Storage of Shatter-Wax-Oil etc

[lloyd_christmas]

oh by the way if it is shatter, it is not fully purged. there is a lot of butane in there still. shatter looks cool but is not purged right.

Thats definitely not true at all. In fact I would say more often than not the opposite is true. All the best vac purged bho I've had has been shatter. I very much prefer dabbing shatter over wax/budder.

Jar into fridge or freezer seems to slow down waxing. Some strains seem more prone to waxing.

 

[Kush Technician]

Everyone should know that hash can store much longer if it is compressed. To say that kief will store better than shatter goes completely against logic. BHO has much less surface area. Please, please for the sake of logic, smoke some more, lol.

And shatter would not be shatter if it were not fully purged. Just sayin

 

[VirginHarvester]

The Tetra Labs gold turn darker and eventually amber although the amber I have seen happen in an open cap. The darker color is happening in new caps in the containers. They are defnitely darker. I do not know if the quality/potency is changed at all.


Anyone else have this, er, change ( not sure if it's an issue yet, again would someone from Tetra Labs please comment? ) with not just Tetra but other light colored oils?

Tudo, are you saying your PG started amber/gold and turned darker? I know they released a darker version that has more lemonine(?) in the mix so it's more amber. The older version has a gold color, the newer more amber. I don't believe I'm seeing that in my Gold caplets.

Are you Brazilian by chance?

All the best vac purged bho I've had has been shatter. I very much prefer dabbing shatter over wax/budder.

I have a hard time finding collectives with BTs that know which of their waxes are actually really clean, so I end up guessing and using my best judgment. But I sometimes still taste butane when I medicate. I'm seeing more shatters on the menus. Is it just cleaner? If so, I'm going to be donating for the shatter going forward, even if a little more expensive.

I'm seeing wax/budder called "RAW" show up on some menus. I don't know if that's a company mass producing or a style/preparation. Anyone know?

 

[midwestHIGHS]

oh by the way if it is shatter, it is not fully purged. there is a lot of butane in there still. shatter looks cool but is not purged right.

Ah ya, I would say the complete opposite, who ever told this has no idea what they're talking about.

Properly purged bho under deep vacuum, constant heat and in as thin as film as possibly always yields shatter/sap. Improper purging like whipping, blasting into water, thick film purging under vacuum with inconsistent temperatures, purging under vacuum with not enough heat. Usually yields opaqe wax/budder/honeycomb.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Nobody told me this I fucking know what I'm talking about. I make an ounce a week now for a long ass time, and it is purged 100 percent, and goes for retail at 100 a gram. I am speaking from experience and chemistry. SCIENTIFIC FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your shatter will continue to bubble if you put it on the heat. that is butane. You are correct about the purging process. I use a very very thin layer and a consistent heat for 12 hours.

If you stop the purge early you get glass. This can not be fully purged. THIS IS FACT!

The next stage that forms is the budder/wax/honeycomb. This can be fully purged but you have to be perfect, and stop it at the right time. to soon and it contains about 2 percent butane. Too far and you take it to the next state. You leave it here when you want to keep a more clear and heady state that should not make you pass out.

the next state is the true oil state. after 13 hours of low heat Decarboxylation you have released all the carbon molecules and you have almost pure cannabinoids. This is is best medicine. It stops cancer in it's tracks. It is clear and can not be made solid with out freezing.

Thats definitely not true at all. In fact I would say more often than not the opposite is true. All the best vac purged bho I've had has been shatter. I very much prefer dabbing shatter over wax/budder.

Jar into fridge or freezer seems to slow down waxing. Some strains seem more prone to waxing.

oh great, another person basing their opinion off something that is not chemistry. when you put your "glass" shit, in the feezer you are slowing down butane evaporation preventing it from reaching it's next state which is wax/budder. If you do this over time and not with heat, you will not get a full purge. that is why you dont like it.

AGAIN I BASING WHAT I AM SAYING OFF OF ACTUAL CHEMISTRY AND EXPERIENCE WITH THAT CHEMICAL PROCESS AND NOT ANY OPINION. THIS IS SCIENTIFIC FACT AND ARGUING WITH ME IS WASTING YOUR TIME BECAUSE YOUR NOT GOING TO CHANGE SCIENTIFIC FACT!

oh and if you dont believe me I have about ten or 15 grams of shatter just sitting in my cupboard that I can show you with. I'll take it all the way to oil state.

 

[OhighO]

The best way would be in a jar sealed with and oxygen absorber...

 

[midwestHIGHS]

I am speaking from experience as well and from extensive research, do you even use negative pressure in conjuction of that consistent heat and thin film? Also the only reason a single solvent extract turns waxy/buddery is because the inactive plant waxes have formed wax hydrates and thus creating nucleation points for the crystalline laden to form.

