What is this def?

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Hey there everyone,

I posted a thread over in the infirmary but got little interest.

So I have 17 clones of 3 different strains (pineapple express, black domina, power kush) all exhibiting these issues.

Edges of the older leaves seem to be dying





So the history:

So these girls are all in 1 gal bags of coco. They were very healthy as clones, but turned a bit rough just recently.

The weather has gotten very cold just lately so I assumed this may have something to do with it?

Anyway, initially girls were getting EC 1.3 and PH 5.8 water, hand watered (Water 0.1, and Canna A+B at 2.5 mils per liter).
At first I suspected that it could be over ferting, so I flushed each bag of coco, initially the water was coming out at PH 6.2 so I flushed heavily till I got it down to 5.8. Then I fed them EC 0.8 PH 5.8 nutes.
Also to combat the cold I put sheets of polystyrene underneath (2X1" thick). They are under a 400 CMH and have a 150 mm centrifugal fan. The temps are not bad at all, and I run the lights 24 hrs so they dont get a very cold dark cycle (they are in a garage which gets up to 15 degrees celcius during the day, and down to 10 at night) temps in the tent tend to be reasonably stable at 25 degrees celcius.

Anyway since doing all the work to fix them, there has been no real sign of improvement.

I couldn't really understand a def as Im feeding them cann, but yeah, still have no idea.

Any help is much appreciated.

Link to original thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=259760

 

[rattlingdags]

Hiya Kiwi
Sorry to see your having problems with your girls. I just read through what you'd written in the other thread and its a shame that lifting the plants off the concrete wasn't the fix - would have been nice eh?!
I'm no expert myself by any means but just going from what you've said and seeing the photo's, your problem looks very much like what I had happen once I switched from soil to coco recently. I can't say of course that my fix will be a help to you but maybe food for thought.

Canna's nutes is also what I use and I found that if I didn't tweek it somewhat that my plants looked just like your girl. I'd mentally checked off environmental conditions, sneaky bugs
etc and so focused on my feeding and watering routine as that had to change somewhat from using soil.

Exact same strain of plants though - indica dominant Khandahar. Same water that starts off EC at 0.4. Used new Canna coco out of the bag.

For me the problem was a Phosphorus deficiency and the beginnings of a Mg def coupled with under feeding. I'd been feeding a little lighter than the chart suggested, trying not to over feed. I see the same blue green lower leaves in your pics.

I use canna's rhizotonic, A+B, cannazym, with House and Gardens Drip clean. To this I added Canna's Phosphorus (began at 1ml per Litre then down to 0.5ml)
and Magnesium @ .25ml per L.
I don't do a long veg so was full feeding every day at EC 1.6 - 1.7 until a bit of runoff (even though I was using drip clean at the lower rate I wanted the safe side). The girls boomed.
Once into flower I use the Phosphor for a week then stop but keep up with the Mg and the rest. The higher feeding during flowering and then the PK13/14 later keeps them all happy.

Don't know if any of this waffle will be of use, its hard when you don't see the plants in person and grow conditions are always different, but all the best and I hope something will work out for you.

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Gidday Rattling bro.

Yeah my initial suspicion was Phosphorous def. I read that this is often caused by wat soils (or in my case coco) and my coco does seem to stay damp no matter what, after I flushed etc the other day, I went in to water yesterday (like 2-3 days later) and each plant would only take 200mils of feed before it all started flowing out the bottom, so obviously they're just not drinking.

As I said, I lifted the bags up and slid 2 1"thick sheets of poly under there, but I think I may have to get my usual, saucers full of clay balls, and lift the pots up onto them to allow aeration underneath. Also I will go to the hydro shop soonish and get some perlite, and I'll pull all these plants out and rebag them with perlite/coco mix. I've never had these issues prior, but I think the cold snap over here has caused a bit of chaos.

I was really trying to have these girls ready for the switch this coming Tuesday, but that looks like it's not going to happen.

OH well, if I've learned one thing while growing, it's that you NEVER switch a plant until it's healthy!

 

[Greenlife1]

I have run into issues similar. I didnt read your other thread, but i know if that coco gets cool enough that will really make a difference on how fast they use food, and what nutes they are taking in. how long have they been in those 1 gallons? what was the ec on the runoff?

New growth looks good so thats good.

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Cheers GL1 bro.

Yeah the problem is that all the new growth looked good, and the problem started with older leaves, and is working it's way up.

They've been in the 1 gallons around 2 weeks or so.

