Everybody a breeder ?

[Sativa Dragon]

Seems like we are back to buying beens from a reputable source and do your homework. I would never call one keeper out of Ten success, I call that getting F**ked in the *ss without a Trojan. If I buy from a reputable companie I expect them to be all the same, I will tolerate some minor differences in the Pheno as long as they tell me before I buy that these differences will show up then I can make an informed decision.

Peace

 

[Tom Hill]

and yet, getting one out of ten is x4 what science is allowed to expect from drug cannabis. You guys can't just change cannabis into tomatoes because you in your cluelessness of the science, feel like it. I would love whores to rain down on me okay go!! ,,,but I am afraid that's not how it works.

 

[5th]

and yet, getting one out of ten is x4 what science is allowed to expect from drug cannabis.

....so I should be getting forty seeds for my $100 then? You know, incase of a worst case scenario? TomHill for president.

 

[Tom Hill]

We'll give em to you for free, just as soon as you cheap bastards pay me for my time here. But yeah if your not looking at the top 5% of individuals grown from seed (yeah that's 1 of 40 m/f) then you are doing yourself and cannabis and everybody who smokes it a grave disservice. That's the truth of drug cannabis from seed, on average, ime.

 

[SooperSmurph]

When a lucky small timer does something amazing it actually seems to do damage to the seed industry, because it creates false assumptions about how much work breeding really is.

 

[Infinitesimal]

has anyone here grown citrus or apple trees from seed?

it takes hundreds if not thousands of seed trees to find a keeper then cuttings of that keeper tree are taken and they are graphed onto saplings to form the varieties grown by most farmers and the ones found at your local nursery...

so one keeper from 40 seeds is what can be expected though, and relative to fruit trees is pretty good, sometimes you either get lucky or the strain may happen to be kick ass and you can expect a keeper from ten or less... but most times you won't... and is why the closet chucker who pops 5 seeds selects 1 out of 4 females and pollinates it with the one male... isn't doing anyone a service (except maybe with endangered lines) and definitely isn't doing any work

 

[5th]

I'm not talking about the breeder not making any money. Just increasing their customers odds is all.

If 5th_seeds_Inc. was trying to flog OGfruitberrycoughKushsel, and the breeder was showing me pics of colas the size of pop bottles in a SOG grow...well I'd want 1/10 of the seeds to make a plant that looks like that is all.

Now I'm reading 1/40 chance... maybe?

So let me see if I got this right because I'm obviously not as smart as you guys...I research, find out OGfruitberrycoughKushsel is perfect for my lower back pain, insomnia, and chronic masturbation.
I buy a pack of seeds, hope for a good germ rate. Allocate room, lights, nutes....well a whole fucking grow spot and all costs incured actually...grow said seeds out, dry, cure, smoke.
Out of the 4/10 seeds that were female, none had the desired effect I was hoping(read paid) for. So...I buy another pack n' hope for the best? Again?

 

[Tom Hill]

you bought into a bunch of crap that was sold to you not even by breeders, certainly not me, but by a bunch of know-nothing-clowns who'd have nerve to charge anything at all for their seed. It's damn sure not what you SHOULD be expecting, not from drug cannabis seed. You have zero reason to expect one of ten to look like that, this is not how cannabis works, yes 1 in 40, maybe. Yes you have it right, hopefully, I am trying to be as clear and as honest as I can. Your research comes up way short no "strain" is perfect for anything, that's all missunderstood bullshit, only individuals are good for this or that, the other 39, are crap to you, and this is exactly what you should expect, all you should have ever expected, and all you should ever expect from drug cannabis seed,, welcome to reality.

 

[Infinitesimal]

So let me see if I got this right because I'm obviously not as smart as you guys...I research, find out OGfruitberrycoughKushsel is perfect for my lower back pain, insomnia, and chronic masturbation.
I buy a pack of seeds, hope for a good germ rate. Allocate room, lights, nutes....well a whole fucking grow spot and all costs incured actually...grow said seeds out, dry, cure, smoke.
Out of the 4/10 seeds that were female, none had the desired effect I was hoping(read paid) for. So...I buy another pack n' hope for the best? Again?

it all depends...

if the strain was actually bred and stabilized for those traits (though effects and yield are really subjective) then you should be able to find a keeper with those traits within a small population... but they would be expensive seeds...

or if they were not selectively bred and stabilized for those traits then, they should be CHEAP and, you should buy 4-5 packs at once to reasonably expect to find the truly awesome pheno that you desire...