This does NOT mean it is more purged than shatter, saying wax/budder is the end all state for fully purged single solvent extracts couldn't be more wrong.

Sorry to say, but experience don't mean much I've come to notice, a fellow on here said he had been making oil for 5 years blasting directly into water and couldn't understand why one would not want to purge like this.

Absolute amber which is bho that has been winterized with a polar solvent such as ethanol to remove plant waxes, lipids and fats never waxes up like a improperly purged single solvent extract and always stays clear translucent.

lol at knowing it contains 2% butane at the right point. Do you have your oil tested for residual solvent at various stages of purging?

I have been making decarboxylated absolutes and qwet consumed with 1:1 ratio of coconut oil in capsules for years. It also doesn't take 13hrs to fully decarboxylate oil, my inactive oil is fully decarboxylated within 30 minutes at temperatures of around 250F as I watch the co2 and h2o bubbles form and release. Decarboxylation of a raw bho does not cause it to become almost pure cannabinoids all your doing is activating the cannabinoids that are in their carboxylic acid form, which happens when we vaporize, smoke or heat to said amount time and temp. Your raw bho still contains about 5-20% inactive plant waxes, lipids and fat.

A low wax content single solvent extract produced utilizing extremely cold temperatures to lower the amount of contaminates picked up, properly purged under vacuum, thin film, and consistent heat, bubbles until there is no reaction, almost always produces pristine shatter/sap. Like I said before many many improper purging techniques produces wax.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Everyone is wrong and your right, because of your scientific facts, well maybe if talked half as scientific as you claim, you mite catch my attention.

Please enlighten me on the scientific facts behind your reasoning, I would love to hear them.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I am speaking from experience as well and from extensive research, do you even use negative pressure in conjuction of that consistent heat and thin film? Also the only reason a single solvent extract turns waxy/buddery is because the inactive plant waxes have formed wax hydrates and thus creating nucleation points for the crystalline laden to form.

This does NOT mean it is more purged that shatter, saying wax/budder is the end all state for fully purged single solvent extracts couldn't be more wrong.

Sorry to say, but experience don't mean much I've come to notice, I fellow on here said he had been making oil for 5 years blasting directly into water and couldn't understand why one would not want to purge like this.

Absolute amber which is bho that has been winterized with a polar solvent such as ethanol to remove plant waxes, lipids and fats never waxes up like a improperly purged single solvent extract and always stays clear translucent.

lol at knowing it contains 2% butane at the right point. do you have your oil tested for residual solvent at various stages of purging?

I have been making decarboxylated absolutes and qwet consumed with 1:1 ratio of coconut oil in capsules for ever. It also doesn't take 13hrs to fully decarboxylate oil, my inactive oil is fully decarboxylated within 30 minutes at temperatures of around 250F and watch the co2 and h2o bubbles form and release. Decarboxylation a raw bho does not cause it to become almost pure cannabinoids all your doing is activating the cannabinoids that are in their carboxylic acid form, which happens when we vaporize, smoke or heat for said amount time and temp. Your raw bho still contains about 5-20% inactive plant waxes, lipids and fat.

A low wax content single solvent extract produced utilizing extremely cold temperatures to lower the amount of contaminates picked up, properly purged under vacuum, thin film, and consistent heat, bubbles until there is no reaction, almost always produces pristine shatter/sap. Like I said before many many improper purging techniques produces wax.

well I will do you a little respect and not call you an idiot, but you are an ass hole, so STFU and read the whole post this time

uhhh I didnt say that budder is the end all state, you just stopped reading my post mid way through because you are a genius apparently. If you actually read my post I think you would realize you are getting mixed up over the word shatter not the actual purity of your oil or your scientific knowledge.

so, ok good you get the scientific process of decarbing. I thought I had put it in lamens terms for you. Also I know it can be fully done in 30 minutes, but if you leave it up to 13 hours you do get everything activated and this is better medicine. also I do it at at 90 to 120 after 30 minutes not 250. Otherwise I would ruin it. also yes when you are activating it you are removing the molecules by turning them to gass, and removing a chemical bond that keeps it from being active in the first place. that part is just basic shit.

also i know it is not pure that is why I said ALMOST pure. again you didnt really read what I said.

further more if you are calling the final oil stage shatter you are wrong in what you are calling it. Shatter is just a made up term.

Would you like me to do a step by step instructional for you? Then I will show you me taking from a glassy form, to a buddery form, to an oil for that is much like a sap, but by no means is it that solid sticky bullshit that most noobs call shatter, just because it is still clear and hardens. I will believe that your's is not this, and it is true oil, when you show me.

also I bet if you made the budder right you would see the differnce. bad budder and bad shatter stick to your fingers. Done right they dont.

