Everybody a breeder ?

[Infinitesimal]

Line breeding is selfing

Full-sib is mating brothers and sisters.

Half-sib is mating half-brothers/sisters. NLxBB and NLxSk.

OK, thanks, that make a lot more sense then... I don't know why I thought half sib was only half the females.... I need to get some sleep ASAP! LOL

 

[Tom Hill]

Yes Infinitesimal, same page. Line selection would be where we did the same thing but did not also practice individual selection within the families. It is common among plants that self without our help, then you would just bulk the seed from that plot and repeat. Pedigree selection, not only allows for individual selection from within these separate families, but it also adapts/modifies well to the subject at hand (drug cannabis) whose default mode of reproduction falls outside of selfing.

Half-sib (in this case) means selecting seed from the best females after being exposed to open-pollination from all around her etc.

Full-sib means tracking many 1:1 (male/female full sib) parings then selecting the best from those, which is a royal pain in the ass to do on any kind of proper scale. It would involve bagging many male/female flower clusters in a row-to situation and just doesn't make much sense to me at all, not when more efficient methods are available. Ie what breeders here commonly call full-sib selection (1:1 out of a few) is a far cry from how it is practiced in reality by pros.

Line-selection (and the pedigree method is a derivative of that). Remember S3=F8 +/- that we would obtain in

Full-sib selection.

Then Half-sib selection.

^^ in order of efficiency.

-T

 

[pip313]

Thanks tom hill for the explanation .

 

[Jbomber79]

Tom no disrespect but you should be happy people are producing poo this kinda seals your deal doesn't it? It's like the worse they get the better it makes you look? Just my perspective

 

[7 Willows]

Logic works in theory, but playing to emotions with salesmanship wins in practice.

 

[Weird]

Infinitesimal thank you finally someone touched on it, twice now. To the average customer, the value of that pack of seeds lies in the mean phenotypic value, which will vary greatly from offering to offering based on the genes of the parents and the method utilized. The easiest way to get that average to rise, is via the traditional single-cross hybrid route.

I don't know if I agree this is what all customers want. What if the strain is based on a specific phenotype/chemical phenotype such as is the case with uk cheese? Searching through stock for phenotypes seems to be more interesting to those who breed. I think people want to find the chemical phenotype/physical phenotype that drew them to the strain in the first place.

I don't think you will change a customers perspective on what they want. I think breeders would be better off making their seed packs big enough to ensure there will be fair odds of finding what they are offering. Perhaps this would help breeders guarantee what they think will be fair odds for the money.

 

[xmobotx]

i will say that after digesting Tom's perspective here it is a paradigm shift and you see the claims from 'breeders' {as ref'd above thanks infinitesimal} in an entirely different light

that isnt to say that it might not be a good idea to buy someone's genetics so much as to recognize the caveat that it is unlikely to meet expectations dictated by 'hype'

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I don't know if I agree this is what all customers want. What if the strain is based on a specific phenotype/chemical phenotype such as is the case with uk cheese? Searching through stock for phenotypes seems to be more interesting to those who breed. I think people want to find the chemical phenotype/physical phenotype that drew them to the strain in the first place.

I don't think you will change a customers perspective on what they want. I think breeders would be better off making their seed packs big enough to ensure there will be fair odds of finding what they are offering. Perhaps this would help breeders guarantee what they think will be fair odds for the money.

You're saying the same thing as Tom. He said the best way to get that is a single-cross hybrid which reduces the variance of the mean phenotypic value.

ie, everything in the pack is Aa if you crossed AA x aa. There isn't much variance in the offspring and you take advantage of heterosis.

 

[Tom Hill]

I don't know if I agree this is what all customers want. What if the strain is based on a specific phenotype/chemical phenotype such as is the case with uk cheese? Searching through stock for phenotypes seems to be more interesting to those who breed. I think people want to find the chemical phenotype/physical phenotype that drew them to the strain in the first place.

and that's why I didn't fucking say all customers did i haha. You good with my 5% spanking his, I got you covered bro, you need to feel like you got your moneys worth from 10 seed, maybe you better go to him, regarding my haze line .

 

[Weird]

There is also one huge issue I have here. I dont have the issues everyone else has in their seed runs. That regardless of were I get the stock from the progeny aren''t so far from the parents I am dissapointed with my results. So I have an issue with what people are using for the qualification of success or failure.

Let me ask anyone who has ever bought or run any beans and were disappointing. Did you run the same plants more than once to make sure it waans't you. Becaus I did that for years until I figured out how to get plants consistently happy. My first few breeding attempts did not go as planned and I did have some SERIOUS hermie issues. I never put that on the plant I put it on my process.