and that is the difference between real breeding projects and making seeds... if all of the potential father plants were used in test crosses and selections made from those results lead to the next filial generation and that process is repeated for 3 or more generations then if done well that line should be stable and you should be able to find keepers easy... but again those would take time, effort, money and knowhow in order to produce and therefor would be very expensive ($15 - $20 or more per seed) ... So instead, what you see in the market place are a bunch of simple hybrids (F1s and "poly's") that are comparatively affordable ($6 - $10 per seed) but relatively lower quality compared to the well selected and well bred lines because most people usually just found a male that they "think" would be good and pollinate some females they may like or may produce a lot and BAM they have some "new" strain for market.


just for example,

I try and buy at least 40 - 50 seeds (when possible) of every strain I am interested in, even the higher quality more expensive ones... and in reality $400 - $800 dollars isn't that much to spend, IMO, for a life time supply of the right medicine once you find the keeper and clone her over and over plus make back up seed stock with her (F2s,3s,BXs etc.)

hope that helps.
Peace,
Infi

 

[Infinitesimal]

you bought into a bunch of crap that was sold to you not even by breeders, certainly not me, but by a bunch of know-nothing-clowns who'd have nerve to charge anything at all for their seed. It's damn sure not what you SHOULD be expecting, not from drug cannabis seed. You have zero reason to expect one of ten to look like that, this is not how cannabis works, yes 1 in 40, maybe. Yes you have it right, hopefully, I am trying to be as clear and as honest as I can. Your research comes up way short no "strain" is perfect for anything, that's all missunderstood bullshit, only individuals are good for this or that, the other 39, are crap to you, and this is exactly what you should expect, all you should have ever expected, and all you should ever expect from drug cannabis seed,, welcome to reality.

hey tom,

isn't it possible for a strain be selected to breed true and be at least fairly homogenous for say between 3-5 specific traits, when properly selected individuals are worked over time?

 

[hup234]

All this thread proves is that clones are the only true ,honest way to sell ...no wasted money on one in forty chance,no wasted time waiting for germination...now how do I get that in the mail

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

?

?

boho has an opinion on how cheap it is to makes seeds.
i bristle at things like this because everyones situation is different and what you never hear tell of is growers time in the garden. no business survives unless they understand their assets and liabilities and if a business owner doesnt factor in hours spent working then theyre fools. i have a couple college level biz courses under my belt and my own woodworking biz and i am trying to make it work. it hasnt worked because my hours spent dont equal what i charge. operating expences HAVE to include hours spent in actual labor. i blasted russ belevue for complaining about high prices of flowers when he was saying it only costs 10 bux an oz to produce. i wouldnt hash up 10$/oz buds let alone smoke daily. ignorance is bliss but ignorance doesnt pay my electricity. whether im making seed or flowers i spend about 4 hours a day in my garden or doing grow related chores. then there is my real business and then there is this thing you all are talking about and you guys are so very sure of what youre saying while admitting also that things are changing and no one can really tell how the "industry" will turn out. you can tell who relies on their grow to pay their bills and those thatre fanboy elitest opinionated hobbiests by the posts. the seed companies arent reflective of an operating system, theyre destined to fail. the dutch have known this since the very beginning too. ed rosenthal reported in an old '88 htcc issue of hightimes that dutch breeders cross 2 diverse variety to make an f1 in order to protect their parent stock from being hacked. theyve been pirating each other since the beginning and their interests are more in that game than in love for a plant, any plant. it is like arguing about shopping at walmart or the mainstreet general store and hardware. it is the exact same thing.
peas,
pwf

it seems to me that what your not realizing is that you have to have a plan for your business and IMO if you don't plan it properly then your going to always find yourself on the short end of the stick at the end of the day.

it sounds like your saying that a person should factor in the amount of time spent on how much work they put in BUT if what your factoring in causes you to price yourself out of the market that your in, then you would need to become more efficient in how you do what you do and.

and its kinda "fucktardish" to say that one can tell who grows for what reasons by their opinions since that's always going to be a variable since everyone grows for all types of reasons but that doesn't mean that they should not expect a quality product.

if it takes "model A" to perform a task in half the time that it takes "model B" to perform the same task then isn't there something that model B could learn from model A?

I do my damndest to not spend that much time in my garden, and its called "dialing things in" coupled with the old saying "K.I.S.S." the time you spend in your garden is your own damned fault not mine, as a consumer, so why should I pay for what you "think" is necessary to do when in retrospect some tasks that are performed are completely redundant and useless. if your tacking your labor to what you charge for your seeds then I want to know what the fuck do you do that requires such a high price? and better yet what can be done to make it more efficient and cheaper, less time you spend at it, less you can charge and the more attractive it is to me; more attractive it is to me, the more seeds I want to buy from you.

you've got 25+lbs of weed to trim and with AAAALL the trimmers that are out there YOU choose to do it all by hand and you want me to pay for it? fuck that and fuck you. theres even more reason to go a head and not only grow your own but breed your own.

if its not back ally/ hood rat/ ghetto tactic bullshit to cause you to grow your own NOW we've got sleezy/ dumbass business practices in the mix causing ppl to breed their own . . .

since when did growing this plant become such a fucked up thing to get into?