In my house right now I have shatter, budder, oil, and winterized oil that the final waxes have been cleaned out of. I can make them all.

The dumbass that purges with water for 5 years is just that. those are the people making unpurged oils and calling it shatter 99 percent of the time. That is why when people tell me they have solid clear oil and callit shatter I tell them to put it back on the heat. if i bubbles after it turns back to liquid you did it wrong. If it doesnt then maybe you did it right. You dont even need a vaccum purge. you just have to understand the chemistry behind butane, just one chemical compound, It is not that much to know.

Also your a little bitch for down rating my other post with out even reading the whole thing because if you did read it you would have never bothered to post in argument.

 

[Infinitesimal]

sup midwest,

I very much understand that the waxy cuticle of the trichome head helps protect the resins within, and why drysift would store better than bubble, because to properly dry ice water hash one will rupture some trichome heads trying to get it into a fine consistency to dry evenly. Also when making oil the the waxy cuticule is extracted and mixed with the resins within, I understand why one would believe this to cause it to degrade fast, but this doesn't seem to be the case with hard brittle oil.

My point was I watch the co2 and h2o bubbles form and release during decarboxylation to tell me when most of the thca has converted into thc if this were the case during storage I would assume the same reaction would take place, but in proper conditions it does not. Hard brittle absolute amber stays the same with no bubbles forming or changes in texture/color in proper storing conditions for over a few months.

I have been thinking of this a little bit, I understand what you are saying... and you may be right about well made shatter slowing down the decarb process, since evaporation is relative to temp/barometric pressure... the shatter may be able to stay in it carboxylic acid form longer due to it being hard thereby increasing its internal pressure and trapping the Co2 in the shatter...

but...

I was referring to degradation by way of O2 and light (not time/temp/pressure)... and I am not sure if simply keeping THC in its acid form (keeping it from decarboxylating) will preserve the THC indefinitely... I don't know that THCa must decarb to THC before it can breakdown into other molecules?

I'm speaking in terms of oil as thats what the op had mentioned, not mechanically extracted resins. I havent found any info relating to THCA degrading into CBNA can you possibly provide a link to this information.

oh I know... I was only using the mechanical hash methods to compare and contrast the degradation process to that of oil...

Honestly, man, I can't remember where I read that... probably in RC Clarkes Hashish (large book, so not sure off the top of my head)... and it is even possible that I am just wrong... but I do highly doubt that THCa must decarb to THC, before it can be oxidized and or degraded by light into other cannabinoids... as I know that THC does degrade right on the plant from the daily exposure to intense light (think amber trichome heads)... and typically there is very little to no active THC in non heated cannabis and hashish, most often when samples are tested the vast, vast, majority of the THC present in the sample are THCa... so somehow the THCa is converting into other molecules without decarboxylating first... or so it would seem

that tells me that light and oxygen are degrading the THC without decarboxylating it into THC first (given the minuscule amounts of active THC found in the majority of lab test samples I have seen)... but again I may also be wrong about this... maybe someone who runs a lab or one of the hash masters can chime in at some point and clear it up a little more...

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

doing pictorial now. will show you bubbling unpurged shatter get turned to budder then get turned to oil.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Actually the fellow was calling it wax, because it was opaque buddery waxy texture full of moisture and butane, it was not a clear shatter. Blasting into water insures a waxy consistency.

Shatter is just a term that most understand as translucent, clear solvent extracted cannabis oil that is firm and brittle. I figured most would understand that, as it is quite common term for this texture and would be shorter than saying translucent butane extracted cannabis oil with cannabinoids in their carboxylic acid form.

Oh I read your posts and my reply to your decarboxylation creating an "almost pure" still stands it doesn't create a more pure product than it was originally. I follow the graph provided by jump and grey wolf along with the co2 and h2o bubbles that form during decarboxylation. Decarboxylating at anything less than 250f is a waste of time.
I don't seem to have mixed up anything, you claimed shatter what most know as a clear translucent brittle solvent extracted oil as under purged or full of solvent and that wax/budder is fully purged or properly made.

I would also like to add that I have made very tasty stinky wax, I still prefer to only consume absolute shatters, single solvent extracts that have waxed up reek havoc on my lungs making it feel like they are coated in glue.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

http://delta9technologies.com/cannabinoids#/cannabinoids/

here is a link that explains some things about cannabinoids but I dont think it gets into what each compound degrades into fully.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Actually the fellow was calling it wax, because it was opaque buddery waxy texture full of moisture and butane, it was not a clear shatter. Blasting into water insures a waxy consistency.

