Everybody a breeder ?

[Tom Hill]

yes and that's one thing you could repeat, is the pollen doners input. IE, if you had an auto line that bred reletively true, you could grow a larger crop of it and save larger quantities of pollen. Then you could test that pollen across many "regular" plants, evaluate the outcome, then repeat with that regular mom on a larger scale.

 

[offthehook]

Sure but indoors is off limits for me, so it is what it is. Thanks for your toughts Mr Hill.

 

[Wendull C.]

Mr. Hill, Could you give any thoughts on the traits to look for in a male plant?

 

[canned abyss1]

@Indicadom & Tom

Great to have such a formidable breeders like you aboard.

Here, high up in the northern hemisphere we experience a severe lack of capable 'auto' breeders.

With all your knowledge and expertise, I'm sure you could point us in the right direction and tell us were to obtain your highly priced auto flowering genetics.



Common. Now please don't tell us to start reading and spent a life time reinventing the wheel ourselves.

I was hoping ppl like you would have paved us the way already.

Is any of you having connections out there at your level of expertise that are capable of delivering real distinct auto stuff.

All that has come my way thus far was merely rubbish.

Sorry for going off topic, but I felt like I had to snatch this opportunity.

(yeah I know, I sound like I'm trolling, maybe I'm not. Prolly I'm mostly curious at what you've got to say.)

The problem here with breeding and selecting for feno's is the low light intensity combined to cool temps & high humidity.
Other then size and mold resistence, I'd say all plants are pretty much the same in effect. Hence, I rather turn them all into hash and enjoy it that way.

If you look in my thread for spyder I think you might find what you are looking for. Spyder is a purple, sativa dominant, autoflowering, variety that I bred, yes I said bred, according to some I might not be a breeder because I don't have the same knowledge that they do or I didn't use 1000's of plants to reach my goal, but my strain is true breeding for many traits including, autoflowering, purple flowers, fruity smell and flavor, sativa dominant high, nice resin content, bud structure, and flowering time. I have taken these to the f9 generation and I feel that I have bred these. Also pollen chucking is not unique to cannabis there are non cannabis seed companies that make f1's and release them as f1 hybrids, this is done with corn and many other vegetables, Neville and other respected large number breeders released plenty of f1's why aren't these guys considered to be hacks or pollen chuckers. I don't believe it requires a lab coat and a college degree to breed good quality plants. As was stated people have been breeding plants for thousands of years, well before Mendel was born. If you doubt this just look at the plants that were bred in the new world, tomatoes, corn "maize", peppers, etc. This was done without the use of a punnet square. The problem that I see with pollen chucking is when the seeds are released before the progeny are even grown out to see what types of phenos show and the customer is not informed of this. Some people actually prefer numerous phenos but only when they are aware that they exist and they aren't surprised by them.

 

[indicadom]

If you look in my thread for spyder I think you might find what you are looking for. Spyder is a purple, sativa dominant, autoflowering, variety that I bred, yes I said bred, according to some I might not be a breeder because I don't have the same knowledge that they do or I didn't use 1000's of plants to reach my goal, but my strain is true breeding for many traits including, autoflowering, purple flowers, fruity smell and flavor, sativa dominant high, nice resin content, bud structure, and flowering time. I have taken these to the f9 generation and I feel that I have bred these. Also pollen chucking is not unique to cannabis there are non cannabis seed companies that make f1's and release them as f1 hybrids, this is done with corn and many other vegetables, Neville and other respected large number breeders released plenty of f1's why aren't these guys considered to be hacks or pollen chuckers. I don't believe it requires a lab coat and a college degree to breed good quality plants. As was stated people have been breeding plants for thousands of years, well before Mendel was born. If you doubt this just look at the plants that were bred in the new world, tomatoes, corn "maize", peppers, etc. This was done without the use of a punnet square. The problem that I see with pollen chucking is when the seeds are released before the progeny are even grown out to see what types of phenos show and the customer is not informed of this. Some people actually prefer numerous phenos but only when they are aware that they exist and they aren't surprised by them.

Tell me the price difference between f1 hybrids released by the produce industry and the prices in the cannabis industry? That is the difference. I am pretty sure Nevil was running 10,000 plants at a time for his selections. It doesn't require a college degree, but if you are a person with no motivation for self-study, you read one book a year, and could barely make it through high school...? Then you're going to have a difficult time grasping genetics. Since the foundation were classes you should of had in high school, like math, biology, and chemistry.