Seeds is simple, you find a keeper then the whole pack was worth it.

And to beg your indulgence, when just 1/10 condom experiences are satisfactory, the whole box was worth it.

nah fam, that's some bullshit logic right there. so from what your saying its safe to say that if I get 9 women pregnant out of ten BECUASE i spent "x amount" of dollars on a box of condoms that it was worth it? isn't that a "x amount" of dollars lost because of the shitty condoms ESPECIALLY if they are name brand/quality condoms?

and as far as seed goes, my dude, if im spending $100+ dollars on your seeds, then you'd better have a better fucking ratio than "a seed" popping out of 10-15. and all you wanna give me is 10 -15 of them to boot? man, fuck them all, just give me some bag seeds, i'll be aaaaaaall right

for me one great example is soma's seeds. this was a whiiiile back, now I wanted to order some seeds from this dude, and hes charging that 100 - 200 price range that im talking about (this was before he lowered his prices). so I go on his thread and ppl are cussin him out demanding explanation as to why these seeds are so expensive, so his logic is that because he has an organic grow then it takes more time and attention . . . WHAT? . . . dude your growing seeds, why in the world do I have to pay for how YOOOOOU breed your seeds?!?!?!

that's like a mechanic charging you for, parts labor, use of the garage and the most expensive thing on the bill is because he used a "special" wrench. he could have used any other wrench BUT because HE/SHE WANTED to use THAT SPECIFIC WRENCH for the job then I have to pay for THAT?! the fuck outta here yo

 

[Tom Hill]

hey tom,

isn't it possible for a strain be selected to breed true and be at least fairly homogenous for say between 3-5 specific traits, when properly selected individuals are worked over time?

yes but nearly all traits truly valued by the farmer (you named a couple, yield, effect) fall into an entirely different category (polygenetics/quantitative trait loci/biometrical genetics). Yield comprises 5+ specific traits, effect even more, the maths/odds become that of a small lottery. And nobody who has an incling of how it all works would ever lay that there jive above in this thread down (that others have). The whole thing is offensive to me to be honest, got a bunch of clowns who have no clue what it is we are even talking about trying to dictate what they have no clue of, is worth. To say I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it is a gross understatement.

 

[Greenfireseeds]

I like your negative adult use towards us nobody's...flip that around and make a positive encouragement or even lead by example and show ME us how it's done!!!!

J52

 

[Tom Hill]

sure, and what's it worth to you, I know, fiddy cent right? lol

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

All this thread proves is that clones are the only true ,honest way to sell ...no wasted money on one in forty chance,no wasted time waiting for germination...now how do I get that in the mail

one aspect to solve the breeder problem, and i totally friggin agree!!!! and sending clones, has, does, will and can be done!!!

im telling you, get some cuts, no roots and set your table up at the farmers market off to the side. just let the freshly cut clones sit in cups/containers of nutrient water. a person could make a damned killing!!!

how you do the same damned thing that nature does and then want to charge for it and call it a "phenol" like its some special shit? man, fuck breeders.

and sometimes I hate to hear them whining; " oh you don't know what it takes", "its a lot harder than what you think" sound like a bunch of stupid fucking kids. how do you choose a career that you "say" you love BUT when it comes time to do what is necessary within that career, you bitch and moan?!?!? if its causing you to be a whiny lil bitch then that profession aint for you, ESPECIALLY if your not willing to put in the proper dedication necessary to qualify you as a substantial figure within that capacity!

 

[Infinitesimal]

yes but nearly all traits truly valued by the farmer (you named a couple, yield, effect) fall into an entirely different category (polygenetics/quantitative trait loci/biometrical genetics). Yield comprises 5+ specific traits, effect even more, the maths/odds become that of a small lottery. And nobody who has an incling of how it all works would ever lay that there jive above in this thread down (that others have). The whole thing is offensive to me to be honest, got a bunch of clowns who have no clue what it is we are even talking about trying to dictate what they have no clue of, is worth. To say I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it is a gross understatement.

understood...

like how most people think that human eye color is simply a matter of brown eyes are dominant (B) and blue eyes are recessive (b) so BB are brown Bb are brown and bb will result in blue eyes... when in reality eye color is determined by multiple genes not just a single loci and allele pair.


I hope I wasn't to blasphemous in my thoughts about breeding

thanks for the insight,

 

[Greenfireseeds]

I bet Tom likes wearing military clothing and talking shit online...nah

 

[astartes]

I'll bet Tom has both the knowledge and experience to back up said shit-talking too!

a.

 

[Greenfireseeds]

I don't talk shit.