Today I pulled them all out, broke most of the coco away, and repotted them in a 50/50 coco/perlite mix. Also I added 1" of a hydroton/perlite mixture to the bottom of the bags to help them drain.

The coco was definitely warm when I broke it all away, but I do think that when I attempted 18/6 the cold may have affected them. So anyway, with all that addressed they now have:
2" of polystyrene underneath to help root temps.
24 hours of light to eliminate a cold "night".
1" of clay balls at the bottom of the bag to assist with drainage.
50/50 perlite coco mix to assist with drainage.
They have been flushed heavily and the EC/PH run off was the same as what was going in 5.8PH/0.8EC.

There's no pests in there.

So if they don't recover now I will have a real head scratcher! Environmental conditions are nigh on optimal. Coco should be very well draining. Nutes are fine. There really should be nothing left that could be an issue.

In my experience Canna nutes do not result in nute deficiencies, and if you get them, there is something environmental to consider.

Also worth noting is that I use tap water, so I don't use cal mag, as a lot of RO water canna users use. Tap EC is 0.1-0.2.

Anyway, some pics of my busy morning:

Before hand, you can even see the algae growing on the coco:


The mix for the bottom of the bags, approximately 60% hydroton, 40% coarse perlite:


Half way through the job, talk about a mess:


Finished pic:


Now, I cross my fingers and wait, hoping for the best!

Take care everyone.

 

[nachoconqueso]

Every time I see something like that I think potassium. Check this thread and look at the potassium deficiency section. 5th picture down looks very similar. Let me know if you agree. I'm not sure any other deficiency produces coloration like that. I've never seen a P deficiency do that either. P def leaves have random brown patches that twist the leaves.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=231387

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Cheers bro, yeah definitely looks like a potassium deficiency.

As I say, I've never had def's with Canna, so I imagine it is environmental related. I'm crossing my fingers very tightly that what I have done will work. I was hoping to switch these girls this coming tuesday, but looks like they will need an extra week to recover, fingers crossed for that!

Again, thanks man. Looks bang on

 

[nachoconqueso]

No problem. Check out that thread for the nutes that lock out K as well as the ph range of K. Then measure your runoff. I'd put your nute regimen into a calculator to determine if you're getting too little or too much of something. Then you'll be able to fully assess your problem. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Well, I think I shall order a comfrey spray this week, as I have read that it can cure a potassium deficiency.

Like I say, I would like to see this issue rectify itself now that the environmental conditions are much better, but a spray should help speed up the recovery.

Again, thank you very much,

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Alright, gidday everyone, hope it's going great out there in the big wide world.

So....I have decided I will be putting up 24 hour photo's so I (and anyone else interested) can accurately gauge whether these girls are improving or not.

Like I say, I wanted to switch them on tuesday, not happening now, but desperate for next tuesday (9 days from now).

I will give it to them, they've coped remarkably well, when you think I pulled the whole base out, roots, coco, and all, then I broke most of the coco away, repotted them with coco/perlite. Normally when you disturb the roots that much they sag, and play sick for a while, but these girls kept on trooping.

So anyway, here are today's pics, they do look a little healthier, but that may be psychosomatic, so we'll see.

 

[nugglife]

Looks like you're locking out Potassium some how. 2.5mL per liter of Canna is a really strong dose for small veg plants and maybe you have too much salt built up in medium. Try 4mL-6mL per gallon and make sure pH is 5.6-5.8

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Cheers bro.

Yeah, I've always found these PE girls really heave feeders, but now I have dropped the EC back to 0.8. PH is always at 5.8.

Will take some update photo's today, just to see if there's any progress, my problem is that if I look at them every day, it's hard to see, but if I take photo's and put them up here I should get a better idea.

Got to spend the whole day today trimming some Black Widow's I've just pulled, house reaks, I think it's gonna be one of those days "Lock the front gate, and put the dog's out there to keep door to door types away!"

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Alright, so the girls have had a dramatic recovery in the last 2 days. I suspect I was over feeding them, but they are looking very good now. I have removed all the damaged leaves and they are all lush and green.

I decided to be impatient and go and switch them into budding tonight. They were destined for a 9 plant SOG and they were just getting to large to serve that purpose.

You can follow their progress here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5692474#post5692474

So here are pics, first yesterday, and then tonight:

 

[St3ve]

They definitely look better.. just make sure that you were getting good new growth from every plant before the flip and you should be good. I get the impatient part, but if they haven't fully recovered you'll just be more disappointed later.