Oh my God...nobody is doubting ANYTHING about people making SELECTIONS in plants for thousands of years. Why do you people keep saying that over, and over? You clearly don't know what Punnett squares are used for, I suggest you go look them up again and study their application. I don't know many people who want to spend $100 on 10 seeds only to have no uniformity, and multiple "phenos".

 

[Happy 7]

Wow, 565 posts and not a single pic of a superior plant/variety that was bred by applying all that knowledge.
Kinda reminds me of the skinny legged guys at the gym lecturing everybody how to train legs most efficiently while the guys who use their legs instead of their mouths have legs like tree trunks.

The future is of course scientific breeding and distribution of 'tissue culture seeds'.
And I hear there are people who already have a business plan for that.
All that's left to do is convincing the masses that conventional breeding and old fashioned seeds are not good enough to get them what they want.

I for one am just happy that dumb luck beats real skill every time.

 

[Wendull C.]

Lots of folk know about Mendel and his pea pods. That doesn't make 'em breeders.

 

[Weird]

anyway yes Weird, I want to see where I said all that shit, or failed to explain and give examples of wtf I was talking about, are you sure you have the right guy, lol?

But yes please do take them one at a time if you would, thanks.

Tom I wanted to but after pouring through the thread I realized YOU BINNED THE POST where you called people with ten seeds imbeciles (or was it loathsome idiots)?

you can erase a post, but not the memories of those you offended, especially the ones who made a point to mention they were offended by it.

if you don't have the integrity to stand behind what you have said wrong or right it makes the integrity of everything you say questionable

obviously I can have a serious discussion about odds and percentages because after you bashed people running small numbers and then you back peddle in your this post

What I was trying to convey, is that 20 closet breeders added up starts to equal significant numbers, and so because of that, good things are bound to come from it sooner or later.

please show me all the other posts you've made to date extolling closet breeders anywhere here in masse or not

I guess that is your way of dignifying my last few posts regarding prohibition and the bias on plant count and that nifty little example with Tom A and Tom B (among others)

so seriously think i don't understand the odds your discussing?

do you think i also don't know that the odds don't dictate the rate at which you find them or at what stage of your search in which you find them?

in not contending your passion dedication experience or expertise I already said that is what sets you apart ... as a breeder

but if your gonna try to make yourself look better by making other people look inferior expect a big dose of relativity

If you can use math and science to come up with a ratio in which to find the best population, you can use math and science to gauge the frequency and the variance in those results

so if your gonna use your numbers to bash people at least use them to show them what they are missing out on

show the proof of your performance in other words put up or shut up

what are the differences in your upper 5% in terms of yield, reduced maturation, improved cannibinoids, flavinoids, outdoor environment, indoor environment climate or whatever criteria YOU select between the other 95% and tell me if the difference is exactly the same from the part of the 95% that is least like the top 5% versus the 95% that is most like the top 5%

anyone can weight plants to compare yield results, track time to maturation, smoke to test for flavinoids and cannbinoid profiles (they can even send them out to be sampled by gas cro)

so there has to be a quantifiable benefit to why you are doing things, and I don't doubt that this method is effective for you but
I do doubt that it is so powerful that only your breeding projects and others like it have worth

not only in regards to the quantifiable benefit but simply because of relativity (something no one addresses regardless of its influence)

see regardless of who the fucking breeder is if they aren't breeding something a particular individual wants the quality of the offering has no value

its that simple


if ANY BREEDER were GODS GIFT TO BREEDING no one would be growing anything but that breeders work, re branded, re bred or otherwise

that breeder might have more stable and offer better phenotypes than everyone else but if they aren't breeding something people want it is totally irrelevant

this is why a guy like SOFT or Rez had so much perceived value

not their methods but the genetics they were offering in the first place

and if the "big plant" breeders can't and don't hold all the genes that the market is interested in then the little guys offer value superior breeding methods or not

its really that simple

so while i don;t doubt your numbers Tom there are a whole bunch of factors i absolutely disagree in but im not here to play kids games

you want to discuss or debate shit im down, all day long, ill even play fair and by the numbers

you want to delete post and play games

enjoy your self

btw and off topic

happy easter

 

