Yeah, I'd love to play poker where I get dealt from a deck with mostly face cards.
(You can make many hands of high quality with half a deck, especially when you stack it!)
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Everybody a breeder ?
- Thread starter silverhazefiend
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Yeah, I'd love to play poker where I get dealt from a deck with mostly face cards.
(You can make many hands of high quality with half a deck, especially when you stack it!)
Ok, Tom.
How would you work two separate female lines together?
Ie, I have an OG that has the most amazing cedar/sandalwood scent, and a super stocky super frosty but bland heavy yielding strain.
Would you proceed as you did using one line, but at the end take the two spectacular females(after hopefully stabilizing intended traits, supposing they can be) from separate lines and cross them to see combining ability and work from there to see if you could get the cedar smell on the stocky plant with reliability?
How would you work two separate female lines together?
Ie, I have an OG that has the most amazing cedar/sandalwood scent, and a super stocky super frosty but bland heavy yielding strain.
Would you proceed as you did using one line, but at the end take the two spectacular females(after hopefully stabilizing intended traits, supposing they can be) from separate lines and cross them to see combining ability and work from there to see if you could get the cedar smell on the stocky plant with reliability?
meltybubble
Member
The Toa of Pooh would be a great place to start for alot here.jk
This thread has helped me understand more about breeding/genetics and people in general.
While learning never stops it can come on in leaps and bounds if the desire to learn is there.
peace.
This thread has helped me understand more about breeding/genetics and people in general.
While learning never stops it can come on in leaps and bounds if the desire to learn is there.
peace.
OH I LOVE THIS POST haha,im feeling ya buddy!
OH I LOVE THIS POST haha,im feeling ya buddy!
Right on bro,it is an art to observe and choose......we have no magic though.
the plants do!
NOW I HAVE TO GO BACK AN READ 10-15 pages again aaaaaaaaaah?????
im tryin..
OH I LOVE THIS POST haha,im feeling ya buddy!
The creation of the breeder is art, the route to the creation is science and the fertilisation itself is just magic.
Keep on growing
Right on bro,it is an art to observe and choose......we have no magic though.
the plants do!
NOW I HAVE TO GO BACK AN READ 10-15 pages again aaaaaaaaaah?????
im tryin..
rhinoman 1
Active member
that might be true but you yer not gona find great in there.
Yeah sorry Lou someone should have told you it was just a bunch of babble lol.
Hey TA,
You say lines, but then you say "an OG" coupled with a "super frosty heavy yielding strain... Is the OG an individual or a "strain", is the super frosty etc really a strain too are key questions, that is to ask, does either line breed true for these traits you covet. If not, then the project would benefit from some work imo yes. Perhaps not as much as outlined earlier in the pedigree method, but certainly some S1 progeny testing coupled with pairwise cross testing so as to assure you end up with something as close to what you're looking for as is possible.
Many OG's breed relatively true for many traits, and work well in outcrosses due to that. If you are not sure whether or not the one in question does, selfing it and observing it's progeny will tell you what you need to know in that regard. If it does, great, if not, then it is likely that some of it's S1 progeny will. All this should be determined before the outcross, that is making sure the parental candidates to be tested are relatively prepotent in their ability to pass on said traits.
It's this heavy yielding super frosty strain where you will likely run into more trouble, at least I have never seen one that performs with any reliability because yield is such a complex trait, throw in trichome field density and it becomes moreso. So again a way we can determine this is by selfing individuals, and observing their progeny.
By collecting parents from both lines we know breed relatively true for the traits of interest (by observing their selfed progeny), then testing pairwise crosses among those parental candidates, we will have taken advantage of what we know about the science, and come out leaps and bounds ahead of someone selecting parents by way of intuition etc the vast majority of the time and then some. -T
Hey TA,
You say lines, but then you say "an OG" coupled with a "super frosty heavy yielding strain... Is the OG an individual or a "strain", is the super frosty etc really a strain too are key questions, that is to ask, does either line breed true for these traits you covet. If not, then the project would benefit from some work imo yes. Perhaps not as much as outlined earlier in the pedigree method, but certainly some S1 progeny testing coupled with pairwise cross testing so as to assure you end up with something as close to what you're looking for as is possible.
Many OG's breed relatively true for many traits, and work well in outcrosses due to that. If you are not sure whether or not the one in question does, selfing it and observing it's progeny will tell you what you need to know in that regard. If it does, great, if not, then it is likely that some of it's S1 progeny will. All this should be determined before the outcross, that is making sure the parental candidates to be tested are relatively prepotent in their ability to pass on said traits.
It's this heavy yielding super frosty strain where you will likely run into more trouble, at least I have never seen one that performs with any reliability because yield is such a complex trait, throw in trichome field density and it becomes moreso. So again a way we can determine this is by selfing individuals, and observing their progeny.
By collecting parents from both lines we know breed relatively true for the traits of interest (by observing their selfed progeny), then testing pairwise crosses among those parental candidates, we will have taken advantage of what we know about the science, and come out leaps and bounds ahead of someone selecting parents by way of intuition etc the vast majority of the time and then some. -T
I wasn't very clear, Im not versed in all the terminology.
Yes the OG is an individual, I'm not sure of its lineage, or if it breeds true for anything as I haven't taken the time to reverse it yet. Same story with the other plant.
So if I find that the original mom doesn't, when reversed initially, show to breed true for the aroma/taste profile, then one of her s1 progeny that displays the trait will?
Iow, if the mom doesn't display true breeding tendencies in a reversal, then test one of the s1 progeny(that displays desired traits) for homozygosity.