I never started to really judge what I grew until I felt I was growing well enough to feel I was getting a plant to full potential.

This is another huge disconnect because seeds don't grow themselves but most people simply want pot, and this will be majority of the new customer in legal markets. If they had the passion we have to grow they would be doing it regardless of legality.

I understand it is not a breeders job to teach them to grow, but if you really look at why a person spends money on a seed its for the plant not the seed.

Maybe seed vendors should give enough seed and an instruction sheet that details what at the standards the seed be grown under to get the desired results. This way when someone complains at least you have done everything you could to prevent it before and after the sale.

 

[Tom Hill]

IE, I can't give you that and still maintain my original goal at the same time, nor will I sacrifice certain goals to make everybody happy on the quick. You pick up a book, apply what you learn, then come back and tell me all about it brother.

 

[Tom Hill]

There is also one huge issue I have here. I dont have the issues everyone else has in their seed runs. That regardless of were I get the stock from the progeny aren''t so far from the parents I am dissapointed with my results.

Yeah, the technical term for that is "cheap date" hehe.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

It checks out, I looked at the back of some pepper packs I bought and they said "You don't like my peppers? Well you probably overwatered them!". I see they really covered their bases.

 

[Tom Hill]

in trying to place myself in others' shoes, I suppose if I thought all cannabis was fine I'd too see no absolute reason or true value in proven scientific breeding methods.

 

[Jbomber79]

Strange dynamic here.

 

[Weird]

You're saying the same thing as Tom. He said the best way to get that is a single-cross hybrid which reduces the variance of the mean phenotypic value.

ie, everything in the pack is Aa if you crossed AA x aa. There isn't much variance in the offspring and you take advantage of heterosis.

Tom said people want a variety of phenotypes, in the case of cheese and the customer who has smoked it and looks at a seed pack do they want phenotype variety or a particular phenotype

I never argued the route to get there, it is not necessary.

 

[Tom Hill]

Tom said people want a variety of phenotypes,

reference please....

 

[frito bandito]

I do laugh at people slagging of Dj short and the price of his seeds, years of work and it's stood the test of time, and what it passes on is quality...

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on our definition of "quality."

as far withstanding the test of time.....you are aware the current discussion is about how abysmally shitty the current cannabis breeding situation is? clearly "standing the test of time" does not carry anywhere near the same meaning here as it would if the world was full of excellent cannabis strains.

yes there are problems with mutants and intersexual expression, that said his stock one of the most out crossed resource, why is that?

lol. because incrossing it is a waste of fucking time? it's already been incrossed so damn much and in so many crazy ways, which is why literally 80% of the plants in a given pack of DJ Short seeds are absolute shit.

how many people do you see out there releasing dj short F2s? nobody? i wonder why that is?

i mean you are aware of the story of how all his strains started, right? he got some a tiny bit of bagseed decades back, obviously from some afghan line which had already been bred over generations for the traits in question. dj short the pollen chucker then sought to multiply that seed by inbreeding and backcrossing to infinity and beyond, and in the process basically raped the chromosome of those plants to death. that shaky foundation has been the basis for ALL "his" strains he has created....ALL of which give us those same crazy mutants in ridiculously high proportion to "good" plants.

dj short is a one trick pony, a pollen chucker extraordinaire. the fact that people actually consider him a good breeder is nothing more than a testament to widespread ignorance.

Hell why did Rez want to cross to Dj's clones??????

to rescue the few good genes from their sad, mutated lineage, by combining them with another line that is not 98% garbage?

dont take my word for it, im just a guy growing out a pack of f13 f2s right now, literally 90% of which are horribly mutated. its not the grow environment so dont be trying to blame the grower as usual. 100% of all my other plants are happy and healthy. with these, ugly goes straight to the bone. yeah im sure ill eventually find a good keeper out of one of these 60+ seeds. and yeah, you bet im gonna outcross it. and then i'll spend years inbreeding that line for many generations trying to get out all the fucked up mutants. such is life.

 

[Tom Hill]

Weird maybe you just better pass the microphone to hempy...

 

[Weird]

and that's why I didn't fucking say all customers did i haha. You good with my 5% spanking his, I got you covered bro, you need to feel like you got your moneys worth from 10 seed, maybe you better go to him, regarding my haze line .

Tom, you are slandering me based on misinterpretation again and it is inappropriate. I am saying your statement isn't accurate because some people don't want variety in a seed pack. It is not a slight against your person. You should lighten up.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is how a business would solve this. They work problem solution models because they are most effective.

The problem is X

The proposed solution is Y.

So arguing points in logical matters to prove a point only work if A) you propose a solution B) your solution pans out in equations where the problem is X, that is all scenarios[/FONT]