[frankenstein2]

Whaaaa!!!!!! What a huge dick measuring contest we have going here. My dick is bigger than all of yours.The 1000 seeds i made in my 3'x3'x6' homemade tent are way better than ANYONE'S seeds, and more potent, and i haven't even flowered them out. One thing i have noticed is that my darkstar male passes on his traits to whatever he touches. I've grown out quite a few plants, multiple strains too, where he is the father, and they all have taken on his look and structure. There how do you like me now. Everyone likes to make money, and it seems lots of people get jealous of that. Grow the fuck up, we are all here to enjoy ourselves. Not to girl fight about who can breed better, and who thinks what one person does is wrong.We are all individuals with our own ideas and practices, if you don't agree, cool. Get over it. I don't care how long anyone's been in the game. I could give my daughter a single bean, and it could be the next big thing. But say she posted on here, mofo's would be hatin' because it was a single seed made in a closet.

 

[Weird]

Don't dismiss the power or wisdom of Tom's words, Tom is hedging odds because its smart

yes but nearly all traits truly valued by the farmer (you named a couple, yield, effect) fall into an entirely different category (polygenetics/quantitative trait loci/biometrical genetics). Yield comprises 5+ specific traits, effect even more, the maths/odds become that of a small lottery. And nobody who has an incling of how it all works would ever lay that there jive above in this thread down (that others have). The whole thing is offensive to me to be honest, got a bunch of clowns who have no clue what it is we are even talking about trying to dictate what they have no clue of, is worth. To say I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it is a gross understatement.

this means hes improving his odds over the odds the odds most cannabis was bred by

but the real TRUTH is hes improving his chances not reducing anyone else's

and his "golden ratio" technique IS NOT responsible for a majority of the strains people find valuable

but boy when he talks that big talk it makes you think he reinvented the weed

thats ego

I have a different take on it all

if you haven't grown good enough pot to put your ego in check you dont know shit about breeding medicine

flame away

 

[canned abyss1]

Tell me the price difference between f1 hybrids released by the produce industry and the prices in the cannabis industry? That is the difference. I am pretty sure Nevil was running 10,000 plants at a time for his selections. It doesn't require a college degree, but if you are a person with no motivation for self-study, you read one book a year, and could barely make it through high school...? Then you're going to have a difficult time grasping genetics. Since the foundation were classes you should of had in high school, like math, biology, and chemistry.

Oh my God...nobody is doubting ANYTHING about people making SELECTIONS in plants for thousands of years. Why do you people keep saying that over, and over? You clearly don't know what Punnett squares are used for, I suggest you go look them up again and study their application. I don't know many people who want to spend $100 on 10 seeds only to have no uniformity, and multiple "phenos".

The difference is that the produce companies can grow without worrying about going to jail or the fear of someone stealing their whole crop. What part of this plant is illegal in most parts of the world don't you guys understand, running large numbers and breeding like the people that aren't regulated is not practical or even feasible in most cases, and who said that I don't know what a punnett square, that is just you making jackass assumptions. You appear to be a condescending douche nozzle with book smarts that has to prove to the world how awesome you are. I am not questioning the validity of the breeding methods that you favor, but you seem to have a problem with anyone who does it different than what you feel is the correct method. If using large numbers was a superior way then why aren't these guys producing strains that are far superior to anything else. Where is the super pot, you know the stuff that will make me not want to grow anything else, I have yet to see it.

 

[FOE20]

whoa..Golden ratio?....I like that...heh....but also the "golden mean" or the "spiral"...
think about that for a sec....this topic..and the relation to the golden spiral..heh..
1.61803398875....looks stupid as a #no....but rep's the eye of beauty...
"In philosophy, especially that of Aristotle, the golden mean is the desirable middle between two extremes, one of excess and the other of deficiency."

"Another approximation is a Fibonacci spiral, which is constructed similarly to the above method except that you start with a rectangle partitioned into 2 squares and then in each step add to the rectangle's longest side a square of the same length. Since the ratio between consecutive fibonacci numbers approaches the golden ratio as the Fibonacci numbers approach infinity, so too does this spiral get more similar to the previous approximation the more squares are added."