Shatter is just a term that most understand as translucent, clear solvent extracted cannabis oil that is firm and brittle. I figured most would understand that, as it is quite common term for this texture and would be shorter than saying translucent butane extracted cannabis oil with cannabinoids in their carboxylic acid form.

Oh I read your posts and my reply to your decarboxylation creating an "almost pure" still stands it doesn't create a more pure product than it was originally. I follow the graph provided by jump and grey wolf along with the co2 and h2o bubbles that form during decarboxylation. Decarboxylating at anything less than 250f is a waste of time.
I don't seem to have mixed up anything, you claimed shatter what most know as a clear translucent brittle solvent extracted oil as under purged or full of solvent and that wax/budder is fully purged or properly made.

I would also like to add that I have made very tasty stinky wax, I still prefer to only consume absolute shatters, single solvent extracts that have waxed up reek havoc on my lungs making it feel like they are coated in glue.

lol. I take it back your not an ass hole or anything, you just dont pick up on things in reading. Perhaps my terminology is not matching yours. I am doing a pictorial because I figure that will explain things better. you maybe reading my post, but you are not reading them well.

again. I never claimed all budder is fully purged. I said if done right you can fully purge it. I will show you the difference momentarily. It will not make you cough. It is very very smooth.

again. 99 percent of the time when people hand me clear shatter I put it back on heat and it clearly needs more purging.

again. It is done Decarboxylating after a short period of time. you dont need it at 250 after that. turn it down and you will slowly activate the cannabinoids and not degrade your oil in the process.

Again, 5-15 percent waxes is ALMOST PURE. The best bubble hash has a lot more waxes.

Also I did not say stinky, I said sticky. If it is sticky at room temp, you are doing it wrong. You may have read my friends graywolf's threads, it doesn't mean you are doing it right. I have read the same thread, multiple times. he is doing it right. his shatter and oils are not sticky, unless it is his winterzed oil, that is sticky because all waxes are removed as you suggested. I have some of his winterized oil right now. In fact I'm gonna go smoke it. while i make this pictorial for yall.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

If you extract from old partially decarboxylated material your extract will never harden up, so simply stating it was not done properly because of it being sticky is incorrect.

My absolute amber made from recently dried material produces a rock hard absolute that does not bend or pull only shatters with zero stickiness, same goes for my raw bho made from fresh material. I have to heat my dabber up to even get a dab to stick.

I said stinky because it stinks or in other words has a strong smell, I did not mean sticky.

I assure you I'm doing it right, thanks to fellow gw, jump and a organic chemist, along with years of hands on experience and experimenting.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

^you are doing very right. I was not arguing that, I was just saying out here there is a lot of people that read that thread and dont do it right. here is my pictorial and logic explained as requested.

After this the question becomes how long can you store them and how will they degrade in comparison to hash?


Ok so this is what I see like 90 percent of the time. it is this kinda opaque oil and it shatters. It is very bad and not purged though. Strain is cookies. super nice guy made it, but he needs some practice.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Here is budder. you can see in the upper right corner a piece that is darker and shiny. It is not purged right. The other stuff is purged just right. Literally 10 less seconds on heat and would not be properly purged, 10 more seconds on heat and it would have started to go to the oil state. In full oil state which is what we can refer to as shatter as long as you know that is real shatter and what I started with in the first picture is not real shatter just because it shatters.



here is finishing the purging process



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[Hash Zeppelin]

Here is is all done. this is true shatter form. When people hand me shatter it is this about 1 percent of the time.

Also where you are i am sure it shatters all the time. I live in the desert and so some times it is to warm for my shatter to shatter for me. most of the time is a bit softer. but if it gets down to about 75 degrees it shatters.



Here is winterized. not graywolf's though, but his buddies using his technique. I ran out of his stuff.

 

[Kush Technician]

weird I believe that fully purged BHO is indeed not sticky. This is what some refer to as "stable". I don't know why the pure oil would be liquid, but I bet if you left our your liquidy oil it would eventually harden, but you probably haven't ever let any dry out enough, what with producing ounces of if every week... Try not making such big batches and you wouldn't end up with watery oil.

So to recap, shatter, aka butane-free extract, should be solid and not sticky. If you leave it to dry in a thin enough layer, vacuuming and heat are not even needed, although I employ both because I don't want to leave it in the pan for a month, and because I don't have any spare sliding glass doors handy. In this form, the hash should be able to store well for over a year with little to no degradation, in my experience.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

so how long does this stuff store in comparison to hash? I would think removing the plant matter would prevent a lot of things that would lessen quality over time.