about a few things.

I currently purge in a slow cooker and keep the temps between 100-125. It did get up to 140 for a good fifteen minutes, but then i lowered it. I even turned it off entirely at one point, as it was bedtime. The next day i also noticed some contaminant that looked like either pieces of paper towel, or accumulated dust or something, so i gave the filtered unpurged liquid, another wash and strain and then purged it.
I have noticed that each of the three extractions i have done have gotten softer and stickier after being jarred. At first i wanted it less hard, but not i feel a true shatter(that will even keep its shatter form when jarred) is more desirable for my purposes of storing, medicating, and sharing. I just read through this thread again and it says that the lower the temp when purging, the harder more carboxylic the resulting extract will be. This last one only got above 120 or so for 15 minutes or so.
Why when its being jarred is it puddling in the bottom of the jar and getting sticky? Any way to harden up and get a less viscous material?

As an aside i did this last one with some fresh frozen trim and the post wash liquid, after a 2 minute wash, had an unmistakable green tint, but after the purge it was entirely amber with no hints of green.

This stuff is fascinating, and this oil is psychedelic.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Howdy folks. I just finished my third round of QWET and am curious about a few things.

I currently purge in a slow cooker and keep the temps between 100-125. It did get up to 140 for a good fifteen minutes, but then i lowered it. I even turned it off entirely at one point, as it was bedtime. The next day i also noticed some contaminant that looked like either pieces of paper towel, or accumulated dust or something, so i gave the filtered unpurged liquid, another wash and strain and then purged it.
I have noticed that each of the three extractions i have done have gotten softer and stickier after being jarred. At first i wanted it less hard, but not i feel a true shatter(that will even keep its shatter form when jarred) is more desirable for my purposes of storing, medicating, and sharing. I just read through this thread again and it says that the lower the temp when purging, the harder more carboxylic the resulting extract will be. This last one only got above 120 or so for 15 minutes or so.
Why when its being jarred is it puddling in the bottom of the jar and getting sticky? Any way to harden up and get a less viscous material?

As an aside i did this last one with some fresh frozen trim and the post wash liquid, after a 2 minute wash, had an unmistakable green tint, but after the purge it was entirely amber with no hints of green.

This stuff is fascinating, and this oil is psychedelic.

How thick a pool are you purging? Thin film is faster and more effective.

You will find it much easier to purge without softening the oil by decarboxylation, if you will use a vacuum chamber. We get consistent hard shatter at -29.5" Hg and 115F.

 

[inreplyavalon]

When you say how thick a pool, at what stage do you mean? The container when beginning the purge and all the solvent is still there, is probably 3 inches deep x 12 inches long x 6 inches wide. In the final evaporating hour or two, the film on the bottom is probably about a millimeter or two thick.
This last time, since i shut off the 125f heat so i could go to bed and then the next day turned it to about 110, the total purge time was close to 24 hours. took a while.
Been looking into some Vac Chambers. Read your DIY tutorial, nice of you to share. Also read the comments. I noticed the chambers on ebay seem not to have as thick a cover (1 1/2") as you recommend.
Do you think something like this would work to purge large amounts, like up to a lb of trim/flower?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/121092976722?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
the rabbit hole opened, and i dove head first in!

 

[Gray Wolf]

When you say how thick a pool, at what stage do you mean? The container when beginning the purge and all the solvent is still there, is probably 3 inches deep x 12 inches long x 6 inches wide. In the final evaporating hour or two, the film on the bottom is probably about a millimeter or two thick.
This last time, since i shut off the 125f heat so i could go to bed and then the next day turned it to about 110, the total purge time was close to 24 hours. took a while.
Been looking into some Vac Chambers. Read your DIY tutorial, nice of you to share. Also read the comments. I noticed the chambers on ebay seem not to have as thick a cover (1 1/2") as you recommend.
Do you think something like this would work to purge large amounts, like up to a lb of trim/flower?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/121092976722?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
the rabbit hole opened, and i dove head first in!

I was speaking of the pool of oil, after the solvent was mostly gone and you were trying to purge the balance. One mil is probably OK and two pushing it without a vacuum.

You might try starting with less in the evaporating plate, to thin out the end product.

125/140F for 24 hours is unlikely to give you shatter, as it will be partially decarboxylated.

It also shouldn't take 24 hours on the heat and it is important to read the bubbles so that you stop when the solvent is (mostly) gone and you are bubbling away CO2 and terpenes. I say mostly because there is still some left at ppm levels, but they will reduce further with airing.

Swirling it around by tilting the plate and rotating, before putting it back on the heat, will help speed things up, as will light spreading using a blade, but you want to spread the oil to let gas out of the oil, not stir air in.

The oil will naturally clump because of surface tension and you want to keep it spread out as thin as possible, so that it purges at the lowest possible heat.

When I see only C02 bubbles, I take it off the heat, cover it loosely to keep dust out and let it air out and harden for a day or so.

No one offers a commercial vacuum pot with a 1 1/2 Polycarbonate lid (that I'm aware of), and it is definitely the eloquent solution, because even with the deflection, the 1" cast acrylic lid would probably have lasted a long time.

In my personal opinion, 1/2" is pushing it starting right out of the gate and with much heat 1/2" is definitely too thin for long term use.

I would never design something out of polycarbonate or acrylic, that deflected that far under normal use. When you bend it back and forth, it induces high cyclic fatigue and it eventually fails.

 

[Capulator]

Hello,

I can't PM anyone yet so I have to reply to you this way..

You only need to add a cup of tea to your ezcloner. Don't add too much. If it smells bad, change the water out and start over. Shouldn't take long. Don't ever risk bad smells.

email me we can talk about it further.

email@ogbiowar.com

-Cap

 

[Scottish Research]

I made some of this a few days ago with fresh trim and some small buds. The material was fresh but frozen overnight. The ISO 91% was placed in the freezer as well.

I placed the wash in a pie dish and placed that on a non-stick skillet at 200F. It took about 2 hours for the ISO to evaporate.

I placed a little bit in my pax, and felt some sensation but not enough for me. Keep in mind that i've never smoked concentrates before.

So I placed the hash in a ceramic bowel / wrapped tight in foil and then cooked for 30 minutes at 250F.

Nothing! No feeling at all trying to smoke this!

I'll be honest, I'm going crazy trying to get high! Got TONS of stuff drying and almost ready to cure.

Not sure what to do. This decarb thing never works for me. I've tried 200, 225, 250, 300, and 325F's

Any thoughts?

I would like to then use this hash concentrate in a coconut oil to ingest.

Thanks guys!


R.Fortune

 

[Scottish Research]

Just made another batch using the oil bath method. The temps were off last time, they only reached about 127 F.

Today, I found a thermometer that works well enough. I got the temps up to the high 140's; the pie dish was vaping...

This round the liquid was fairly clear after the wash. I did ISO wash the weed for 30 seconds... Not nearly long enough!

When I went to scrape it, it was black and sticky... I'll freeze it first next time, before scraping. A couple of days ago, it came out black and hard as a rock.

The yield sucked big time! Really bad! I know that this was some sticky weed! mainly Mango and afghan haze. I did a rewash and got more color.

Just finished extraction, and I got TONS more resin to scrape.

It's much cleaner than my first effort.

R.Fortune