I feel we are all in the spiral..some are spiraling Out while others are spiraling In ward...Some assume that some don't understand the spiral they are on whether mathematical or applied..
Now when a closet Hack knows the Lines he's workin no matter how many #s are involved. IMO it def increases the "Odds"...
When that Hack understands the Flowering and maturation cycle of that variety the chances increase more..Were talkin no#s but were all so impossibly incompetent with the "Maths"...When that Hack understands the Parent lines and works to a Particular Goal?...Its Golden...
I agree with the fact that the over excess of hobby breeding is not helping the Pools...
At the same time the orig LRace lines weren't all exactly "Choice"....
Matters where you were...what you had access to and what you have tried and known of in the past to relate to...
I'll stick to analog while others wait on that digital genetic breakdown to prove themselves right or wrong...
Breeders don;t mean shit in my book....
If they dont know Thai, Durban or Lumbos, etc then they don't know Haze, Blues, Affi-Sk, or even Skunk itself,....now try Math on that...
and Kush....lol....why bother...those Cali folk have screwed the Kush pool by word of mouth and their wide hype name polly chuckin pimp slap hand....
and they turn a shoulder and then say...You don't know jack...
I get it...its all about the 100% Pure's...which is Impossible...
Just don't tell me that a Cube is stable or even that a IBL is 100% Pure....cause its def bs in any book...
Deep Chunk ( from the 70's!.....released as a IBL in the 90's?...I never heard of DC till 2k...and why isnt' it called Deep Afghan then?..)
Brand: Kingdom Organic ??.....ouch....who's KOrganics?...sounds like a Shop...not a "Breeder"...
Genetics: 100% Indica Pure Afghan Hashplant
Strain Type: 100% Indica
Flowering Time: 7 - 8 weeks
Sex: Regular
Environment: indoor & Outdoor
Filial Generation: F1

This may be a decent outline for the variety....but how correct is it Truly?...My prob is...a Afghan 7-8wks?....yea sure....maybe a Afghan Kush....but what do I know about that?...
"Purists and Maths"....this topic will be brutal...but I kinda like Chaos theory myself...keep rockin them skulls!
FOE20

 

[rhinoman 1]

Hey Wierd, Thanx for stickin up for us punk imbiciles who still grow in moms basement.

 

[offthehook]

"so please tell me again how people breeding in small numbers are imbeciles for doing so" let's just slow down there Weird and take it one at a time. Yes, Show me where I said that ^^^ for starters.

Wierd has been making some very valid points and I enjoyed reading most of his posts a lot.

But this peticular Post from Tom that has now got deleted I remember very well, and I must state that Tom was not flatout insulting closet growers.

I donno why you deleted that post Tom, as there was nothing wrong with it.

It was just a way of getting your point across on a somewhat blatant way, though I do not see how it could have offended anyone.

quote Tom:What I was trying to convey, is that 20 closet breeders added up starts to equal significant numbers, and so because of that, good things are bound to come from it sooner or later. Unquote.

This was also how I took this peticular post.

The part where he used the word 'imbiciles' was set in a hypotetical/metaphorical context and appeared to me like he was trying to emphasize bridging his point across.

I'm impartial to anyone but felt needing to point thisone out.

 

[CHillTowneGenes]

hey rhino 1,

start from the top and make your mind up, because i am a micro grower as well and i felt no heat from tom. i felt no group attack, or personal for that matter. come to think of it the whole argument when i reread from the top seems a disagreement, misunderstanding, or maybe even a misinterpretation... or a clashing of 2 egos, but dont let me tell you what i got from my perspective. check it out for yourself and come to your own conclusion... i like it when they say stuff over my head gives me some things to research. i dont like what im hearing about these autos tom... although ive thought about it alot and came to simpler versions of similar decisions about them... ill probably have to buy a botany book... let you gents get back to the good variety of banter por favor??

 

[offthehook]

erase post, reason: misunderstanding.

 

[rhinoman 1]

hey chilltown, been reading this from the beginnin as a guest. and not yer average micro grower here.