So, it may not necessarily breed true for trichrome density or "yield", and when I say yield it's a bit of a misnomer, I mean more that it yields well for its bushy low stretch tendencies, but if the progeny of a reversal show a tendency towards reproducing those traits, it(the s1 that displays dseired traits) might be worth trying in an outcrossing to the stabilized OG?
Thanks.
CHillTowneGenes
Member
okay, im down with the whole notion, but in my head ive come across an anomaly, when you use a pure sativa mother crossed to a pure indica male, when you stamen-it the offspring, you will get a sativa and indica so how do you go about seeing double recessive or double dominant genes in such cases, or would the tests be conducted on the parents to insure one or the other? my apologies if the question has been spoken on prior to this post, I don't remember...
frito bandito
Member
I'll do you one better.....how bout I post up a torrent of all these breeding books that have been mentioned here? I have already downloaded most of em plus a few other good ones not mentioned. I would appreciate it if someone could get all the suggestions together into a list and/or add their own suggestions of good breeding books or others that would be useful (e.g. Botany of Desire) so I can get em all downloaded and put together in one place for others to download.
since you guys are having fun talking about breeding and no one even seemed to look at my thread but one guy, ill ask my stupid questions in here.
Nunsacred
Active member
It might be misleading to choose a parent for a hybrid on the basis of its self-cross behaviour.
Trait penetrance is more complex than presence of a parental allele.
DNA markers are fallible for many reasons.
They might be a hindrance rather than a help, until we move on to RNA-protein studies and work backwards. That's where the phenotype is controlled.
Currently that's beyond our reach except crude snapshots, and we need noninvasive real time mapping of it showing response to stresses, to really get anywhere in understanding trait penetrance and how it relates to DNA seq.
I reckon by the time we can analyse this stuff properly we'll be using a plant genome vector anyway and no commercial breeder will be using native genotypes anymore.
Trait penetrance is more complex than presence of a parental allele.
DNA markers are fallible for many reasons.
They might be a hindrance rather than a help, until we move on to RNA-protein studies and work backwards. That's where the phenotype is controlled.
Currently that's beyond our reach except crude snapshots, and we need noninvasive real time mapping of it showing response to stresses, to really get anywhere in understanding trait penetrance and how it relates to DNA seq.
I reckon by the time we can analyse this stuff properly we'll be using a plant genome vector anyway and no commercial breeder will be using native genotypes anymore.
Hence the term candidates and the testing of pairwise crosses among them. I'll say this, if a parental candidate segregates all over the place upon selfing, then good luck with it bringing any predictability as a parent in a single-cross hybrid.
In other words, not misleading imo, and an outstanding method to narrow a population down to the best possible candidates before further testing be that the top-cross route or proceeding directly to the testing of specific combinations.
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G
gloryoskie
Self the prospects and choose the ones that produce the most
individuals similar to the female parent. Right?
individuals similar to the female parent. Right?
Heyya Tom you're a hard guy to get ahold of it seems. This is a bit off topic but would like to know your thoughts on making S1's of this haze acid pheno for all of us to enjoy. You've also been ignoring everyone who asks about the North Indian. So what gives?
Gerard,
My thoughts on making an S1 of haze are that I'm too busy with other projects currently. It's a complex trait all that is added up to how and individual smokes and it would require a lot more than just selfing an outstanding Haze phenotype. What it would require is the selfing of many outstanding Haze phenotypes, observing all of their progenies, then repeating with the one/s that proved most homozygous for that very complex trait.
The North India I will get out there in time, I still haven't even germination tested it I just did the regeneration of stock and put them away. I'll likely wait until I have other projects complete and send them all in together.
My thoughts on making an S1 of haze are that I'm too busy with other projects currently. It's a complex trait all that is added up to how and individual smokes and it would require a lot more than just selfing an outstanding Haze phenotype. What it would require is the selfing of many outstanding Haze phenotypes, observing all of their progenies, then repeating with the one/s that proved most homozygous for that very complex trait.
The North India I will get out there in time, I still haven't even germination tested it I just did the regeneration of stock and put them away. I'll likely wait until I have other projects complete and send them all in together.
... but back to Allard-
"Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids"
The selfing of candidates is nothing more than a genotype test - a view into the genetic make-up of the plants, those that "produce the most individuals similar to the female parent" are most homozygous and therefore of higher breeding worth because they are more prepotent (tend to pass these traits on to their offspring).
The top crossing he speaks of to determine those with good GCA would be then if you took all of your most homozygous lines/individuals and crossed them all out to a known heterozygous line/individual (the top cross parent) and observed the progenies. The idea being that those (homozygous lines/individuals) that cross well to both A and a (in the heterozygous line/individuals), will tend to be the best candidates to test against many other lines as well.
I can't imagine many folk here bothering with all that, but bothering with seeking out your most homozygous candidates before testing specific combinations, or using them as recurrent parents in a backcrossing scheme, etc etc, is most definitely worth you time and effort imo. -T
"Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids"
The selfing of candidates is nothing more than a genotype test - a view into the genetic make-up of the plants, those that "produce the most individuals similar to the female parent" are most homozygous and therefore of higher breeding worth because they are more prepotent (tend to pass these traits on to their offspring).
The top crossing he speaks of to determine those with good GCA would be then if you took all of your most homozygous lines/individuals and crossed them all out to a known heterozygous line/individual (the top cross parent) and observed the progenies. The idea being that those (homozygous lines/individuals) that cross well to both A and a (in the heterozygous line/individuals), will tend to be the best candidates to test against many other lines as well.
I can't imagine many folk here bothering with all that, but bothering with seeking out your most homozygous candidates before testing specific combinations, or using them as recurrent parents in a backcrossing scheme, etc etc, is most definitely worth you time and effort imo. -T
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