 

[Tom Hill]

Tom I wanted to but after pouring through the thread I realized YOU BINNED THE POST where you called people with ten seeds imbeciles (or was it loathsome idiots)?

you can erase a post, but not the memories of those you offended, especially the ones who made a point to mention they were offended by it.

if you don't have the integrity to stand behind what you have said wrong or right it makes the integrity of everything you say questionable

obviously I can have a serious discussion about odds and percentages because after you bashed people running small numbers and then you back peddle in your this post

please show me all the other posts you've made to date extolling closet breeders anywhere here in masse or not

I guess that is your way of dignifying my last few posts regarding prohibition and the bias on plant count and that nifty little example with Tom A and Tom B (among others)

so seriously think i don't understand the odds your discussing?

do you think i also don't know that the odds don't dictate the rate at which you find them or at what stage of your search in which you find them?

in not contending your passion dedication experience or expertise I already said that is what sets you apart ... as a breeder

but if your gonna try to make yourself look better by making other people look inferior expect a big dose of relativity

If you can use math and science to come up with a ratio in which to find the best population, you can use math and science to gauge the frequency and the variance in those results

so if your gonna use your numbers to bash people at least use them to show them what they are missing out on

show the proof of your performance in other words put up or shut up

what are the differences in your upper 5% in terms of yield, reduced maturation, improved cannibinoids, flavinoids, outdoor environment, indoor environment climate or whatever criteria YOU select between the other 95% and tell me if the difference is exactly the same from the part of the 95% that is least like the top 5% versus the 95% that is most like the top 5%

anyone can weight plants to compare yield results, track time to maturation, smoke to test for flavinoids and cannbinoid profiles (they can even send them out to be sampled by gas cro)

so there has to be a quantifiable benefit to why you are doing things, and I don't doubt that this method is effective for you but
I do doubt that it is so powerful that only your breeding projects and others like it have worth

not only in regards to the quantifiable benefit but simply because of relativity (something no one addresses regardless of its influence)

see regardless of who the fucking breeder is if they aren't breeding something a particular individual wants the quality of the offering has no value

its that simple


if ANY BREEDER were GODS GIFT TO BREEDING no one would be growing anything but that breeders work, re branded, re bred or otherwise

that breeder might have more stable and offer better phenotypes than everyone else but if they aren't breeding something people want it is totally irrelevant

this is why a guy like SOFT or Rez had so much perceived value

not their methods but the genetics they were offering in the first place

and if the "big plant" breeders can't and don't hold all the genes that the market is interested in then the little guys offer value superior breeding methods or not

its really that simple

so while i don;t doubt your numbers Tom there are a whole bunch of factors i absolutely disagree in but im not here to play kids games

you want to discuss or debate shit im down, all day long, ill even play fair and by the numbers

you want to delete post and play games

enjoy your self

btw and off topic

happy easter

Yeah that's about as sharp as your other realizations in this thread too. Fact is I did not bin anything I don't have that power, and fact is no, I did not erase anything either. Anyway you would have been wrong, missunderstood, or have taken it out of context. Just like you quoting me last time (that was caveman, not chinese by the way) was my direct response to some guy likening my comments to that of a rambling homeless person that he couldn't understand. Seriously dude, it says a lot that you have to dig that deep.

I answered the op clearly on page 11 in my first few posts in this thread - "but to answer the question, yes, in my opinion, the more the better, clowns included, the maths are favored in that scenario imo. It's why no breeder who really cares about the plant, imo, should ever have a problem with others using their work as they see fit, it's the best case for cannabis, of course I understand the other side too, but alla ratatouille, anybody can cook."

extolling are your words (what I said was I had a hard time bashing them as hard as some others do), but I am starting to get used to you attempting to put words in my mouth - it's not happening man. Nor will I spend time yanking up all others to date etc, nor will I respond to things you're writing (and that list is long) which I feel are just lala off topic garble that you've somehow mistaken as important factors.

If you do not understand and refuse to investigate how applying proven techniques can up your game I really do not see that as my problem, though sadly, cannabis will suffer imo. I do what I can to help from time to time, but no, it's not on me to jump through these hoops you'd like to set up for me. It appears to me that yes, you are here to play games.

 

[Tom Hill]

And where you're right is that people will go to breeders because said breeders have a particular pedigree in the line up, availability I think you refered to it as. But where many are wrong is that art has anything to fucking do with it. I had this conversation with Rez once (he's actually a nice guy and intelligent enough to not be taking this as personally as some of you are), and actually gifted him the books I recommended earlier, explaining to him that he could genotype his stock via selfing and have a better idea of what would work well or not before going into those long backcrossing trips he was on. Last I saw him he was running off book in hand to go buy some STS.

 

[new3]

selfing sounds dirty